Cork to Limerick rail improvements

Geuze

For max impact with public, and to drive modal shift, Cork Kent to Limerick needs to be 60 mins.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438344#Comment_121438344

That’s not going to happen.

You’re looking probably at a fastest by possible time for a direct service of 1:20 - 1:25.

You need to be realistic in what’s achievable with the infrastructure, route and station stops as well.

Geuze

Would 60 mins be possible if all double-tracked, and all LC removed, and there were no stops?

What might be possible with doubled-track, no LC and three stops: Mallow, Charelville and LJ?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438387#Comment_121438387

First of all, you wouldn’t have zero stops - any service like that is going to call at a minimum at both Limerick Junction and Mallow as they are two important railheads for large areas, and some would undoubtedly call at Charleville to improve the service levels there.

It’s currently 57 mins from Cork to Limerick Junction (including the stop at the latter and Mallow) and 27 mins from Limerick Junction to Limerick. Add a further 3 mins for a station stop at Charleville.

The Limerick Junction to Limerick time already assumes a clear run to Killonan Junction with trains passing on the double track between there and Limerick.

You could squeeze some marginal improvements on the Cork line following the level crossing removals, but you’re not going to get more than 4-5 mins max out of that.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438376#Comment_121438376

It is possible if the M20 feasibility study into a direct railway was taken seriously and not treated as window dressing.

Geuze

Thanks.

With 200kph electrified double-track, no LC, three stops as you suggest, might 1h15 be possible?

Cookiemunster

An hour Cork to Limerick won't make much difference. Most of the traffic on the N20 is not end to end and the destination of very little of the traffic headed towards each city on the N20 is anywhere near the train station.

The commuter rail improvements around Cork will do more to remove traffic than a 1 hr Cork to Limerick train.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438830#Comment_121438830

Of course it's possible, it's just not economically viable.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439135#Comment_121439135

very little passenger rail is economically viable, so a rail link between cork and limerick not being economically viable is unlikely to be the reason it isn't happening, and to be fair it's not an argument against it anyway, seeing as it's very likely that it would have the passenger numbers to justify it.

it's not the 1980s any more, rail is going to play a bigger and bigger part in the transport needs of the country going forward and that will be a mix of investment in the existing network, some reopenings where possible, the odd new line, and new services to different destinations on a mix of existing, reopened and new.

Cookiemunster

Obviously rail is going to have an important role, but it will be things like Metrolink, Dart+ and Cork Commuter Rail.

In the rest of Ireland, thanks to the low population density, rail won't be as important.

There is very little end to end traffic on the N20, so I'm not sure where the passengers to justify it would be coming from.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439551#Comment_121439551

there will be a lot more rail projects, then those projects you mention which are already committed to and are happening.

most of the traffic on rail is not specifically end to end, they are traveling to places beyond their start and end stations.

realistically for the other projects beyond the ones you mention, the places being served have reasonable population densities hence rail being proposed.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439178#Comment_121439178

You are talking about a route that has a Citylink coach only ever two hours, that is less then 50 people every two hours.

As a Corkonian I can tell you there is very little intercity traffic between the two cities, all the traffic is commuter traffic at either end.

Spending hundreds of millions to reopen another crappy Victorian rail line really doesn’t make sense. Irish Rail rightfully wants to put their focus and priority on fixing the commuter rail networks and the core intercity network.

Focus on fixing Limerick to Limerick junction and Cork commuter lines, double tracking, track improvement, signaling, electrification, etc. will help create a really good rail network.

The danger of trying to reopen the direct route, is that it would have such a poor CBA that it could only afford to be another cheap rubbish project like the WRC and it would also then weaken the CBA for the Limerick to Junction improvements.

Honestly it is completely mad IMO that some people call for old tracks to be reopened when there are parts of the core intercity network still single tracked and non of it electrified!

Much better to try and focus on the existing network and get it up to a really great standard. Get lots of people using the rail network and loving it and then it would be easier to suggest other lines in future if the demand is really there.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439591#Comment_121439591

We shouldn't forget the improvements made to regional bus services with LocalLink which has seen a 25% increase since 2019. Clearly there is huge untapped rural demand for public transport. Rail lines which were previously unviable will now be viable and they don't need to pass through dense areas - they just need to well connected with all the regional bus services.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439651#Comment_121439651

the direct route was i believe quite a reasonably decent rout, a lot quicker then the limerick junction route apparently.

it definitely would be if rebuilt properly which it would be.

as i have said before a coach is not proof of anything in relation to rail as both are different methods of transport that attract mostly different markets all be it there will be overlap.

as i said it's not the 1980s anymore, we can very well afford to do everything the rail network needs done seeing as in the great scheme of infrastructure rail investment is reasonably cheap.

we were able to do nearly all of our motor ways within a reasonably quick time frame, we can definitely invest in the existing network and reopen/rebuild or even new build what needs to be done.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439655#Comment_121439655

100% correct and people are slowly waking up to this reality.

it will take time but we will get there, no doubt about it.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439651#Comment_121439651

It also has a Bus Éireann Expressway service (route 51) every hour end to end, which I think you’ve forgotten about, despite frequently using double deck coaches of late? ;-)

Having made that correction, I would say that all the indications are that the investment will be in the existing rail network - hopefully building up a proper service from Galway and Limerick to Cork and Waterford, with infrastructure that permits more capacity and more ambitious schedules (more double track and loops), but let’s keep this within the bounds of reality - building new railway lines isn’t remotely on the horizon in this case.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439135#Comment_121439135

Is the M20 CBA plagued by the same carbon oversight that led to the Galway ring road being canned/delayed?

