Cork to Limerick rail improvements

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566109#Comment_121566109

ultimately they are going to have to as there is going to have to be an exceptence that to grow rail services there will have to be services put on at certain times thought to be low travel points in the past, which at the start will have low usership before starting to grow.

the 9 to 5 mindset on short to medium journeys like this just does not work anymore.

or at least they are going to have to do some sort of research which is open to the public to find out the likely demand.

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567195#Comment_121567195

To be fair, Cork-Limerick currently has a better service that between many other cities, and interchanging at LJ usually involves walking straight from one train onto another.

Doesn’t this double tracking need to happen before the Foynes line opens, or is there enough capacity to handle the massive flows of freight promised from Foynes. Think IÉ have said it’d take 2 years to award a contract and then 18 months to construct.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567632#Comment_121567632

The entire transport agenda for Limerick's future since 2021 seems to be this fabled commuter rail system, that rather than being based on any sound transport planning, appears to be mainly centred around what one local TD fantasises about in the shower. It seems to be a white elephant that has become official Government policy until the next election.

You have local people who know the lay of the land, such as the TUS President, who say that more pragmatic proposals, such as the Northern Distributor Road (which is also a public transport and active travel corridor for the Greenies reading this), which isn't just an outlet for evil motorists to destroy the environment, but rather a journey facilitator for a side of the city that has particularly poor accessibility, mainly due to the river and other geographical reasons.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568383#Comment_121568383

"Many other cities" if you mean Ireland we don't really have many other cities. Cork to Waterford is the only missing link really as Cork to Limerick would expect to have better links than Limerick to Galway or Waterford and you can't really link Cork to Galway.

Doesn't mean it's a good or bad service though.

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568383#Comment_121568383

Most changes at Limerick Junction travelling Limerick to Cork have involved walking over the bridge between platforms and waiting in the coldest place in Ireland for 20 minutes. Often there is no indication which platform to transfer to and once we (group of 20 with backpacks) had to retreat back over the bridge again after being told the wrong platform by the Irish rail staff (to be fair I think there was a late change of platforms due to a delayed service). I used to arrange my meetings in Dublin so I could get the direct Dublin to Limerick train, so any direct (no change) service between Cork and Limerick would become the preferred service for me if offered.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569330#Comment_121569330

Your right about the Cork Limerick connection but the Limerick/LJ to Dublin is actually the better train than the Limerick direct now given that the "direct" has way more stops.

The moving of more and more stations to the Dublin commuter services is great for that service.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569330#Comment_121569330

Yes when I was last doing the trip regularly I avodided the Limerick train, because of a few bad experiences like that. The Bus was by far easier for me.

Nowadays I'd like to try and work during the journey if possible, so train would be preferable. Direct trains would be an advantage, but shorter transfer delays would be a non-negotiable requirement. There's no way I could justify standing on a platform for 50 minutes.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567780#Comment_121567780

This is exactly my thinking. I'm not an expert, obviously.

But I can fly at 0600 to get into London, Amsterdam etc for work before 0900 or 1000. But I can't do anything but drive, to travel between Galway and Cork.

ohographite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568467#Comment_121568467

Even if the Northern Distributor Road is more essential for Limerick than Moyross Station, that doesn't make it wrong to build both. Obviously we can't and shouldn't build everything, but one train station and a road aren't everything.

Limerick should definitely have more than just one station.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566403#Comment_121566403

Would it be possible to keep a train at LJ overnight to travel into Limerick after the first Cork - Dublin train has arrived, then it could run a service out of Colbert? It would have to do a Lim - LJ run at night, connecting with the last Dublin-Cork/Cork-Dublin trains of the day, to be in position for the next morning.

I know overnighting at LJ would bring its own difficulties and you'd have drivers starting/finishing at LJ but it could allow an early morning service into Limerick within existing resources.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567015#Comment_121567015

I'm working it out by going to the Irish Rail website and setting my start point as Limerick and my endpoint as Cork

There's roughly 100km between the cities so at 1h50m it's an average speed of 55km/h, even at 1h25m you are looking at an average speed of 70km/h. Both pitiful speeds if you ask me

goingnowhere

Its 128km by rail Limerick to Cork

Ave time is 1:34 to 1:44

If a direct service was provided it would cut 15-20 minutes out of the time, once there is double track Limerick Limerick Junction a direct train every two hours would make a lot of sense Cork - Limerick.

Limerick Limerick Junction upgrade includes a move from 80mph to 100mph and the further improvements on Dublin Cork could take another 5 minutes out of that

That gives you 80kph ave as crow flies or 102kph per the route taken

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574072#Comment_121574072

The current setup involves a wait at Limerick Junction for connecting trains due to the different arrival times of trains from Cork and Dublin (usually about 15 mins). So 1:50 is not realistic for a direct train.

A direct train with three stops would be about 1:25 to 1:30.

Looking at the average speed, you also have to factor that it would be likely these trains would make three stops en route (Mallow, Charleville and Limerick Junction) - each stop adds three minutes to the overall journey time, which translates to an extra 9 minutes added to the schedule. A train isn’t going to be non-stop like you might be in a car. You have to be realistic in your expectations.

