Cork to Limerick rail improvements

marno21

www.corklimerick.ie shows recommendations for improved rail services between Cork and Limerick as part of the M/N20 scheme.

Discuss away here

Sam Russell

They appear to favour via LJ to cut 20 mins off transit with hourly direct service.

Hibernicis

Some resources

Cork Line Level Crossings Project

This will allow faster running for all trains on the Cork-Limerick Junction line. In scope is the replacement of the remaining seven level crossings on the line. Current status - IE have applied to ABP for a Railway Order (equivalent to Planning Permission)

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/About-Us/Iarnrod-Eireann-Projects-and-Investments/Cork-Line-Level-Crossings-Project

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/cork-line-level-crossings-project/railway-order

Cork Line Rehabilitation Project

This will allow faster running for all trains on the Cork-Dublin line. Current status - multi annual funding approved.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/0c427-minister-ryan-announces-additional-funding-for-heavy-rail/

Limerick-Limerick Junction Double Tracking

This is discussed in the following Oireachtas committee meetings, towards the end in both cases. Current status - IE conducting scoping exercise. To be considered as part of the All Island Strategic Rail Review. Per Jim Meade (CEO IE) there is approx 30km of track to be laid, and the high level cost estimate is €60m-€80m. Iarnrod Eireann believe that it may be possible to treat this as an engineering project and thereby avoid the need for a Railway Order. (Because they are relaying the second track, so there is no land acquisition etc). Timeframe is 4 years to completion once funding is approved (2 years for design etc and 18 months for delivery)

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_and_communications_networks/2021-02-16/2/

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_transport_and_communications/2022-02-17/2/

Ireland trains

“service improvemnt is listed as follows:

• Current Journey Time - 1 Hr 43 mins
• With Line Improvements - 1 Hr 31 mins (I'm assuming this is the "Cork Line Level Crossings Project" and the "Cork Line Rehabilitation Project")
• Option RS1 - 1 Hr 21 mins (introduction of new trains to allow a no-change service)”
• 10 minutes seems like a big time saving for just running a train through LJ (inc time saved from not needing to transfer).

Sam Russell

It would be great if they could get Limerick to Cork to be under 60 mins. It is about 105 km, so it could be done with high speed trains. That would make it competitive with cars, and certainly with the bus services. 1 Hr 20 mins would be OK, but requires at least 3 trains to provide the service, which would be OK, and allow a stop at LJ.

pigtown

It's funny how an indirect route for the road was ridiculed but an indirect route for rail is perfectly acceptable.

Geuze

"Timeframe is 4 years to completion once funding is approved (2 years for design etc and 18 months for delivery)"

Two years to design an extra track beside an existing track, over 30km.

Seems very long?

Was it originally double-tracked?

L1011

It was originally double tracked. I'd expect the current track was slewed in to the middle of the alignment though which makes re-doubling much slower. This was the case Clonsilla-Maynooth which is the last redoubling I can think of.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118857725#Comment_118857725

Not really. A direct route would reduce distance by perhaps 20 km, and cost €€€€€€€€, while double tracking, sorting level crossings and LJ layout, give just as good a result for trains, and improved connectivity by reducing travel times. For example, a stop at LJ allows for improved Lk to Dub as well as Dub Lk, while giving direct Lk to Ck.

Trains go from A to B, with very limited stopping. Motorways provide much greater connectivity as cars, buses and trucks can join the motorway and leave as they like. They can start from wherever and continue to their final destination, using the motorway where it suits.

Different model entirely for trains. A direct link would gain little and cost lots.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118857744#Comment_118857744

Yes, the whole line from Limerick to Limerick Junction was double track but was singled from Killonan Junction (where the Nenagh/Ballybrophy line diverges) to Limerick Junction. In many cases where a double line was singled, the new line was laid in the centre of the trackbed so it might be necessary to adjust the alignment of the existing track too. I don’t know if this is the case on this stretch.

pigtown

Seems to have been moved to the centre near Limerick anyway

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118857766#Comment_118857766

A route via the Junction can't possibly give just as good a result for trains considering it's longer. A direct route may not be financially sensible but it's certainly a better option for passengers.

