Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Dohnjoe · 21-07-2023 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879574#Comment_120879574

There was no coup in 2014. It's just another "alternative narrative/fact" you've latched onto as part of a pattern of doing so.

grumpyperson · 21-07-2023 1:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879656#Comment_120879656

Mearsheimer calls it a coup.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24483306

Any peer reviewed article to show how deposing democratically elected Yanukovych was not a coup?

You previously had a go at Sachs. Jamie metzel was also unfairly slandered. Both were proven correct by the slack channel exposé.

https://twitter.com/JamieMetzl/status/1682177064361771009

They valiantly battled against a coordinated cover up where people called them all sorts names. If not for the recent release they might still be dismissed as cranks.

As I get older and look back I wonder if it was always just lies e.g. WMD in Iraq etc.

Anyway...

odyssey06 · 21-07-2023 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879732#Comment_120879732

So what if Mearsheimer said that? Did I miss the part where it was established his opinion - and that is all it is - was the sole arbiter?

Does he have insider information confirming it over and above other 'experts'? Nope.

So what if it's peer reviewed? That is a meaningful consideration if we are talking about a scientific paper and proof of a scientific point of fact. Peer review just means in this case he has dates and timelines correct. There is no meaningful way choice of the word 'coup' is subject to 'peer review'. So here it has no bearing. Certainly it has no bearing when presented to 'end' discussion.

You find these random 'experts', some of them in fields entirely unrelated the area under discussion. Some of them eg Sachs absolutely embarrassing and discrediting themselves with conspiracy theory dog whistling about other issues.

I posted an 'expert' rebuttal to Sachs by dozens of contributors. Did you even read it?

Your pretence on this thread is to be swayed by experts. Yet your actions on the thread are demonstrable proof otherwise.

I posted this from the rebuttal from dozens of such experts - you have made zero attempt to respond to it. Which is proof positive you are not here to discuss the topic or consider alternative evidence:

Given that Ukraine’s agreement to give up its nuclear weapons in 1994 in exchange for security “assurances” from the US, UK and Russia (!) did nothing to prevent Russian aggression, currently the only credible guarantee is NATO membership.

Here is another one, directly contradicting Mearsheimer and Sachs:

Let us set the record straight on the historical events from 2013-2014, at which you hint in the aforementioned misinformative statements: The Euromaidan had nothing to do with NATO, nor the US.

So it is plainly obvious you have just locked onto these 'experts' because they agree with your pre-formed anti-US / pro-Russian opinions and no matter what counter evidence is presented, no matter what experts are rolled out to counter it.

Podge_irl · 21-07-2023 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879574#Comment_120879574

Ukrainians have called it the Revolution of Dignity for years.

Ultimately Yanukovych was removed by the parliament and new elections were organised. It really does not follow any reasonable definition of a coup.

Dohnjoe · 21-07-2023 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879732#Comment_120879732

Mearsheimer has been widely criticised for his questionable views (as explained multiple times here)

In 2014 there were widespread popular protests against Yanukovych by Ukrainians. Yanukovych responded with violence, protesters were shot, that escalated and he fled to Russia, leaving behind widespread evidence of his corruption and strong ties with Putin.

In response to these events, the Kremlin created a narrative that it was a "Western plot", which is the standard playbook. It's done for the domestic audience, to portray Russia as the victim of a nefarious foreign plot, rather than the instigator. It's effective, part of the "firehose of falsehood" method of creating so much disinformation that people don't know what to trust, including the truth.

Pick any key event related to Putin from the last 10 years, e.g. Skripal poisoning, Litvinenko murder, downing of MH17, etc and you'll find the corresponding propaganda from the Kremlin that it was a "Western plot". And keep in mind some of it is very clever and devious, they always use an ounce of truth to spin their narratives. To the average lay-person, who doesn't know much about the situation, they can seem very convincing (cough).

Anti-Western individuals latch onto these "plots" because they mirror their own reductionist views. If the person is prominent, the Russian state will naturally invite them onto it's propaganda networks, to amplify the propaganda. Like our friend Sachs. They are called "useful idiots" for a reason.

grumpyperson · 21-07-2023 6:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879962#Comment_120879962

Former Ukrainian diplomate whistleblower discusses the Maidan coup. His words from 10 minutes.

https://youtu.be/pgj3p2jIVtI

It's remarkable that vario senior academics and diplomats consider a coup but anonymous internet poster podge_irl disagrees. I guess the academics, diplomats and dictionary must be wrong?

