You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the right.

ancapailldorcha · 29-11-2023 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434768#Comment_121434768

Prove it.

29-11-2023 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434768#Comment_121434768

"I want immigrants because I'm racist"

Thats a new one

ancapailldorcha · 29-11-2023 9:00pm

I never thought I'd see the insipid brain drain trope but here we are...

almostover · 29-11-2023 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121434347#Comment_121434347

OK so hear me out on this. Not arguing that we have a large pension burden coming at us. Let's say we import a generation of immigrants now to mitigate that problem in the short term. What do we do then in a generations time when those people themselves are at retirement age? Import more cheap, young labour to service the pension needs of the previous generation? We're not going to be able to keep up with demand.

Our social services are in a very similar state to goods and services in our economy. Victims of runaway inflation where supply simply cannot keep pace with ever increasing demand. Our solution with immigration is akin to pouring more money into the economy (increasing supply) but that has the unintended effect of also increasing demand. Our health care crisis, housing crisis, homelessness numbers, policing crisis etc will continue to get worse if we continue to increase demand. Supply has natural constraints, we are removing the constraints from demand. It's folly of the highest order.

We need a government to take unpopular decisions, in the same way the ECB has, and take action to reduce demand so that supply has an opportunity to catch up.

29-11-2023 10:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435144#Comment_121435144

The pension shortfall is being addressed in a multi-pronged approach, i.e. no one solution will address it. Well....one would have, getting the retirement age up to 68/69, but the govt blinked and it won't be going beyond 66.

So, the current solutions are

A sovereign wealth fund which will be invested in stock markets, the dividends of which will pay on a quarterly basis and will fund some of the increased pension needs for many years to come. There will still be a shortfall
Increase PRSI contributions from workers and employers. This started with the last budget with a 0.1% increase. Further increases are planned out to 2028 which will take the total increase to 0.85%. This is not enough, and by rights we need to be increasing it to 3-4% right now. There will still be a shortfall
Diverting funding from other govt spending. There will still be a shortfall

As you can see, we're in trouble, no matter what we do. This had started to be mitigated against by the National Pension Reserve Fund back in the early 2000's but the downturn put paid to that as the IMF told the govt they couldn't borrow to beat the band while they had billions sitting in that fund, so it was drained.

This is a vastly, VASTLY more complex problem than simply saying "stop immigrants and it'll be grand". It won't, it really won't.

Also, please don't forget, there are a shedload of immigrants you can't legally block anyway

returning Irish nationals
UK citizens
EU citizens

So you can say lets stop refugees, but we also have obligations there at a EU levels.

Then you can say lets stop asylum seekers, ok, but that gives you what, 13k in 2022, thats a drop in the bucket

Whats left? Illegal immigration? We already don't allow that because its illegal. But its not as big a problem as many think it is, just look at the amnesty. Was there even 10k applications from the whole state?

Oh btw, don't forget, we also have a border we can't close up north, so we're always going to have a gapping hole in any security solution.

Our health care crisis, housing crisis, homelessness numbers, policing crisis

Since the foundation of the state and likely until its demise, there always has been and always will be, a health care crisis, housing crisis, homelessness numbers, policing crisis.

Just to note, without immigrants, our health crisis would be a lot, LOT, LOT worse

almostover · 29-11-2023 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435252#Comment_121435252

Good post, it's rare to get a good quality retort on here from someone of an opposing point of view. From reading your reply it seems we have a lot of ideas in common on this issue. Mainly that mismanagement by several governments has lead to us into a situation whereby our social services are in a state of perpetual crisis!

I'm just not on board with the idea that placing sensible limitations on the number of immigrants coming into the country should be off the table when it comes to the discussion of solutions to tackling these crises. I'm not anti immigration, not at all. I believe that the approach to immigration that worked well for the majority of the last 25 years may not work that well for the next 25. Mainly because successive governments haven't given due diligence to planning to facilitate the subsequent growth in population.

I would be of the opinion that a temporary limitation on immigration into Ireland could be part of a larger solution to mitigating some of the crises in our public services. Emphasis on the word temporary.

We've had temporary eviction restrictions, which I broadly agreed with. Temporary measures with respect to the COVID pandemic, which again I broadly supported. I just can't see why we're not willing to countenance similar temporary restrictions on immigration? It seems prudent to me to do so in response to the housing and homelessness crises in particular.

Fully agree with the sentiment that this is a complex crisis, and will take a multi pronged approach to mitigate. Why can't immigration be one of the many prongs?

I just fundamentally disagree that immigration into any country, anywhere in the world can be treated as unlimited without there not be consequences attached. I'm calling for limits, not a ban. And those limits could be temporary.

suvigirl · 29-11-2023 11:54pm

There are approx 1.5 million Irish born people living outside of Ireland.

CSO estimates approx 703,700 non Irish nationals living in Ireland.

lmimmfn · 29-11-2023 11:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435252#Comment_121435252

You forgot to mention importing 10s of thousands of dole heads and completely social dependent individuals/families that bleed tax payers money.

Which "of course" will be huge contributors to the tax coffers to help pay pensions.

30-11-2023 12:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435410#Comment_121435410

From reading your reply it seems we have a lot of ideas in common on this issue. Mainly that mismanagement by several governments has lead to us into a situation whereby our social services are in a state of perpetual crisis!

Well yes but also no.

What I mean is "crisis" can have very different meanings to different people.

A housing "crisis" can be

A shortage of housing
Ghost estates
Housing bubble
Insufficient builders
Pyrite
The Ballymun towers
Etc etc

This is what I mean when I say you will always have "crisis".