But I do suspect that you could shave at least 5 mins or maybe 10 mins off those journey times with improved infrastructure (elimination of level crossings and permanent speed restrictions).

Incidentally, the distance by rail from Cork to Limerick via Limerick Junction is 130km not 100km.

Red Silurian

Just looking at the Irish Rail website the 15:55 train gets to Cork 1h37m later at 17:32 with a 3 minute change in LJ and stops in Charleville and Mallow. Would the track upgrade in County Limerick really cut 7-12 minutes off this time?

Even still by comparison to driving between the 2 cities (which is the shorter distance of 100km) there is very little savings in time especially when you add the distance between the stations and city centres

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121573483#Comment_121573483

The crew and train are only one side of the problem.

The infrastructure is the other.

Looking at it, it just won’t work with the current infrastructure.

The 05:40 Cork-Dublin arrives at Limerick Junction at 06:41. That means the Limerick bound shuttle couldn’t leave until 06:43 which means it cannot get to Dromkeen loop in time to cross the 06:40 Limerick-Dublin train safely.

You also then would not have sufficient time to get from Dromkeen to Killonan Junction (where the double track starts) to cross with the 06:55 Limerick-Limerick Junction train safely - it’s the newly added connection into the 06:00 Heuston-Cork - I suspect demand would be higher for Limerick-Cork than vice versa at this time which this train facilitates.

While for much of the day the current infrastructure between Limerick Junction is just about ok - passing times at Killonan are tight enough, but at peak times it would be challenging to operate more services without extending the double track.

Incidentally the evening set up offers a connection into the last Cork-Dublin train and out of the last Dublin-Cork train from and to Limerick.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574438#Comment_121574438

It sounds like the upgrades to the LJ-Colbert section will facilitate better connections in that case.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574551#Comment_121574551

Absolutely - especially at peak times.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574403#Comment_121574403

Going towards Cork there is recovery time (standard industry practice to allow for delays) added into the journey time of Dublin-Cork times in the Mallow-Cork section (which is why I was looking at trains from Cork and coming up with a faster time - a Limerick-Cork direct train would have a need for less recovery time than a Dublin-Cork one due to the shorter distance travelled).

The journey time savings would be from a combination of:

1) Increased line speed between Limerick and Limerick Junction and potentially eliminating permanent speed restrictions

2) Elimination of permanent speed restrictions on the Dublin-Cork line through the removal or upgrading of seven manned level crossings between Limerick Junction and Mallow.

These combined could improve journey times, but I can only speculate as to the scale of the improvement. It would be of the magnitude of about 6-7 mins between the two I would imagine.

Vanquished

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568467#Comment_121568467

Vincent Cunnane may be a 'renowned researcher in the field of physical electrochemistry' but he's far from an expert in transport infrastructure or transport planning. He's an Irish man of a certain vintage from rural Donegal so naturally he'd have an affinity with the motor car and an enthusiasm for roads. He was extremely lukewarm about rail or indeed any infrastructure other than the fabled LNDR in a recent interview.

This concept of a dual carriageway ploughing through flood prone farmers fields in rural south east Clare being championed as a 'knowledge corridor' between TUS and UL in the digital age is utterly laughable! One would have to ask what does Cunnane and TUS stand to gain from the extension of the LNDR beyond Knockalisheen road? Their additional land holdings in Coonagh will all be serviced by the road running from the R445 to Knockalisheen road due to open in 2025.

Perhaps they have irons in the fire of the lunatic UL 'new town' plan on remote cow fields in south east Clare which are almost entirely unserviced by infrastructure of any description. Building more car centric transport projects which will inevitably lead to yet further isolated and low density car dependent development is entirely contrary to the national planning framework. It would also potentially be hugely damaging to Limerick city (the city centre in particular). The framework mandates compact growth and the provision of at least 50% of new development within the footprint of existing urban areas. It's little wonder Limerick Council has major concerns about the UL plan. Clare County Council are naturally enthusiastic supporters of the project given that they've been milking the opportunities presented by lands in proximity to Limerick city for decades.

Then there's the matter of the €770 million southern ring road linking all national routes around the city and the underperforming Limerick tunnel which operates at less than half its capacity. I doubt its operators will lie down an let an extended LNDR project further erode their revenue levels. The Moyross train station is a bit of an anomaly for sure but given the fact that it's long been designated as a regeneration area means that its selection is hardly a surprise. Stations at the likes of Raheen, Dooradoyle, Ballysimon and the Parkway would see far greater passenger numbers and need to be delivered also.

gjim

I don't see that any of the existing rail alignments would provide any utility for Limerick commuters. There is little or no demand for the trips between various points in the city that they'd facilitate. And without massive capital investments - track doubling, new stations, new rolling stock, etc., the service frequencies and journey times would be terrible.

