30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

Moves continue to roll this out as a default for all urban areas

There is a strong case for having a default 30km/h speed limit in urban areas — it would mean that councils would have to justify having higher limits on some roads rather than justifying low limits as in the current case — the Oireachtas Committee on Transport was told last week.

https://irishcycle.com/2022/03/09/oireachtas-committee-hears-benefit-of-lower-speeds-and-concerns-on-slow-action/

The Love30 campaign has been active in developing a case for this for many years.

https://www.love30.ie/

While this limit may not get rolled out today or tomorrow, support is growing for it at a significant rate.

It looks like its only a matter of time before it becomes the norm

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

And rightfully so, as a pedestrian you're far more likely to survive being hit at 30kph vs 50kph. It'll save lives so a no brainer.

Burt Renaults

I'd expect a lot of objections from people who somehow have full driving licences, despite inexplicably thinking that it's really difficult to maintain a speed of 30km/h.

Ubbquittious

They should feck off with their speed limits and stop pursuing the anti-car agenda

Effects

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758961#Comment_118758961

Yeah. Who needs speed limits anyway? Struggling motorists have had enough!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758961#Comment_118758961

Who is "they"?

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758961#Comment_118758961

It's impossible to know whether this is a parody of car bores, or an actual stupid opinion.

Stephen_Maturin

I predict a calm and reasoned debate on this topic as ever.

30kph as a default is stupid, it’s too low. I’ve also seen little to no public support for at all apart from the cycling lobby.

The “safety” argument always gets trotted out in these cases because its proponents think it gives them a morally unassailable position, but this is not the case - we already have some of the safest roads in Europe, this measure would be overkill. The reality is that this is nothing to do with safety and more to do with making cars more unattractive vehicles.

Also would the limit apply to bicycles as a matter of interest?

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758411#Comment_118758411

There have only been 2 reported deaths, ever, of pedestrians involved in collisions at 10kph so really 30 is too high and they should reduce it to 10kph and stop with the half measures.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118759029#Comment_118759029

Also would the limit apply to bicycles as a matter of interest?

speed limits don't apply to bicycles, only to motorised vehicles.

patrickbrophy18

With the prevailing mentality of "you're far more likely to survive being hit at 30 vs 50 KMPH" or variations of it, you'd swear many pedestrians have resigned themselves to the fact they will be run over.

Look both ways each and every time before crossing the road and you won't be hit at all. OR, if you are visually impaired, listen out for on coming traffic or cross at a designated crosswalk. While I am constantly looking out for rogue or clueless road crossers, many other motorists mightn't be as observant.

Seriously, anyone who crosses the road without even looking is on their way to recieve the Darwin Award.

magicbastarder

anyway, i'll make my usual contribution - right now, at nearly 9pm on a wednesday night, google maps is giving an estimate for driving from the main entrance of DCU to the main entrance of UCD - 11.9km, 11km of which is on roads of 50km/h (or above, for a brief stretch on the N11), of 25 minutes.

that's an average speed of 28.5km/h, several hours after rush hour has finished. it's not speed limits which slows urban traffic down, it's urban traffic and lights which do.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118759029#Comment_118759029

There's a huge difference between roads having a low number of deaths and roads being 'safe'.

A big factor in Ireland's relatively low number of road deaths is because a large portion of the population views roads as being unsafe for anyone outside a car so you have fewer people walking and cycling than in many other countries. Between that, and a public transport system that varies between mediocre and non-existent, we have a reliance on cars that means even short journeys are driven here to a much greater extent than the EU average.

Measuring death rates only, to the exclusion of all other relevant safety measurements, has the perverse outcome of rewarding a culture where roads are perceived as being hostile by a large portion of the population such that they choose to only use them when encased in a protective metal box.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118759465#Comment_118759465

Good advice, I'm sure, but not much use to those injured and killed while still on the footpath, or walking on rural roads with no footpaths.

reniwren

I can only assume that this would sway more people toward scooter/bike use of the speed limit is close to their limits anyway

Jeremy Sproket

This news is absolutely wonderful news !

I hope this will apply everywhere in all the suburbs. I hope to see it rolled out soon in the suburb of Fingal I live in. Hopefully this will be enforced by omnipresent static average speed cameras.