As for improving connectivity, I'm almost certain that every Dublin Cork train already stops at the Junction with a connection to Limerick so it would be the same number of departures as now. I would expect that the current shuttle would be replaced by the Limerick-Cork train, meaning that there wouldn't be any additional connections between the three cities as there are now, barring perhaps an early morning one getting you into the cities before 9.

As it happens, I would prefer that the city suburban lines be upgraded before money is spent on a new direct rail line, I just thought it was worth pointing out the double standards when it comes to the two modes.

ricimaki

Between Killonan and Boher, the track seems to either be on the south side or in the center. Between Boher and Monard, the track seems to be very much on the north side, with visible space for the southern track. If the majority of the route is on one side, it should hopefully make it a much easier task with less disruption required to double-track.

The largest works would be the 2 area's where the rail line crosses the N24 on either side of Oola, if they don't already have space for twin tracking.

Its unlikely to happen, but electrifying the line here would be great. It covers a decent portion of the Cork-Dublin line, and when combined with electrification around both Dublin and Cork, gets us on the right track for electric intercity trains.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118858011#Comment_118858011

They are different modes. Just as aircraft routing is different for trains and for ferries.

Also, it is likely that there will be a direct Cork Limerick once per hour, plus one connecting with the Cork Dublin train, perhaps also once per hour. Of course, this will be under the assumption there is the passenger traffic to justify it. If that does not happen, then it will all be a waste.

Rail succeeds when it is fast, frequent, and reliable. Irish Rail do not have a good history for this - but this would be a good occasion to show that they can do it right.

A direct route would be next to impossible with the NIMBY opposition that would be generated. If it is non-stop or limited stop, what is gained by a direct route? Hardly time, as the Dub Cork line is undergoing speed improvements, and the double track will also be done to the highest speed.

You are talking about an extra 20 Km, which at an average of 120 km/h is 10 mins. That assumes that the 'direct' route is actually shorter than the route via LJ. Do you expect the 'direct' route to visit Charleville and Mallow? How much would that add to the route?

The key target should be to get the end to end time under 60 mins, including turn around so an hourly service could be offered that only requires two trains.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118857517#Comment_118857517

I think you are asking me to comment on the time saving based on a direct “no change” service. Looking at tomorrow’s timetable for the Cork to Limerick route, the waiting times are as follows:

Depart Cork 07:00, Limerick Junction wait time 12 mins

Depart Cork 08:00, Limerick Junction wait time 19 mins

Depart Cork 09:25, Limerick Junction wait time 18 mins

Depart Cork 10:25, Limerick Junction wait time 12 mins

Depart Cork 11:25, Limerick Junction wait time 18 mins

Depart Cork 12:25, Limerick Junction wait time 15 mins

Depart Cork 13:25, Limerick Junction wait time 15 mins

Depart Cork 14:25, Limerick Junction wait time 16 mins

Depart Cork 15:25, Limerick Junction wait time 12 mins

Depart Cork 16:25, Limerick Junction wait time 10 mins

Depart Cork 17:25, Limerick Junction wait time 09 mins

Depart Cork 18:25, Limerick Junction wait time 14 mins

Depart Cork 19:25, Limerick Junction wait time 22 mins

Depart Cork 20:25, Limerick Junction wait time 77 mins !!!

Based on the above, and ignoring the outliers, a saving of 10 mins on average appears to be achievable. There are obviously other scheduling issues that impact on this (sharing of single line to Limerick, connections with the Dublin Cork down service etc. But eliminating the change of trains is the easiest win. It also makes the service much more appealing for the user.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118857725#Comment_118857725

I’m not sure that it was ridiculed. The figures presented this morning indicated that the direct route would attract a net additional 1,100 passengers per day, at a cost in the region of half a billion euro, all of them transferring from bus services. There is no possibility of creating a business case for this.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118857744#Comment_118857744

It was originally double tracked. This appears very clearly on OSI’s 25in map (1897-1913). Second track lifted in later years. At a guess I’d say the remaining line was moved towards the centre of the available space when the old tracks and sleepers were replaced with Continuous Welded Track (CWT).