The main demand for trips are via the main routes into the centre - which for a fraction of the cost, could be served by 2 or 3 high frequency "BRT-lite" type through-running bus routes like Corbally to Dooradoyle via O'Connell Street, Coonagh Roundabout to Ballysimon Rd, Castletroy/UL to the Dock rd etc. 5 or 10 minute frequencies with Luas style inline stops and tag on/off and multi-door single or artic single-deckers along these routes would provide 10 times the utility for a fraction of the cost - capital and operating. These routes connect the suburban population centres, schools, business parks, hospitals with the central core of the city. And could link with other bus services serving areas between. The existing rail alignments wander through flood plains on the outer periphery.

AngryLips

Limerick needs a Limerick crossrail

namloc1980

I travel for work Cork to Limerick a couple times a month and would love to see a direct service with no messing around with connections at the Junction. Most times the connecting train is there within 10-15 mins but even that is a bit of a pain. But the odd time have been left stranded due to delays, mostly on the return leg, when the Heuston to Cork train is delayed.

Unfortunately, I'd say I'll be retired before there's any proper improvements like a direct link!

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121577958#Comment_121577958

I'm sure your comment is tongue in cheek but it is the way to make commuter rail viable in Limerick. A tunnel from Colbert out to Moyross with two intermediate stations would allow for commuter rail between Ennis and Nenagh. The tunnel itself would obviously be extremely expensive, and major upgrades would be required to the existing rail lines either side. If it ever happened, I doubt any of us would be around to see it.

loco_scolo

Additional stations in Limerick are not just to serve current populations, which are low density along the current lines, but will facilitate higher density developments in future.

Housing crisis and all that. Plan ahead, no?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578381#Comment_121578381

I’d ask, is there actually a plan to do that, like a strategic development plan? A plan for high density apartments near stations etc.?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121574403#Comment_121574403

That is true for pretty much every intercity route in Ireland and all rural routes.

You’d be faster driving than the train, specially when you consider door to door time.

This is as much true of the premium Cork to Dublin and Dublin to Belfast routes as it is for the much less traveled routes like Cork - Limerick.

It is really only commuter rail and Dart where rail becomes competitive with driving, mostly due to traffic congestion in the cities.

Mostly people take intercity rail in Ireland because they don’t have a car, can’t drive, free travel pass or want to work/study/relax while travelling. Speed and journey times really aren’t a feature of Irish railways.

Future upgrades to some of the routes to 200km/h running might help with this.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578381#Comment_121578381

It's not "planning ahead" to spend a fortune on a service that provides almost zero utility to anybody living and justify it by saying a complete reconfiguration of the current city via future developments will retrospectively justify it.

Particularly given the lack of decent PT options for the current population. And how something like BRT, maybe eventually upgraded to tram suits the geography and layout of Limerick perfectly.

Thinking that heavy rail is the solution to every public transport problem makes no more sense than the 1940s/50s thinking that the "omni-bus" could solve every problem. It's certainly not the case in Limerick given the crappyness of the alignments - single track, level crossings and skirting the outskirts for the most part passing through flood plains and bogs.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121580282#Comment_121580282

I think you'll find that transport lead development is exactly what I said, planning ahead. You can't say it's the opposite?.... However, as the previous poster pointed out, there isn't actually any plans for that, but it's beside the point.

Also, I'm certainly not suggesting a rail network for Limerick is the only solution to it's 'public transport problem', nor did I suggest that other options, such as a better bus network, should be neglected in favour of new rail stations that serve no one.

end of the road

ultimately what the poster is suggesting is planning ahead though.

the city is going to grow and around some existing and future stations is going to be part of that and that means spending on heavy rail for those areas or any others that need it, with light rail for the rest and then bus for the very low lying stuff.

retrospective justification as long as there is a clear future plan is absolutely justification for spending the money, especially that when we really look at the costs of rail, it's not going to be a fortune in reality.

at least not when we have spent huge money on some low hanging road schemes in our time.

forget about BRT, if that is the route you are going down then build trams instead, at least it avoids the cost of upgrading to trams later on and the transport infrastructure is there for the future.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121580282#Comment_121580282

Limerick is getting an absolutely massive increase is PT through Bus Connects so nobody is thinking "rail is the solution to every public transport problem".

I think the Moyross station is a joke despite being a resident but stations on the busy LJ line has always been a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121580975#Comment_121580975

I don't get you. You stated that additional stations could be justified as they will "facilitate higher density developments in future.", no? How is it besides the point that there are no plans for such developments or that currently there is no demand or use for such stations? The decision to build stations should be based on whether they provide utility (benefit) greater than cost. Reinstating services along the existing lines around Limerick would deliver almost no utility.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121581254#Comment_121581254

The Limerick to LJ is probably the only vaguely feasible site for a new commuter station having twin tracks, but it's certainly not a "no-brainer" - where would you propose such a station? 4 km out of Colbert and the line is in agricultural land barely intersecting any roads and anything closer than Childer's road, for 99% of cases, walking would be quicker. This alignment - like all the alignments are very poorly sited to serve any sort of commuter demand.