Jeremy Sproket

For those who are complaining, you do realise that most modern cars have cruise control or a speed limit warning?

Mine can be activated at speeds ≥30 km/h. So no issue.

MrMusician18

Speed limits don't work in urban environments. You should design the street for the appropriate speed. Slap a 30km/h limit on a wide two lane highway and no one will stick to it without constant enforcement.

Aren't all new cars coming with GPS speed limiters by law soon though?

magicbastarder

that's assuming the chips to govern the speed can be produced, i guess.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118759465#Comment_118759465

utterly classic shifting of responsibility from those creating the danger, onto those experiencing the danger.

They never tend to enforce speed limits in these 30 zones. I think they know themselves that it's nonsense.

patrickbrophy18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118759854#Comment_118759854

I am well aware of this as I found myself at the mercy of speedy traffic on the country roads of Dublin 24 when I did a couple of brisk evening walks beyond the confines of Citywest after work and it was terrifying. No footpaths or soft shoulders and blind corners galore. I never did these walks again.

On the other hand, I do feel perfectly safe on the urban sidewalks of Dublin City where I mostly cross at designated spots or where and when it is safe to do so. Conversely, many of my fellow pedestrians have their heads buried in their phones at crucial points, are so drunk or drugged out of it and step out into the path of moving traffic or just step out because they feel entitled to.

Now, drivers who wind up crashing into footpaths at speed nevermind injuring/killing pedestrians in the process have no business behind the wheel period.

km991148

Do we really have crosswalks, curbs and sidewalks in Ireland now?

I find that more irritating than 30kmph limits.

patrickbrophy18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118760047#Comment_118760047

Tell me then, are trains creating danger when people stupidly walk out in front of them?

Do you think pedestrians shouldn't take an ounce of responsibility when negotiating urban streets?

You only experience danger if you are woeffully unobservant or aren't street smart.

Yeah, cars can be weapons in the wrong hands and an already large amount of onus is on drivers on behalf and for the safety of pedestrians and cyclists as well as other motorists.

It is because of the ambiguity of responsibility among pedestrians that jaywalking has been banned in many parts of the world and rightly so. It eradicates the double-standard seen in many pedestrians where they claim victimhood regardless of how unobservant they were.

magicbastarder

trains? do you want help carrying those goalposts?

Del2005

There's zero enforcement of the current 30kph zones so what difference will making more 30kph zones do? It won't help the person who gets badly injured or killed by saying the driver was going too fast.

Travel Dublin's quays or the other 30kph zones and even Dublin Buses ignore it. Go into any housing estate in SDCC driving at 30kph and people are up your arse the whole time. My parents live in a 50kph estate in DLRDCC and they regularly have cars travelling much faster than that. Even the 30kph school zones are completely ignored.

30kph zones are good in theory but since there will be zero enforcement it's just politicians and lobby groups getting their name in headlines. It won't make the roads any safer.

Rket4000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118760047#Comment_118760047

Anyone driving a car has an obligation to be aware of what's going on around them, whether it's road conditions, road signage, potential hazards etc. They must also look out for pedestrians, cyclists, and potentially hazardous situations. But everyone who is a road user has some responsibility too. That includes pedestrians. It's crazy how many people walk around on dark nights in badly lit environments in dark clothing making it nearly impossible to see them until you're nearly on top of them. A lot of the time they're "making a run for it" to cross the road ahead of incoming traffic. I saw a guy doing just that one night... The only thing that made him visible was the hi - viz coat...... on his dog!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118759465#Comment_118759465

Yeah, why don’t people look both ways when they’re on the pavement.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/two-hospitalised-after-driver-loses-control-in-dublin-crash-mounts-pavement-1.4819832

And why don’t babies look both ways when crossing on green pedestrian lights?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/man-given-suspended-sentence-for-breaking-red-light-and-hitting-baby-buggy-1.4816756?mode=sample

And why don’t men look both ways when crossing on the green pedestrian light to avoid the driver who had nine seconds to respond to the changing light?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/woman-22-spared-jail-for-fatally-injuring-man-after-driving-through-red-light-1.4810252

Victim blame much, Patrick?

GLaDOS

Wasn't this proposed and rejected in the last year or two?