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439551#Comment_121439551

Are you telling me that a city pair with 13 train connections a day and 22 bus connections a day does not need a direct train service?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121439914#Comment_121439914

Oh, I’m well aware of the 51, but didn’t mention it as it is a pretty slow stopping service. For folks travelling intercity between Cork and Limerick, they definitely take the Citylink as it is at least 30 minutes faster.

And once the M20 opens, I’m sure Citylink will use it and drop the journey time down to 1 hour or close. 51 will get some benefit too, but if it remains stopping, then it will still be quiet a bit slower.

That is why I think the Citylink is a better comparison of the numbers travelling between Cork and Limerick cities by public transport and of course perhaps more to the point, by existing rail services via Limerick junction.

The m20 will also greatly enhance bus and coach based public transport. Some folks seem to forget that in these conversations.

Having said all that, I’m really excited about the plans and works Irish Rail are doing in the region. The Cork Commuter and Limerick to junction double tracking and other improvements are very exciting. With all these works, along with the M20 and nice intercity coaches on it we can end up with a really high quality and heavily used public transport network in the region to balance out Dublin.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440176#Comment_121440176

Seeing as the Galway Ring Road was planned before the new carbon rules came in and the M20 is still in planning and is taking these rules into account, then no, the M20 isn't plagued with the same issues.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440219#Comment_121440219

Who said anything about there not being a direct service? A direct service running along a double tracked Limerick to Limerick Junction line and then onto Cork is the plan.

alias no.9

The challenge with the Charleville to Patrickswell route will be the inevitable pressure for it to be a commuter service stopping at Croom, Patrickswell, Raheen and Dooradoyle with the need to come to a complete stop and reverse back into Colbert. There may be merit in a service like this but it wouldn't marry well with an intercity service on the same, inevitably single track, line meaning the benefits of the more direct route would be limited.

Another **** intercity service won't change much. Doubling down on the current route and spending the rest on connectivity to Kent and Colbert from their respective hinterlands, including perhaps a commuter service on the Foynes line would probably be a better overall service.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438344#Comment_121438344

It's a total distance of about 130kms i suppose?? So right now it'd have to be more than an hour given at least a stop at the junction. But there's probably not much call for such a limited stop service. The only express train in the country is 1 per weekday between Dublin and Cork.

In the future, assuming the rail strategy happens, I'm not sure what the speed restrictions will be like when Limerick to Limerick jnct will be but if we assume that the Cork to Limerick Jnct section will be brought up to 200km/hr then you're talking about 25 mins Cork to Lmk Junct assuming no stops and maybe another 20 mins if there's significant improvement to Limerick to Junction line so sub 1 hour would be possible then

Pete_Cavan

I think some are seriously overestimating the benefits from Limerick to LJ. It doesn't carry a huge number of trains with limited potential for increases (no commuter services), it's relatively short and there is a section of double track at the Colbert end.

I suspect that there would be more benefit from investing in improvements at Limerick Junction itself rather than double tracking Colbert to LJ. Investments to improve running speed would likely do as much as double-tracking for lower cost.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440623#Comment_121440623

I think when most of us are talking about here, we aren’t just talking about double tracking, but all the improvements that can be made to the lines in this area. So as you say LJ improvements, speed upgrades, signalling, eventual electrification and potentially faster trains, etc.

By focusing all the trains from Limerick through LJ, it makes it much easier to justify all these upgrades then if you were to dilute it by instead investing a lot in reopening the Patrickswell line and probably ending up with a pretty low quality line there.

Hell I’m not even saying we shouldn’t reopen it some day, it could make for a useful commuter line someday, just that it doesn’t make sense to invest in that first, when we should first be fixing all the core intercity and commuter lines first.

Having said all that, I do think it is a bit mad that sections of the core intercity network are still single tracked. As these lines are improved, as they gain more commuter services and greater intercity frequency that will be a restriction to service levels that will need to be dealt with.

cgcsb

One thing is for sure there needs to be a doubling of the frequency between Cork and Dublin in the more immediate future, every train ive been on this year seems to be completely wedged at all different times even mid day and mid week

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441790#Comment_121441790

I assume rolling stock is the limitation here?

Will the new ICR carriages allow for extra frequency on this route or will we be waiting for the Mark 4 replacements, which still seem far off.

BTW I assume the eventual Mark 4 replacement will be the same or similar to the Enterprise replacement. I’d guess rail cars that are eventually upgrade able to electric running once available.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442232#Comment_121442232

No the extra intermediate cars won’t facilitate additional trains between Dublin and Cork.

You would need an entirely new fleet to deliver the frequency mentioned above, which is years away yet.

At the moment my understanding is that the focus is on delivering frequency improvements on other routes which have lower frequencies, such as Belfast.

breezy1985

I don't see the obsession with direct Cork to Limerick.

If you can just make the LJ connection on the Limerick to Cork train as efficient as on Limerick to Dublin it would be a great service. The problem is the the trains with the 20m wait or the the last train each way which has over an hour wait.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442293#Comment_121442293

Makes sense and the Mark 4's are still relatively young.

I wonder if they could think about ordering some extra trainsets when they do the Enterprise order, not to replace the Mark 4, but to add extra frequency to the Cork line, so you'd have both the Mark 4 and the new trains running on the Cork line until the Mark 4's were also eventually replaced.

I'm aware no plans for that at the moment, but perhaps something worth thinking about.