Economics101 · 21-07-2023 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881011#Comment_120881011

Tha video is from Aaron Mate of Greyzone. Look him up. Has been associated with meetings organised by Russian Federation. Is a denier of Russian attempts to interferw in US electionse. Please don't think we are taken in by this rubbish

odyssey06 · 21-07-2023 6:27pm

@grumpyperson To suggest that only 'anonymous internet posters' dispute the 'coup' narrative is entirely false, without merit or foundation. that can only be made by ignoring the contrary evidence presented to you multiple times on this thread.

And no the dictionary doesn't agree with you either on multiple levels:

a sudden, violent, and unlawful seizure of power from a government

as noted: "Yanukovych was removed by the parliament and new elections were organised."

I would point out multiple posters over the course of the thread, including myself, wrote long rebuttals to the Mearsheimer narrative of events. These were also ignored by you and not engaged with.

So what about these senior academics?

Yuriy Gorodnichenko, professor of economics

Stan Veuger, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research

Pavel Kuchar, Department of Political Economy, King’s College London

There's a hundred more names on the list that dispute and reject the 'coup' narrative.

Let us set the record straight on the historical events from 2013-2014, at which you hint in the aforementioned misinformative statements: The Euromaidan had nothing to do with NATO, nor the US... After the adoption of a set of laws forbidding the freedom of press and assembly (commonly termed the “dictatorship laws”) by Yanukovych in January 2014, the Euromaidan turned into a broader movement against government abuse of power and corruption, police brutality, and human rights violation – which we now refer to as the Revolution of Dignity.

https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2023/03/20/open-letter-to-jeffrey-sachs-on-the-russia-ukraine-war/

Dohnjoe · 21-07-2023 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881011#Comment_120881011

That Youtube channel is a loon conspiracy channel

https://www.youtube.com/%40thegrayzone7996

The guy being interview is Andrii Telizhenko, who is sanctioned for being part of a Russia-linked foreign influence network. Even Trump's administration revoked his visa over election meddling concerns.

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm1232

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-administration-revokes-the-visa-of-a-ukrainian-political-fixer-tied-to-giuliani/2020/10/05/69709bd0-05a4-11eb-a2db-417cddf4816a_story.html

The interviewer is this guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Mat%C3%A9

Presently, Maté works as a reporter for The Grayzone, a far-left news website and blog[8][9] which publishes supportive coverage of the Russian,[8] Syrian,[8] and Chinese governments,[10] including denial of the Uyghur genocide.[8][10] In addition to his work for The Grayzone, Maté has also contributed to The Nation, and appeared several times on Fox News on Tucker Carlson Tonight.[11]

It's remarkable that vario senior academics and diplomats consider a coup

Not really, you are just google searching for individuals with that specific belief and then holding them up. The equivalent of searching for doctors, experts and scientists who are e.g. anti-vax then holding them up whilst ignoring the vast majority who aren't.

Podge_irl · 21-07-2023 6:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881011#Comment_120881011

What makes him a whistleblower? That's just a name you're giving him to make him seem more trustworthy or something.

I have zero time for The Grayzone, but even they manage to make him look untrustworthy in their introduction

Telizhenko worked for the Ukrainian prosecutor general’s office in Kyiv before moving to Ukraine's US Embassy in 2015. He went on to work for Blue Star Strategies, a Democrat-run lobbying firm that represented Burisma, the Ukrainian gas company that appointed Biden’s son Hunter to a lucrative board seat.

Telizhenko, who cooperated with Rudy Giuliani's effort to dig up information about the Bidens' alleged corruption in Ukraine, has been sanctioned by the US Treasury Department for "having directly or indirectly engaged in, sponsored, concealed, or otherwise been complicit in foreign influence in a United States election."

Also he was a diplomat, and a low level one at that, for all of 7 months. You will always find cranks somewhere to back up any ridiculous viewpoint, but this is not a serious individual.