Edit: in Dublin specifically https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-city-council-rejects-blanket-ban-on-speeds-above-30km-h-1.4354842

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118762482#Comment_118762482

yes, and i think the gardai washed their hands of policing this.

zell12

2020- Galway Garda Chief Superintendent backs 30kmph citywide speed limit

spaceHopper

Of all the way's to make our roads safer this isn't one of them

Fix the roads they are in state

Improve driver training and education

Educate kids on a road safety, mine have been told endless times to look for cars, not to cross between cars... but they still don't do it consistently

Get cyclists to uses high vis and lights that are better than pound shop sh1t

Make it an offence to use a bike with defective brakes and enforce it.

Get cyclist to slow down and obey the rules of the road.

Cars aren't made to drive at 30 to do will take to much attention to staying under 30 instead of paying attention to what's around me.

I had it drilled into me to read the road as far ahead as possible, my wife didn't you can see it in her driving. Getting her to drive at 30 will be battle of stop watching the speed and look out for that walker or bike or other car.

Having a 30 limit will also annoy drivers to the point that they will rebel against the next road safety plan that might actually be a good idea

patrickbrophy18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118762562#Comment_118762562

See the end of my comment, https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118760115/#Comment_118760115.

Also, I don't know what the point of the rest of your comment is given that the driver in each case was clearly at fault for breaking a red light and wasn't paying attention. As usual, you are spinning things well out of context when I have clearly mentioned numerous times that I don't advocate for motorists who break the rules of the road.

Is this because on another thread, I expressed disgust at parent pedestrians who cross on red with their prams in tow?

If motorists have to obey traffic signals which the majority do, it is not unreasonable to expect other road user groups to do the same. Otherwise, the road system continues to be plagued by double standards.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118762984#Comment_118762984

You make six points about making roads safer.

3 of them are about cyclists.

1 of them is about pedestrians (children in fact)

1 of them is about fixing the infrastructure

1 of them is about changing driver behaviour

100% of fatal road accidents in Ireland involve motor vehicles. More than 99% of injuries involve motor vehicles.

A driver of a vehicle is deemed to be at fault in more than 95% of incidents.

The condition of the road is deemed to be a factor (not the primary cause) in around 10% of incidents.

When it comes to making roads safer, it's pretty clear that measures to control driver behaviour and reduce the impact of driver mistakes, is the only game in town. Applying more laws to cyclists and educating pedestrians will do next to fvck all to stop drivers from running them down.

spaceHopper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763060#Comment_118763060

My aunt had her arm broken by a guy on bike, old lady living next to my inlaws was hit buy one when she had green man to cross broke her arm and cracked her pelvis.

My kids and a lot of others I see don't look when crossing, if they step out in front of a car do we blame them or driver.

Less so now that bikes have disk brakes but it was very common to see bikes be broken or opened front brakes.

Where I work you often can't see bikes in winter because they are to cheap to have lights that work. That should be enforced. I nearly hit one dressed as ninja in all black with no light in the pissing rain.

Guy I work with has been in too many crashes where he was simply going to fast, somebody around him makes a mistake but he's going to fast to deal with it. He killed a dog on lead where the owner stepped of the path and he went into the lead dragging the dog for bit. He got doored when a car stopped infor of him. He came off when a lady stepp infot of him, he's alway going at max pace. All of these weren't his fault but if he's been going 10K slower they probable wouldn't have happened.

Like I said I read the road but a lot of drives aren't great at it and are very reactionary so if they are focused on keeping below 30 their eye is not on the road. Also cars aren't geared to drive at 30 so it's not going to be easy.

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118762984#Comment_118762984

What an awful take, if you can't drive safely at 30kph then you really shouldn't be on the road, and if you're car isn't capable of driving at 30kph then that car shouldn't be on the road. As to the rest, its classic victim blaming. Being a pedestrian or cyclist isn't inherently dangerous, its the presence of cars on the road that make these things dangerous.

JazzyJ

Get cyclist to slow down

Cars aren't made to drive at 30 

I'm not really sure there's any point arguing against this point of view.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763227#Comment_118763227

Sounds like if he had eaten some food instead of maybe going to fast then he would have had more energy for concentration.

Still don't know what that's got to do with slowing vehicular traffic down in cities.

