30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817702#Comment_118817702

There's no WWW in my URLs.

You know this discussion is about specific planned traffic measures IN IRELAND?

Is all this overseas guff just to cover up your mistake in thinking that speed limits apply to cyclists?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817764#Comment_118817764

Galway seems very backwards and anti cycling but pro cars and congestion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817764#Comment_118817764

Maybe, we'll have to wait and see although the Councillors have been pushing for this for several years so I wouldn't rule it out

zell12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817851#Comment_118817851

Minister for Transport said so earlier this month

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817773#Comment_118817773

I assume they have a computer system to resynchronize it all. It's all run by a computer controlled office.

Perhaps not the ones outside the city center in the suburbs. The timing on those seems to be crazy.

zell12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817866#Comment_118817866

Some Cllrs have been pushing. There is an election in two years, imagine the grief they'll get if they 'restrict the freedom' of the motorist

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817906#Comment_118817906

There's different modes I think. Timed for peak periods and "sensor" mode off peak (and hybrid modes in between).

I don't think lights are chained together or controlled by any central computer - maybe multiple lights at one big junction like O'Connell Bridge in Dublin.

This is not based on inside knowledge - just assumptions and internet reading over the years - so could be completely wrong!

Flinty997

I remember reading an article about the quays having a green wave. Can't find anything on it now. Maybe they removed it, or didn't implement it.

magicbastarder

i can't see how you could have a green wave, except at times the traffic is really quiet? surely the traffic which gets the green wave would catch up with the traffic which passed by a little earlier, who didn't catch the green wave?

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817816#Comment_118817816

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817972#Comment_118817972

All bets are off if you're traveling in congestion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118817906#Comment_118817906

The dublininquirer link I posted on the previous explains how Dublin City manage traffic or at least managed at the time it was published.

This is growing legs around the world. Wales now looking to make 20mph (30kph) the standard speed limit across the board, for all urban (restricted) roads.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-62020427

Scotland looking to do the same from 2025

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1487937/new-driving-law-speed-limit-changes-restrictions-snp-green-party

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119327637#Comment_119327637

Be better to spend time trying to fix the reasons that people are forced into cars.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119327812#Comment_119327812

One is not a pre-requisite for the other.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119327837#Comment_119327837

Perhaps, but we both know they'll put all their focus on the speed limit and ignore all the issues that force people into cars.

And we'll end up with even more cars on the road and probably no enforcement of the limit either.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119328037#Comment_119328037

The majority of people are not "forced" into cars, certainly not in city centres.

patrickbrophy18

If it winds up crippling the performance of cross city bus services, I can't see commuters using these services being too happy or using them anymore.

While forcing people into their cars might be a stretch, a large number of car trips are surely made to compensate for the lack of an efficient, timely and direct public transport system from their point of origin. They will be less timely and efficient with these new speed limits.

Unfortunately, living in homes next to decent public transport systems has become a luxury which makes their affordability nigh on impossible for working to middle class. Usually, the added accessibility results in an extra 100K to 200K tacked on to the prices of nearby properties. The irony here is that the only people who would be able to afford them would choose to use the car.

If these speed limits wind up being streamlined into the suburbs, it will certainly bastardise projects like Bus Connects due to the increased journey lengths. In other words, infrastructure designed to improve performance will have their performance crippled with new speed limits. Consequently, these measures will be inherently self defeating on a macro level.

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334146#Comment_119334146

The performance of bus journeys will be "crippled"? How fast do you think Dublin buses are travelling on average? Do you think they're travelling at 50km/h for the majority of their journey time, or is most of the time spent pulling in to stops and stopping at lights? I'd love to see a single shred of evidence for any of your claims on this.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335151#Comment_119335151

So it's average speed you are concerned about? So you are fine with a bus currently doing 50km per hour while it's moving so long as it's average journey time is below 30 km per hour?

This bus being multiple times the weight of a car and typically travelling in the lane nearest the kerb/pedestrians

If this is ok, what's wrong with a car moving at 50 km per hour

magicbastarder

far from me to interpret buffalo's words for him, but 'i am sceptical that buses routinely reach 50km/h' =/= 'i am perfectly OK with buses routinely doing 50km/h'

mickdw

Buffalo doesn't say they don't believe they reach 50. In any event they clearly do reach 50 multiple times on every route.

That being the case, journey time will be increased by these proposals even if currently the average speed is under 30.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119334146#Comment_119334146

If it winds up crippling the performance of cross city bus services, I can't see commuters using these services being too happy or using them anymore.

It won't "cripple" anything so we can remove that concern. If anything a blanket 30km speed limit would improve any disparity in journey times between cars and public transport. Ultimately though the increased journey time from this would be fairly low

buffalo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335353#Comment_119335353

My point is that they reach 50km/h for very small stretches, so the claim that a 30km/h limit will 'cripple' service is very hard to justify. There are more significant factors like congestion, drivers abusing bus lanes, number of junctions, number of stops...

railer201

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335744#Comment_119335744

They must have had the 30kph limit in mind when they named the new bus system 'Bus Connects'. Unlike the DART which includes 'Rapid', there is no such connotation with Bus Connects. It will connect, no doubt, but how long will journeys take, at this retarded speed ?

