30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813005#Comment_118813005

I’m not saying they’re slowed by cars or traffic, I’m saying if you’re in an urban area and the road isn’t overly congested they want to be able to cycle faster than the car is legally allowed drive. 30kmph is nothing difficult on a bike

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813102#Comment_118813102

Ok.

And what has this got to do with a 30km urban speed limit again?

magicbastarder

cyclists want to be able to get from A to B safely and efficiently. the vast majority of them don't really care all that much if a car driver making the same trip does it five minutes faster or slower than them; that's an argument you've concocted in your own head.

What we really should be doing is trying to improve the housing crisis, improve public transport and move more jobs outside city centre in Dublin.

All of those things would really help to remove huge amounts of cars from the streets which is the real goal.

Sadly what we'll get is nonsense speed limits that are not enforced or obeyed while ignoring the big problems

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812071#Comment_118812071

Who exactly is proposing to "carpet-bomb" the country with 30km/h limits (maybe provide a source please as I've missed it)? As I understand it, the proposal is to set a default limit of 30km/h in urban areas and any increases over that limit need to be justified. What exactly is wrong with that? Surely if a road can safely sustain higher speeds for motorised vehicles then surely there will be no problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812844#Comment_118812844

In terms of the claim that it is cyclists who want to be faster tha cars - what is this based upon? As someone who both drives and cycles (including club cycling), I've not met anyone who has made this claim or anything like it. I'm curious where you're getting your information or are you just making stuff up?

As for safety, most parents won't let their children walk to school never mind cycle. The main reason is a percieved fear for fast moving traffic. We have created a car dependent society and the likes of the nonsense you've posted is simply looking for someone to blame for any attempt to change from that. Why not blame the IPCC because their report is more likely to force a change in our transport structures:

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg2/

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118759854#Comment_118759854

Are people obeying the 50kp/h limits losing control and ending up mowing people down on foot paths theses days?

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118763414#Comment_118763414

Can’t be done fairly without massive public transport improvements. All well and good if you only need to go in there once in a while by car. Not if you’ve to drive from 50 or 60 miles away for work every day. Nothing will change with congestion and this risk for pedestrians and cyclists until we have proper public transport imo.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813186#Comment_118813186

It has everything to do with Seanie’s position of drivers being a great bunch of lads.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813183#Comment_118813183

Who told you that this is all about cyclists wanting to be able to cycle faster than the car is legally allowed to drive?

This is the multidisciplinary MSc in Sustainable Transport and Mobility at TU Dublin informing the Oireachtas Committee on Transport.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813183#Comment_118813183

"Overly Congested". Congestion doesn't effect cyclists like that. You're thinking from the perspective of a driver.

Average speed of UK cyclist is around 25kph. Google has it set about 16kph or so. Cyclists speed is mostly constrained by their ability to stop safely and not die.

30kph has no effect on cyclists other than safety. It changes driver behavior not cyclists.

Your username is poorly chosen btw.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118812967#Comment_118812967

I'm actually in favour of 30kph speed limits in built up urban environments where there are lots of pedestrians and cyclists sharing the roads with cars, however, to say that a 30kph speed limit won't affect journey times because average speeds are lower than 30kph is a bit mistaken

The only reason the average speed is slightly below 30kph now, is because drivers can make up for some of the time stopped or crawling along, by travelling at 50kph in the less congested areas. If those areas were all cut to 30kph speed limits, the average speed would be significantly below 30kph and journey times may increase.

The potential upside of this, would be that as cars drive more slowly and uniformly, there might be more opportunities for traffic to merge from side roads and this might reduce congestion in this regard but this would need to be demonstrated or modelled as it could go either way in practice.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813303#Comment_118813303

You're thinking about this backwards. If you prevent people from doing things they will create demand for alternative choices.

Look at all these places who didn't allow wfh until they had to.

magicbastarder

The only reason the average speed is slightly below 30kph now, is because drivers can make up for some of the time stopped or crawling along, by travelling at 50kph in the less congested areas. If those areas were all cut to 30kph speed limits, the average speed would be significantly below 30kph and journey times may increase.

my usual example - DCU to UCD is an 11km trip (and it's an hour or two after rush hour), and at the moment is a 31 minute trip on roads which are 90% set to 50km/h limit. that's an average speed of 21.3km/h - on roads with over double that as a speed limit.

yes, the trip would be slower if the limit was 30km/h, but as the majority if the trip is already made at under 30, the effect won't be nearly as much as people think.

the absolute maximum theoretical difference on an 11km trip - where the driver is able to drive uninterrupted at 50km/h instead of 30km/h (no lights, no traffic, etc) is less than nine minutes. as the driver won't be able to come close to achieving this utopia, i suspect the actual difference would be easily less than half that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813102#Comment_118813102

Once again I ask what has this to do with the topic under discussion.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813389#Comment_118813389

One of the reasons for proposed lower limits on motorways and smart motorways Is that a consistent lower limits actually moves traffic more effectively then speeding up and down.