How you deal with them is what matters.

Going after some of the most vulnerable in society is literally page 1 of the fascists handbook.

Next up, it's those with a different skin tone, then the disabled, then the minority religions and so on.

As I said in an earlier post you can look at Brexit and the crap going on in the UK. They are working their way down through the list and just recently started going after the disabled

As for the rest, as I pointed out, the term "immigration" covers a lot, so maybe narrow it down so I know what you are talking about when you say you want to limit it.

As I mentioned it covers

Returning Irish nationals
UK nationals
EU nationals
Refugees
Asylum seekers
Illegals

almostover · 30-11-2023 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121435675#Comment_121435675

To clarify, when I refer to the housing crisis I'm referring to a shortage of affordable housing options for people to purchase and rent. That hasn't always been a crisis in this country. If you go back 10 years there was plenty of affordable housing options, albeit as a result of the property market crash and emigration from the country due to recession.

Seconds, I'm not a fascist and don't follow any fascist playbooks. Let's keep the name calling and labelling out of the debate please. I'm not going after the vulnerable in society. The most vulnerable in society are those who suffer most in these crises that have been created by poor governance.

What I'm suggesting is that some of our crises could be mitigated by placing sensible temporary limits on immigration. And to answer your question those limits should be placed on refugees and asylum seekers in my opinion. Let me explain why.

Firstly, we can't limit the return of Irish citizens. They have the right to return and have citizenship. We also can't limit UK nationals as we have a common travel area agreement with the UK and a land border with a part of the UK. That part of the UK contains many people who are Irish.

One measure that could be taken is to sensibly limit any EU immigrant who travel here as welfare tourists. It's likely a very small cohort of people but closing the loopholes that exist would limit the ammo for the far right. The fact that the killer of Aisling Murphy was a welfare tourist from an EU state has contributed to the inflammation of anti immigrant rhetoric and government should take reasonable steps to limit such welfare tourism within the EU.

Secondly, we simply cannot offer infinite support for refugees and asylum seekers. Our support for these unfortunate people cannot be limitless in reality. In my opinion we should have quotas on the numbers of refugees and asylum seekers that we can realistically accept and provide services for in this country. We have finite resources and social services and therefore should have finite limits on how many people we can provide refuge and asylum for. That's my suggestion and I don't believe it to be unreasonable or fascist in any way. It's a pragmatic suggestion in my opinion.

Also we need to begin enforcing deportation orders. If a person has been issued a deportation order it has been done so for good reason and should be followed up on. I believe the statistic for enforcement is less than 10%. That's not good enough and again is fuel for extreme far right views.

Finally, Illegals are simply that. Illegal immigrants. Not currently a major problem in my opinion.

Loafing Oaf · 30-11-2023 3:08pm

Gript puts its foot in it again

https://www.irishtimes.com/media/2023/11/30/gript-media-article-that-gave-incorrect-details-of-parnell-square-stabbing-suspect-is-removed/#:~:text=The%20article%20was%20removed%20after,in%20the%20Parnell%20Square%20attack.

VinLieger · 30-11-2023 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437741#Comment_121437741

McGuirk is out on twitter today making apologies if the site is slow due to so many new people accessing and creating accounts on it in the last few days...... they are desperate to pretend they are relevant

Loafing Oaf · 30-11-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437812#Comment_121437812

And of course re the above flub hes claiming

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/special-security-put-in-place-for-algerian-man-wrongly-identified-as-suspect-for-parnell-square-stabbings/a968017709.html

McGuirk said this now “feels like a bit of a rat-f**king”, a term used to describe dirty tricks or deliberate sabotage.

“Gript Media’s original reporting was sourced from a member of An Garda Síochána.

“We are investigating the circumstances of this error, including giving due consideration to the question of whether this media outlet was deliberately deceived by a senior official. If we determine that to have been the case, then our obligation to protect the anonymity of those sources will be considered forfeit.”

VinLieger · 30-11-2023 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437868#Comment_121437868

So the gloves are off as far as doxxing goes with Gript? Good to know.

For Forks Sake · 30-11-2023 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437741#Comment_121437741

Not his first round on the misinformation rodeo either

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/03/14/its-amateur-hour-at-save-the-8-towers/

ancapailldorcha · 30-11-2023 3:34pm

I'd honestly forgotten that grift.ie exists.

Loafing Oaf · 30-11-2023 3:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437932#Comment_121437932

grift.ie exists.

Grayson · 30-11-2023 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121436803#Comment_121436803

hadn't the killer of Aisling Murphy been working in Ireland before he went onto medical leave?

30-11-2023 5:22pm

Gript are finished.

Not even their American backers will get them through the upcoming legal cases.

almostover · 30-11-2023 5:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438171#Comment_121438171

He has been on social welfare for over ten years according to this article: https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ashling-murphy-trial-josef-puska-sentenced-to-life-as-her-partner-says-i-will-never-marry-my-soulmate-1552948.html

He was claiming disability allowance with over ten years, a fact which was condemned by the boyfriend of Aisling Murphy

VinLieger · 30-11-2023 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438460#Comment_121438460

The Americans pulled out over a year ago which is why they pushed out a subscription/donation thing. Thats also why they are making such noise right now so as to make themselves look relevant so as to try and get them back on board, my bet is they didnt have many months left until this chaos came along.

erlichbachman · 30-11-2023 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121438460#Comment_121438460

I hope not, from someone like myself who stands firmly in the middle it’s healthy to see both sides of an argument, what’s concerning is how one sided the voices are lately, especially on boards.ie