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119328463#Comment_119328463

My regular journey is from Kildare to Grand Canal Dock. I do this at least twice a week, sometimes more.

On a weekday, I can use a train through the Phoenix Park Tunnel which takes 75-80 minutes. It runs hourly, but that's manageable. On a weekend our wonderful rail company doesn't feel the need to use the PPT, and as a result the journey time is closer to two hours when you allow for changing to Luas at Heuston and changing again at Connolly.

In either case the fare is the region of €14 round trip. I haven't done it in a few weeks because it costs less than half that amount to do the round trip in our EV, with the added convenience and a journey time of 45 minutes off peak.

If I have to travel at rush hour on a weekday then I'll use the train because the reduced stress is worth the extra cost, but outside of that it really doesn't make sense for me. I cannot be the only one.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339194#Comment_119339194

I highly doubt you are the only one. You are also not even close to representative of the majority of car journeys, which are much, much shorter.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339091#Comment_119339091

People are massively overestimating the time impact of this measure.

And with the current pitiful state of enforcement of traffic laws in Ireland the time impact is likely to be zero.

When I see these 30km threads, I always see the word safety mentioned a lot. Look at our statistics over the last decade though. The figures are not bad at all.

Banning all vehicles is the only option if we want to get that to 0.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340419#Comment_119340419

Our road death figures have certainly improved from a fairly horrendous base, but we're still a long way from 'not bad'. We are still seeing 2 or 3 road deaths most weeks. That's 2 or 3 families devastated, lives changed beyond their worst nightmares most weeks. You never get over it.

It's only not the only important measure. There's no point in boasting about low road deaths when we've effectively scared people off walking and cycling. In the last Census, we have more secondary school girls DRIVING THEMSELVES to school than cycling to school, less that one girl per school cycling on average, a huge drop over previous years. We need to be measure how people feel safe to walk or cycle.

magicbastarder

Look at our statistics over the last decade though.

such as historically low levels of kids cycling to school, because it's too dangerous to?

the number (per capita) of kids cycling to primary school in the netherlands utterly dwarfs the number cycling to secondary school in ireland. you can't point at KSI stats for ireland and say 'job done'.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340547#Comment_119340547

it's worth pointing out that in relation to that stat about more secondary school girls reporting as driving themselves to school; in reality, if the statistic is accurate, that figure for drivers could really only be drawn from 5th and 6th years; whereas those cycling to school could be drawn from all 5 or 6 years. so if you were to just compare fifth and sixth years cycling to fifth and sixth years driving, it'd look noticeably worse for cycling.

also; perhaps the stat is due to people filling out the census form incorrectly. but that would illustrate the vanishingly small number of girls cycling to school, if people filling out the census incorrectly on that question can outnumber those cycling.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340562#Comment_119340562

I don't honestly know why Netherlands has a better cycle culture. I think most other countries have much better rail and underground networks.

That's likely what removes the cars off the roads.

Sadly we are decades away from that.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339906#Comment_119339906

That's fair.

I think the point I was trying to make though was that if you make public transport affordable and convenient, then people will use it. Again to use my own example, I'd take the train all the time if it wasn't more than twice the price of driving.

The numbers should be the other way round.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340683#Comment_119340683

People absolutely love driving in the Netherlands. They drive all over Europe on their holidays and their motorways can be absolute nightmares. They have made a conscious choice to build and renovate their cities so that cars are forced to slow down and give right of way to other road users.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342733#Comment_119342733

Also fair. Intercity fares are not cheap enough in Ireland. I think the Dublin network fares are completely reasonable - it is now basically 2€ to get anywhere on the network. At that stage its not price driving people's choices.

I have far less faith than you that people will choose public transport if it is affordable and convenient though - there is a massive reluctance to give up car travel. We have people whose first choice for a 2k journey is to hop in the car...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342775#Comment_119342775

Yup, it regularly gets voted as one of the best places to drive

https://fortune.com/2015/09/30/best-country-drive-waze/

https://www.comparethemarket.com.au/car-insurance/features/best-countries-for-driving

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342733#Comment_119342733

In the past few months public transport fares have been cut by 20% and fuel for your car has increased in price by about 50%, which I think makes your comment seem a bit odd. Also to say that the train is more than twice the price of driving, may if there are 4 of you in the car but for a lone traveller totally untrue if you factor in the costs of driving properly.

Noxegon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342783#Comment_119342783

If you're going within the Short Hop Zone, yes. That zone should really be extended out further than it is, though.

Bray to Maynooth is about 46km, and a one way costs €2.

Heuston to Newbridge is about 42km, and a one way costs €10.85 – I just pulled that figure off the Irish Rail website a few moments ago.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342820#Comment_119342820

You're making a specious argument there.