Ever find it hard to pull out of junction because cars are moving too fast.

Flinty997

You don't drive in isolation. You're limited by other traffic. It's not what moves you faster. It's what moves everyone more efficiently.

jmayo

What is the definition of urban area?

For instance is the Rock Road in Booterstown to Blackrock included as it is urban area?

What about Stillorgan dual carriageway or the Wolfe Tone Quay or Victoria Quay out at Heuston station?

What about Dublin Road out by Parkway shopping centre in Limerick or the Ballysimon Road ?

Is the Lough Atalia Road in Galway part of Galway city that the Chief Superintendent wants to implement as a 30kph zone ?

And we all know why a Garda wants to bring this in and it is because it will be like shooting fish in a barrel for his lads to dish out penalty points and more importantly fines that will make his division and by extension himself look good.

Most people would consider these to be in the cities concerned, but yet they are pretty good roads and critical to moving traffic into and out of the cities.

A 30kph on these roads would be infantile, but we all know how some will go to any lengths to push their agenda.

Remember the clammer by some for a zero drink drive limit that would have your granny over the limit due to her sherry trifle.

Murt10

An 18MPH (30kps) speed limit was introduced along the full length of the main road in the Phoenix Park between Castleknock and the Quays. At the same time they have also installed those big spikes in the ground to "protect" cyclists at the same time.

I drove through the park the other night. It's now much much more dangerous. it's scary.

You're now trying to avoid the spikes, traffic coming towards you(also pushed out into the middle of the road by the spikes) and keep your eye on the speedo to make sure your not exceeding the ridicilous speed limit. All the while you're also trying to keep an eye out for deer who are well known for charging across the road in front of you in the dark.

Dedicated cycle paths down parallel to the along the main road about 5meters in from the main road a few years ago. Why don't they force the cyclists to use these cycle pats that was provided for them for their safety, instead of making the park much more dangerous place for everyone else.

The lunatics are well and truly running the asylum.

I've voted Green party every election up to this. I'll be very surprised if they're not wiped out totally in the next election, and they'll have completely brought it on themselves.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813383#Comment_118813383

Once again, I'm not talking about the effect of congestion on cyclists, I'm talking about the effect of congestion on cars. It makes them go slower. Cars can go faster if there's less congestion to slow them down. If you've clear roads in one of these new 30 zones the cyclist will outspeed the car.

And oh no not my username! Why would you hit me where it hurts like that Flinty, why?!

How infantile

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813564#Comment_118813564

Another one that seriously needs to re think their driving if maintaining speed at a given speed limit is too difficult.

I can understand all sorts of arguments for not wanting the lower speed limit or the wands up the cycle lanes (I personally dislike them as both driver and cyclist) but the argument that "it is too difficult to keep an eye on your speed at 30kmph" just doesn't wash. If you struggle its time to consider alternative modes of transport. Maybe try cycling - the 30kmph limit doesn't apply so one less thing to worry about!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813570#Comment_118813570

But the intent is to have go slower all the time. Not just when its congested.

I'm not sure why this is difficult to grasp.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813564#Comment_118813564

While I would agree the limit of 30 is stupid in the park on the main road.

A car with speed limiter or cruise control will solve the problem of being unable to drive at those speeds. Danger of severe injury increases with speed not decreases. Though if a speed limit is inappropriate it can increase the frequency of minor accidents. They can't reapply argue its about safety when there isn't a single pedestrian crossing on the road.

Cyclists were moved to road to deconflict them from pedestrians. That's a story with a long history. As its the fallacy of mandatory cycle lanes. You can't really have a valid opinion of either if you are not aware of the history or the research into it.

You can't really argue it increase or decreases danger without statistics. But there are no reliable statistic or metrics for either argument on this road or path.

The ultimate aim in the park is to remove the majority of car traffic. The OPW have not been shy about this over many years.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813442#Comment_118813442

Please keep up.