It's actually mad argument to make. Assuming you meant "too fast" you are proposing that everyone else has to slow down because it takes drivers too much concentration to stick to a speed limit?

I sincerely hope you don't drive.

km991148

The only annoying thing about having to slow down the vehicles is that it means we all suffer and have to slow down. Obviously we can still cycle above 30 when the occasion arises, but still too many cars cluttering up the place.

I'd be more in favour of charging for city centre vehicle use (if it would actually reduce cars on the road). Happy to pay a couple quid when I need to drive in.

Chris_5339762

What I don't like is the tailgating, flashing, hooting and general abuse when I actually stick to the 30kmh, which is my diesel is annoying as its a bit too high rev for 2nd gear but a bit too low for 3rd gear.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763414#Comment_118763414

I'd be more in favour of charging for city centre vehicle use (if it would actually reduce cars on the road). Happy to pay a couple quid when I need to drive in.

Same as, for the few times I ever need to actually use a car/van these days.

There are plans being progressed for congestion charging in Cork & Dublin, no idea how far along they are though. It was proposed as part of the 5 cities demand management strategy.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118759474#Comment_118759474

so you think that if the speed limit was reduced to 30k that the average speed would remain at 28.5 is it?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763227#Comment_118763227

My aunt had her arm broken by a guy on bike, old lady living next to my inlaws was hit buy one when she had green man to cross broke her arm and cracked her pelvis.

...and what? Do you want to tell us all of your anecdotes of people you vaguely know who were hit by a driver? This avenue of thinking is just stupid and does nothing but try and deflect from what Seamus has already pointed out.

My kids and a lot of others I see don't look when crossing, if they step out in front of a car do we blame them or driver.

Yes we blame the driver. If there are kids along a roadside then a driver needs to presume that one might do something stupid. Same as if you are driving past an animal. If you are not prepared for the unexpected then you are not driving safely.

Less so now that bikes have disk brakes but it was very common to see bikes be broken or opened front brakes.

Your point being?

I have a bike with rim brakes and another with disk brakes. How does either stop a dickhead driver passing me too closely?

Where I work you often can't see bikes in winter because they are to cheap to have lights that work. That should be enforced. I nearly hit one dressed as ninja in all black with no light in the pissing rain.

Maybe your employer should pay people more so they can afford better quality lights?

As for enforcing it - given that there is no law on the intensity of a bicycle light, how would you propose enforcing it? (Although I am all for them putting in place minimum intensity standards)

Guy I work with has been in too many crashes where he was simply going to fast, somebody around him makes a mistake but he's going to fast to deal with it. He killed a dog on lead where the owner stepped of the path and he went into the lead dragging the dog for bit. He got doored when a car stopped infor of him. He came off when a lady stepp infot of him, he's alway going at max pace. All of these weren't his fault but if he's been going 10K slower they probable wouldn't have happened.

They weren't his fault? Seriously? Your viewpoint is seriosuly flawed if you think that!

So how will enforcing your earlier points stop your colleague from inflicting further damage on vulnerable road users?

Like I said I read the road but a lot of drives aren't great at it and are very reactionary so if they are focused on keeping below 30 their eye is not on the road. Also cars aren't geared to drive at 30 so it's not going to be easy.

That's utter sh1te. If you can't drive at or under this speed then please hand back your licence.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763060#Comment_118763060

Less than a quarter of road fatalities occurred on an urban road last year.

The safety argument for it is not sufficiently significant to justify such a measure. Proponents will try and say it’s for safety but it just isn’t.

I’ll repeat what I said earlier in the thread, there is hardly any popular support for this measure - it’s a pet project for the cycling lobby. Can even see it in this thread, the vast majority posting in favour of this are also regular posters in the cycling forum. And yes, before you tell me, yes I know ye are also motorists as well as cyclists. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s cyclists in the main seeking this change.

I wonder if there was a 30k limit would the bus driver still have done this dangerous overtaking move of a mother and her child

https://twitter.com/FHmediastuff/status/1501636054583070724?s=20&t=2mmUVNIT3qYRNZkplDtfZA

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763731#Comment_118763731

I really dont think it is a cyclist thing. Cyclists generally want fewer cars on the roads, not slower.