Two years to prepare engineering designs, contract documents, invite tenders and award contracts sounds reasonable to me.

Deedsie

How would they deal with the track layout at Kilonan junction?

There is a level crossing on the public road, a signal box and the curve off towards Nenagh on the Limerick-Ballybrophy via Nenagh line.

Presumably some major changes will be required to the layout here. Particularly how the Nenagh line joins on to the newly double tracked LK-LJ line.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859224#Comment_118859224

It would just be remodelled to a double track line with a new crossover and junction.

Not rocket science!

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118858702#Comment_118858702

Any talk of anything less than a direct motorway was widely ridiculed. Even yesterday a Fine Gael td/senator? called on the taoiseach to ensure the new road was entirely motorway.

Where did you get the half a billion figure? I didn't notice any costings in yesterday's documents.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118858011#Comment_118858011

It would make no sense for the Limerick-Cork train to replace the shuttle between Limerick and Limerick Junction.

Such a service would ideally be scheduled to split the 60 minute gap in Dublin-Cork services between Limerick Junction & Cork thus giving a half-hourly service along that section of the line.

It means a minimum of two trains an hour in each direction between Limerick and Limerick Junction. That will need extra track capacity to deliver a reliable and fast service.

With potentially more freight being added if the Foynes branch reopens, doubling the line is a no-brainer.

pigtown

Does that imply that the existing ~hourly Limerick-Cork route with a change at the Junction would be retained, and another ~hourly direct route would be added? Effectively providing a rail link between the two cities twice every hour?

With a projected ridership of 700 a day that seems like a lot.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859553#Comment_118859553

There does seem to be a building West of the level crossing with a transmitter tower etc. Will this not complicate the continuation of the double track the currently is in place on the Western side of Killonan junction?

AngryLips

700 per day sounds like a shockingly low number considering there'll be, what, 24 services per day as a result of an additional hourly service? They're effectively saying that they expect only 30 people to catch each train. Any hope I might have had for the all island strategic rail review is pretty much gone in light of this recommendation being made to that review board. It's a sign of the total lack of ambition for railway infrastructure if the Government can't build a railway line between two main cities while also building a motorway along the same path. You have to wonder what kind of analysis was done as part of the rail element in this assessment if they factor in zero modal shift from cars at a time when a main Government priority is to decarbonise the environment and attract modal shift away from cars.

Hibernicis

You both misunderstand the figure of 700. This is the increase in passenger numbers which can be anticipated if the journey time is reduced, not the total passenger number. And it was stated that this increase is the result of a modal shift from bus, not road.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859566#Comment_118859566

There will also hopefully be additional services added to the timetable on the Limerick - Ballybrophy via Nenagh line from next year. Probably middle of the day service in both directions to start with. So from Killonan Junction into Colbert will hopefully carry those additional services too. Not much in the grand scheme but that section is going to be a lot busier in the future.

Hibernicis

@pigtown Where did you get the half a billion figure? I didn't notice any costings in yesterday's documents.

When asked about the cost of double tracking the Limerick-Limerick Junction line Jim Meade, in one of the links I supplied above, said “A high level estimate would be somewhere in the €60 million to €80 million bracket for the complete project.”

in yesterday’s announcement it was stated that “the infrastructure costs for RS2a and RS2b are almost seven times higher than RS1”

Seven times €60 million - €80 million is half a billion approx.

Expunge

Are there any chance of a few knock on benefits from this plan to the Waterford - Limerick Junction line?

A few more services per day in both directions perhaps?

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859959#Comment_118859959

Why would they state only the increase in passenger numbers brought about on the back of a reduction in journey times alone (and without consideration for any other factors)? And how can that be determined without regard for service frequency? The 700 number is either plucked out of the air or they're hiding the other numbers behind it. Passenger numbers are a function of frequency, capacity and journey times rather than just one of those elements on its own. A reduction in journey times wouldn't just deliver a fixed increase in the number of passengers but rather a multiple falling within a range that depends on the service frequency. This whole exercise smells of them giving the impression they seriously considered rail as part of the project without giving it any consideration at all.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859599#Comment_118859599

Think it through.