The 2014 Revolution occurred due to Russian interference in the Ukrainian-EU treaty, followed by an absolutely cack-handed response by Yanukovych after which he _fled the country_ and the Parliament unanimously voted to remove him due to his inability or unwillingness to do his job followed by free and fair elections.

So now, let's indeed move to the dictionary

Collins

COUNTABLE NOUN

When there is a coup, a group of people seize power in a country.

Miriam Webset

: a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

Cambridge

a sudden illegal, often violent, taking of government power, especially by part of an army:

What happened does not fit any of these definitions.

grumpyperson · 21-07-2023 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881031#Comment_120881031

Mate is great. Very little money in holding the US to account but he's strongly anti war and does it. He's a show with Katie halper called useful idiots. It's worth checking out if you've time.

Dohnjoe · 21-07-2023 6:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881096#Comment_120881096

Huge Russian money in it, it's a very lucrative circuit.

I protested the Afghanistan and Iraq war in the early 2000's, these people aren't anti-war, they are anti-West. They support Putin's and China's propaganda. This is well past coincidence or naivety on your behalf, you seem to share the same views as these people.

odyssey06 · 21-07-2023 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120881122#Comment_120881122

Exactly. The genuinely anti war don't try to find whatever excuses they can for invasion - as we have seen on this thread about Russia.

They have reached for every propaganda excuse Russia rolled out - NATO, Nazis, genocide. All nonsense.

When Russians themselves - even Prigozhin and Putin - have come out and said it is all about Russian imperialism and plunder, restoring something like the USSR as a Russian empire.

fly_agaric · 22-07-2023 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878090#Comment_120878090

I did not listen to it. It was your other articles (about Bojo's role) that I read + which I was referring to - well apart from the TASS one, I am not reading that. As said I think the scenario unlikely. Don't believe that he, the UK, or even the US govt. would be able to block peace if Ukraine was dead set on settling with Russia no matter what the cost, signing a humiliating (likely temporary) cease fire agreement, and surrending a huge chunk of their country.

All I recall about Sachs was his role as a kind of Free Market Evangelist economic guru that gave what proved to be bad advice to Russia and to other post Soviet states (in the 90s) during the high watermark of the final triumph of American style capitalism over all other political and economic systems past and future and all that.

I see now (from other posts) he seems to have left "the reservation" completely in later life. I googled, and found this interview you might enjoy lol, he gets quite angry and defensive when challenged about his views and his relationship with autocrats and dictators (New Yorker also has to add a load of italic text because there's so much twisting and turning going on)!

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/jeffrey-sachss-great-power-politics

odyssey06 · 22-07-2023 5:07pm

The importance of the West - including its population - ensuring Russia gets the message that Ukraine must prevail, of showing no weakness in support for Ukraine. This will only embolden Putin and Russia to continue with its illegal war and war crimes.

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said this at the Aspen Security Forum on Friday, according to an Ukrinform correspondent:

"The fundamental problem is that President Putin believes, continues to believe, that he can outlast Ukraine and that he can outlast all of Ukraine's supporters. It's vitally important that we disabuse him of that notion," he said.

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3738933-blinken-its-vitally-important-to-convince-putin-that-he-will-not-outlast-ukraine.html

grumpyperson · 22-07-2023 6:12pm

https://voxukraine.org/en/the-ability-of-ukrainians-to-distinguish-messages-of-russian-propaganda-results-of-public-opinion-research

43% of respondents in Ukraine and 36% abroad disagreed with the statement “Nazi and/or neo-Nazi ideology is not widespread in Ukraine”;

Vox Ukraine is new to me. The financials are a bit unclear but it's a Ukraine organisation. According to the pol 43% of people polled in Ukraine now think Nazism is widespread? Seems crazy but there you go.

odyssey06 · 22-07-2023 6:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883838#Comment_120883838

What do you expect when, and this is the context for the poll - direct quote:

The information space of Ukrainians... Russia systematically pollutes it with lies and manipulation... Overall, the majority of respondents, both in Ukraine and abroad, agreed with pro-Ukrainian messages and disagreed with pro-Russian ones. This indicates a general tendency of the population to distinguish Russian propaganda narratives.

Maybe some of the respondents in thinking of Nazi ideology had Russia in mind??? The Nazi aspects to Russian presence in Ukraine are well established especially wrt to the Wagner Group.