I use adaptive cruise control to maintain an indicated 32kmph in a 30kmph zone which runs for a nearly 3KM uninterupted on the far side of the river much to the chagrin of the cyclists(not commuter cyclists) behind me who seem to think the rules don't apply to them. They could slipstream behind my car and obey the speed limit but don't like it.

It is 30kmph because that particular side of the River attracts a lot of pedestrian tourists. There is also a separated bike lane there but this particular type of cyclist doesn't like being slowed down by commuter cyclists either.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813493#Comment_118813493

What is the definition of urban area?

You might define it as a built up area but you are trying to define something to suit an approach to road safety that may also include small villages so I won't box myself into a simple definition here.

For instance is the Rock Road in Booterstown to Blackrock included as it is urban area?

What about Stillorgan dual carriageway or the Wolfe Tone Quay or Victoria Quay out at Heuston station?

What about Dublin Road out by Parkway shopping centre in Limerick or the Ballysimon Road ?

Is the Lough Atalia Road in Galway part of Galway city that the Chief Superintendent wants to implement as a 30kph zone ?

These are roads and not "areas".

Have you asked the Galway Chief Super why he wants to change the limit to 30km/h?

As for the likes of Victoria Quay in Dublin, there are a lot of people either walking or cycling along there. Plus you have large trucks exiting the Diageo plant coupled with traffic changing lanes. Do you really think we should allow faster speeds here and what is your assesment based on?

And we all know why a Garda wants to bring this in and it is because it will be like shooting fish in a barrel for his lads to dish out penalty points and more importantly fines that will make his division and by extension himself look good.

Why? There is plenty of speeding and other road traffic offences being routinely committed but the resources aren't there to police them. The fish in a barrel line is a common enough one to throw out there (I used to throw it out there myself) but look around - where and when was the last garda speed check you saw?

Most people would consider these to be in the cities concerned, but yet they are pretty good roads and critical to moving traffic into and out of the cities.

And what? If they are suitable for speeds higher than 30km/h then they will get them.

A 30kph on these roads would be infantile, but we all know how some will go to any lengths to push their agenda.

Road safety is for all road users not just the ones in the big metal boxes. Surely if experts decide that it is not safe for all road users and there are no alternatives for those whose safety would be compromised by a higher limit, then having a higher limit is not suitable? I'm not sure what is infantile about that. Plus there is no agenda in saying that!

Remember the clammer by some for a zero drink drive limit that would have your granny over the limit due to her sherry trifle.

Nobody is looking for a zero drink driving limit so I'm not sure why you add this!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813685#Comment_118813685

The rules don't apply to them. Speed limits don't apply to cyclists.

Did you know already know this?

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813685#Comment_118813685

The 30kmph rules don't apply to them. There is no legal accurate way to measure the speed. It is a bit annoying being held up with vehicular traffic tbh, but if I want to use the city by bike its something I just have to put up with.. thats the point, its all about compromise.

Question - on the motorway - lots of trucks at ~100kmph and a clear overtaking lane.. do you overtake at 120 - or are you the "particular type" of driver that doesn't like being slown down by slower traffic? Who cares if a cyclist uses a non cycling lane - you should still be grateful they aren't taking up even more space in a car and have already contributed to a smaller size of traffic.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118813685#Comment_118813685

I use adaptive cruise control to maintain an indicated 32kmph in a 30kmph zone which runs for a nearly 3KM uninterupted on the far side of the river much to the chagrin of the cyclists(not commuter cyclists) behind me who seem to think the rules don't apply to them. They could slipstream behind my car and obey the speed limit but don't like it.

I assume the river is the Liffey. When I cycle along there I don't slipstream behind cars becaue I'm using the bus lane &/or cycle path. I've yet to see people cycling choose not to use these and trail one of the cars in the adjacent lane!

It is 30kmph because that particular side of the River attracts a lot of pedestrian tourists. There is also a separated bike lane there but this particular type of cyclist doesn't like being slowed down by commuter cyclists either.

I'm curious to know what "this particular type of cyclist" means. You do know that you simply referring to a persion on a bike and they are no different to a person in a car (although possibly healthier!) and no different to a person walking along.

Or do you mean that they don't like being held up by someone moving more slowly than them? Where have I heard that before?

km991148

Inflammatory language like "particular type" just conjures up the image of a person that sees all cyclists as a homogenous group, each with a target on their back.

I could be wrong in that assertion, but that's what springs to mind.

IMO, everything inside of the canals in Dublin (and east of Islandbridge / Kilmainham) should be 30kph without exception, and cameras installed. Outside of that, key arterial roads could be 50kph by exception (but all residential still 30kph)