The recommendation is an hourly direct Limerick-Cork service.

The existing hourly Dublin-Cork train provides an hourly connection between Dublin and Limerick in addition to linking Dublin & Cork. You still have to run the shuttle to provide that connection.

That means two sets of trains in each direction between each hour between Limerick and Limerick Junction unless you envisage both trains travelling within 5 minutes of each other between Limerick Junction and Cork, which isn’t what they mean.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859972#Comment_118859972

Any increase in service is perfectly able of being dealt with by a junction at Killonan similar to those at Cherryville or Portarlington.

It really isn’t a major issue at all.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859753#Comment_118859753

Things get moved.

Let’s not overthink this.

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861523#Comment_118861523

I guess I'm skeptical as that would presumably double the number of services between Limerick and Cork to 28 in each direction per day and I'd expect the Greens to have been shouting that from the rooftops, especially as there are only 5 direct Limerick-Galway trains per direction a day.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861956#Comment_118861956

If it is what they are saying, then it can only be that, as I’ve explained.

Now as to whether it happens, that’s another thing.

I’d also not consider the current service as realistic connections between Limerick & Cork due to the long waits at the Junction. It’s designed for trips between Dublin and Limerick.

However, all of this is feeding into the Strategic Rail Review which will, hopefully, finally recognise the need to deliver proper meaningful regional rail services in addition to those to/from Dublin.

I don’t see the current service levels on regional routes as being what they will be in five years time - that will have to change.

Limerick-Galway is constrained by the long 40 minute section from Limerick to Ennis and the single track between Galway and Athenry - the infrastructure needs to be improved to deliver any service increases.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118861543#Comment_118861543

Fair point. I am trying to identify any possible benefits the Nenagh Branch may receive out of these works. Would the Nenagh branch line be considered as a "detour line" for Limerick Dublin services during double track works?

Trying to be sensible2

I always thought building a new city/town at Limerick Junction would be a good idea. I know it is close to Tipperary, but if you build a town to accommodate 50k-100k. It could act as a commuter town for Cork, Dublin, Limerick and Waterford. Create a Munster Triangle of cities as a counterbalance to Dublin. You could build the motorway between Limerick and Waterford. Help to ease the housing crisis.

But mainly utilise the railway infrastructure of Ireland a lot better. Could make the cost of upgrading the Cork to Dublin line more economical.

Heartbreak Hank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118859959#Comment_118859959

From the consultation doc:

Existing Services

• An average of 200 daily rail journeys were made in 2019 between Cork and Limerick.

Appraisal

• Modelling of future demand shows that an RS1 service would generate around 700 extra journeys per day between the cities.
• RS2a and RS2b would further increase this to around 1,800 journeys per day due to the shorter journey time.
• For all three options, the new passengers are primarily transferring from existing bus services.

Public Transport - Bus

Bus is the dominant form of public transport in the project area, comprising between 8 and 9% of all commuting trips. Between Cork and Limerick, approximately 210,000 trips were made on bus services during 2019. 

210,000 trips per year/365 = 575 journeys per day (ignoring peak days). How would the additional 1,600 journeys (1,800 - 200 current) on RS2a & RS2b be drawn from from 575 bus journeys?

bk

Plus wouldn’t the intercity coach service between Cork and Limerick also benefit from the new motorway and reduction in journey time?

It would reduce to around a 60 - 70 minute journey, which looks faster then the train under all of those options. So I’d imagine that the coach would remain competitive, at least the non stop service between the cities.

BTW I’m not saying it shouldn’t happen, it absolutely should, just questioning the assumption here.

Glaceon

At the moment, the Foynes line joins the main line facing away from the station because the direct curve over Carey’s Road was removed in the 70s when the North Kerry route closed. I’m guessing there would need to be some significant reconfiguration around Limerick Check if they went with RS2a (the old direct route).

Hibernicis

@Heartbreak Hank @bk I'm just quoting the figures as provided. if either of you (or the conspiracy theorist on the previous page) want answers in relation to the published numbers, the base data or the modelling exercise that was conducted you could contact the Project Team. Per the project website they are available for consultation by appointment up to 31st May 2022.