And relevant to recent discussions the poll finds that the vast majority of respondents see the Maidan revolution as a democratic revolution of dignity not a coup.

29% of respondents in Ukraine and 35% abroad disagreed with the statement “The Revolution of Dignity in Ukraine in 2013-2014 was NOT a coup”

Of course - and this is implicit in the article - the narratives about Nazis, coup etc should be seen as Russian propaganda, lies and manipulation.

Podge_irl · 23-07-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883838#Comment_120883838

That is an appallingly phrased question that is absolutely guaranteed to confuse people.

Dohnjoe · 23-07-2023 3:49pm

This is in-between daily comments about attacking other European countries and cities

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1683073249037504513

Gatling · 23-07-2023 6:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883573#Comment_120883573

The biggest issue there is Average Joe families across the EU and America they don't give Ukraine a 2nd thought , even here bar refugees the absolute majority of people I know and speak too haven't Mentioned Ukraine in months bar when I bring it up , the cost of living,rte and the weather come up more ,I reckon in the US they are getting bored of the whole situation,they are thinking we have them billions in weapons and support and they are still in the same positions for the last while, the US government is happy to bring Russia to a slow bleed , pretty obvious now ,they have purposely been slow with weapons and supports ,and now have pretty much taken long range weapons off the table ,

purplepanda · 24-07-2023 3:51am

Grumpytankieperson on ignore.

Podge_irl · 24-07-2023 9:33am

https://www.tradewindsnews.com/bulkers/russian-drones-strike-danube-grain-hangar-as-attacks-intensify/2-1-1490356

Well this is pretty awful on several levels.

Ukraine has managed to increase massively its exports via rail and the Danube (still not enough to come close to making up for the lack of vessels, but its something) and this is very much an attempt to disrupt that also. Its just a brazen attempt to stop the export of food so that the world starves.

It's also very close to Romania...

Gatling · 24-07-2023 8:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120889376#Comment_120889376

Putin is holding out for the international community will called for negotiations especially when it's global food supplies being put at risk ,the cost of grains has already increased by 10% globally over the last few days and every time he hits Odessa and other ports,some will benefit the increase in profits others will be calling for an end to this war ,those voices will slowly get louder as this war drags on into another year

grumpyperson · 26-07-2023 2:24am

I heard a lot of commentators referring to a us archive that showed notes of a verbal guarantee for NATO not to move East.

Finally found what looks like it. Think it was declassified in 2017.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).

Fighting Tao · 26-07-2023 6:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896955#Comment_120896955

Gorbachev stated that there was no agreement. I’m sure he’d have known. What’s your next Russian propaganda talking point?

odyssey06 · 26-07-2023 8:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896955#Comment_120896955

NATO and Russia signed a formal treaty 1996, the NATO-Russia Founding Act.

Is there a reason you continue to post pretending to be ignorant of this treaty and play these he said-she said shenanigans?

It is an obviously bad faith argument given this Act has been pointed out to you multiple times on the thread.

This is a treaty from 1996. It trumps any verbal comments, the meaning and context of which can be debated over and over again.

This laid out the formal framework for NATO-Russia relationships post USSR.

Nowhere does it prohibit or restrict countries from joining NATO or what is now CSTO.

In fact, it permits European countries to make their own security arrangements i.e. they can choose whether to have relationships with NATO or CSTO.

Can you ask the pro-Russian anti-Western websites where you are getting your pro-Russian propaganda from why they don't want to talk about this treaty?

Economics101 · 26-07-2023 9:07am

No doubt this will be used by Kremlin propagandists to depict Russians as victims. I would regard it as another manifestation of our excessive compensation culture.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/russian-teen-who-had-summer-camp-place-cancelled-due-to-invasion-of-ukraine-gets-1500-for-racial-discrimination/a820199589.html

Podge_irl · 26-07-2023 9:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896955#Comment_120896955

Ultimately, so what?

Russia is not the Soviet Union anyway, but regardless what difference does it make? The war has nothing whatsoever to do with NATO, as is abundantly clear from the fact that Russia invaded a country that was nowhere close to joining and has completely ignored the countries bordering it that actually did announce their intention to join and who subsequently did so. It's just another in a long line of bullshit spewed out by Russia to cover for their actual chauvinism and imperialism.