As a city dweller id be for it just for the noise pollution aspect and other benefits (less wear and tear, environmental etc). But tbh I really don't see the big deal - there really are few places you can drive in the city above 30 or so anyway and when it does - who will stop you? AGS? pft..

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763731#Comment_118763731

It's not the only measure on the books. Other areas can be tackled with other measures. We don't have to ignore this one just because it's not the biggest. And if it can make a dent in that quarter, then what's the problem?

I'm not going to argue whether this is a popular measure. That's irrelevant. If we based road safety rules on what was popular, we'd have no seat belts or alcohol limits and most roads would have a limit of at least 60km/h.

The maths on it is clear. Collisions at lower speeds cause lesser injuries. Most collisions with vulnerable roads users occur in urban areas. Therefore lower speeds in urban areas will result in fewer serious injuries.

Fairly straightforward. Can you provide any reason why such a limit would result in no change? Arguments about it being "hard" to drive at 30, or whataboutery is irrelevant. It's a simple ask - will a 30km/h limit result in less serious injuries and fatalities?

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763731#Comment_118763731

I haven't been on a bike in 30 years. I don't like them. I also don't like most cyclists whom I encounter on the roads, especially the Sunday ones in all their ludicrous gear, displaying nothing but contempt for public transport, refusing to move over into the cycle lane or pause for a second to let a bus safely pass. Or worse still, overtaking a bus that's trying to exit a bus stop and then delaying it again further down the road.

However, I 100% support 30km/h speed limits in all urban areas. If someone finds it difficult to drive at that speed, it's not the fault of their car's gearing. It's the fault of the idiot behind the wheel. They shouldn't be allowed to drive.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058236619/30k-speed-limits-for-all-urban-areas-on-the-way

Oireachtas committees get submissions like this all the time and anyone can make a submission to a committee. They generally mean very little as they are aimed at informing the executive branch. All they can do is recommend policies and the government can simply ignore it.

As others have observed apart from national laws defining speed limits, it's councils who make the call on where to apply them and they are neither practical nor enforceable in most most parts large urban conurbations. As one of the 2% who respects the 30 kph it requires a lot of concentration to drive at 60% of the first national limit of 50 kph. TBH the DCC approach to it so far has been sensible and they have confined it to more residential and smaller streets where anything above that speed is really unjustified.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763731#Comment_118763731

Less than a quarter of road fatalities occurred on an urban road last year.

What's your point? Were those deaths ok?

The safety argument for it is not sufficiently significant to justify such a measure. Proponents will try and say it’s for safety but it just isn’t.

It is for safety, to reduce pollution, general health and various other reasons including making areas communities again. Why should our towns be designed to suit people driving through them rather than paople walking and living there?

I’ll repeat what I said earlier in the thread, there is hardly any popular support for this measure - it’s a pet project for the cycling lobby. Can even see it in this thread, the vast majority posting in favour of this are also regular posters in the cycling forum. And yes, before you tell me, yes I know ye are also motorists as well as cyclists. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s cyclists in the main seeking this change.

I keep hearing that term - what is the "cycling lobby". Have they a representative lobby organisation now funded by the cycling industry? Maybe soon, they will get free airtime on all the radio stations!

As for the popularity of the move, there are many who would like their kids to be able to walk or cycle to school and are afraid of doing so because of the percieved dangers on the roads.

Anyhow, the proposal is not to set everythign to 30km/h and the plan has not been discussed with the populace or the councils in any detail so it is not true to say that there is hardly any support for it. The proposal is to set a defaulf of 30km/h for all roads and for any roads to have a higher speed limit then there needs to be a justification for it. Surely if in your view most roads are safe to do a higher speed and everyone wants it, what it the problem with this approach?

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763879#Comment_118763879

Anyhow, the proposal is not to set everything to 30km/h and the plan has not been discussed with the populace or the councils in any detail so it is not true to say that there is hardly any support for it. 

It's not even a proposal it's a bog standard submission to an Oireachtas committee, one of the very many they receive.

I'm also not sure about the claims about kids wanting to walk or cycle to school. In my experience it's proximity that decides that and some urban streets have challenges with car and bike traffic combined, regardless of the speed of vehicles.

As for the question of ability to drive at that speed it is not part of any training and it takes some effort to do so for an extended period, which would be the case if this became far more commonplace in urban areas.