Please contact us using one of the following methods and we will arrange an appointment with you:

info@corklimerick.ie

+353 61 973730

www.corklimerick.ie/contact

Hibernicis

This is the full brochure from the M/N20 project website, including the drawings. Posting here for reference.

MN20_Brochure_Eng.pdf

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118865507#Comment_118865507

That's only one of a multitude of issues that would have to be faced if RS2a were to be chosen. In fact demolishing the disused CIE social club and rebuilding the rail bridge over Casey's road to reinstate the Cork Direct Curve would be one of the less contentious issues. Can you imagine the ruckus that would ensue at the prospect of reinstating the level crossing on the Childers Road for 2 or more trains per hour. ! Anyway that is off the table for now as RS2a was always the least likely option.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118866329#Comment_118866329

Is it still a conspiracy theory if their published numbers simply don't add up?

Hibernicis

No idea to be honest. Why not ask the project team.

bk

I will ask the project team. But I'll also take the time to discuss it here on this public forum as we all have the right to do!

According to Heartbreaks post above it says "existing bus services"

So when they say "existing" I wonder are they modelling it purely against the existing bus services that currently run on the N20 and not on likely bus services that would run on a new and improved M20.

I suppose the planners can argue that they can only model it against what currently exist and not assume what future services their might be.

I'd argue that would be poor modelling as our experience of pretty much every other new Motorway opening has been that bus companies jump at the opportunity to make use of a new faster route on a motorway.

What we have seen on pretty much every new motorway, is actually significant increase in the numbers using buses and coaches on these routes and in general a reduction in rail use. I don't see why the M20 route would be any different.

Again, I'm not against this, I want this to happen, I was just very surprised to see them say it will take lots of passengers from bus services. That just seems extremely unrealistic.

bk

Actually reading the brochure posted above, I'm now convinced that the above modelling and assumptions were against the existing N20 bus services and not possible future M20 bus services.

It makes sense in the context where you are considering to go ahead with the rail option or the road option and if you went with the rail option there would be no M20.

However now that they have opted to go with the road option and the rail option is basically punted off to a maybe under the Strategic rail review, I don't think those figures are valid any more.

I'd assume that the Strategic rail review will remodel those figures against both the current N20 services and likely future M20 services.

BTW the above M20 report gives us an insight into likely bus services on this route. It says:

"The project has the potential to reduce bus journey times between the two cities to 1 hour 6 minutes."

"There is the potential to implement additional express services between the two cities to capitalise on the improved infrastructure and journey times. Bus Eireann are exploring the opportunity for Cork to Galway services with a target journey time of 2 hours 30 minutes, which can be facilitated by the N/M20 Project"

So realistically we would be looking at 1 hour 6 minutes for the Express buses, versus 1 hour 21 minutes for the RS1 route via Limerick Junction.

I can certainly see people opting to take the train, but the bus looks like it would be very competitive too.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862593#Comment_118862593

Most likely done at night and on weekend possessions, so there would be minimal if any diverted trains.

Deedsie

If they have to lift the entire current track from Killonan and replace it with double tracking that will surely require an extended closure? I could be wrong but isnt it about 30 km of track we are talking about from Killonan to Limerick Junction?

I am sure some of the disruption could be dealt with at night but the line will have to be closed for some of the works.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118877160#Comment_118877160

They've done this before with minimal impact (Clonsilla - Maynooth), the length of track doesn't really come in to the complexity of it.

Deedsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118877281#Comment_118877281

Fair enough. I guess we will see what impact it will have once the work plans etc appear. Track renewal project on the Nenagh line will be completed later this year. Journey times will start to reduce after that with improved speeds etc. Next phase will be to automate the final 12 gate keeper crossings.

If that work has been done before the LK-LJ double track works begin. The Nenagh line would be in a better position to act as an alternative diversion route. Which could reduce the overall time required to complete the double tracking project.

MyLove4Satan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118862760#Comment_118862760

I have always felt the same. It should have been made in to a freight distribution center decade ago for starters.