The car that I use – an EV – is a sunk cost. It's insured. It is required for journeys where public transport is not available. The overall cost of running the vehicle doesn't change in any significant way when I decide to drive into Dublin instead of taking the train. To that end, "the costs of driving" are not relevant here.

It costs €14 round trip for me to do Kildare to Grand Canal Dock by train.

It costs roughly €6 worth of electricity to do the round trip, and that's accounting for recent price rises.

Another serious crash this morning at a junction that constantly has crashes and fatalities. Won't mention exact location out of respect.

Have contacted TDs before to take action and still nothing.

If we really care about safety we need to be focusing more on these things than limits on already safe roads.

Seth Brundle

Whilst road engineering has a part to play in road safety, collisions at a junction usually are a direct result of a driver driving at an inappropriate speed.

horse7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118758411#Comment_118758411

Pedestrian,s are quite safe on the footpath, it's when I they cross the road problems can arise.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346694#Comment_119346694

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/several-people-hospitalised-after-car-mounts-footpath-in-offaly-41164692.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/jogger-killed-when-hit-by-van-on-walkway-was-mother-of-four-1.4193893

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1922605/pedestrian-24-died-of-severe-brain-injury-after-he-was-horrifically-struck-by-car-after-motorist-lost-control-of-his-saab-convertible-and-mounted-pavement-in-dublin-inquest-hears/

Sadly there are many more examples.

railer201

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346860#Comment_119346860

So where would you recommend pedestrians walk ? If footpaths are unsafe as your post infers, would you suggest they use the roads instead ?

This is the problem when you try to make exceptions to the rule the actual rule itself. If you find a safer place for pedestrians to walk, other than footpaths, do let us know.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346694#Comment_119346694

seems cars are also quite safe on the footpath too.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119347131#Comment_119347131

I honestly don't know if you're being thick or just argumentative for the sake of it?

One poster states their agreement with the reduction from 50km/h to 30km/h because of the documented safety improvements. Another poster disputes that by claiming that pedestrians are safe when they are on the foot path, clear inference is that this makes the speed reduction unnecessary.

I then point out, with evidence, that higher speeds leads to death on footpaths too and you conclude from that that I believe pedestrians should walk somewhere other than the footpath, rather than the obvious inference that I agree speed reductions would increase the safety of pedestrians on footpaths? Seriously?

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346860#Comment_119346860

These cases are extremely rare, given that the articles you posted all date back years, in one case 2017. And your 2020 case showed that the driver in question was a complete maniac, driving for 1km on a fully segregated path. How exactly would carpet bombing the country with crawling speed limits stop maniacs who seem to be determined to cause havoc?

patrickbrophy18

Maybe restrict these limits to peak times or when pedestrians and cyclists are more likely to be on the streets in large numbers. Many (not all) of these 30 KMH speed limits are more to do with inconveniencing motorists in the guise of road safety. If it was part of a variable limit which adjusted itself to account for built up conditions, I could understand. However, having it in place all the time even when it is quiet is ridiculous.

I get having them in cul de sacs and residential side streets 24/7 but, they are not suitable on main roads or arterial routes. A prime example of this is the ludicrous 30KMH speed limit through the Phoenix Park thoroughfare. It isn't exactly a built up area and the sight lines are very clear the entire way up. Maybe, have pedestrian crossings with speed ramps at key points like the Zoo, Wellington Monument and other points where people are likely to gather en masse. Aside from that, having it the entire way up is complete overkill.

As @SeanW rightly pointed out, many of the examples people have given are cases where drivers are being criminally reckless and not sticking to the road and mounting pavements and not respecting boundaries. Given the obvious threat to human and animal life, they have no business driving. This has less to do with speed limits and everything to do with thuggish behaviour.

SeanW

I just re-read the article about the 2020 case and according to the reporting, that driver may have had some kind of medical issue. Wouldn't surprise if it weren't the same in some of the other cases.

As to the poster above referring to the supposed lack of schoolchildren cycling to school, it must be noted that there are issues semi-specific to Ireland when it comes to school transport. That is, that Ireland cannot guarantee a school place to a child in a given location. In the U.S. for example, a country famously car dependent where it's not uncommon for people to drive "gas guzzler" SUVs and pickup trucks that are taller than the people driving/riding in them, most children that live too far from a school to walk are provided with a bus service. The reason for that is simple: education is a municipal matter in the US and municipalities plan for education locally and typically guarantee a school place in an appropriate school to a child for any given level in any given part of their area. It then becomes very easy to plan transport around this and school buses are the norm. For that reason, it is very rare for a child to be driven/drive to school unless as a lifestyle choice, as it is rarely necessary.

magicbastarder

'the supposed lack of schoolchildren cycling to school' - the number cycling to school based on the 2016 census is one sixth what it was when I was cycling to school (late 80s/early 90s). That's not down to issues with getting a space in the local school, that's down to parents being too afraid to let their kids cycle (among other reasons)

As has been mentioned, based on the census returns of 2016, more female students drive themselves to school than cycle. That's an eye popping statistic.