single sex vs mixed schools

reekieóg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132011#Comment_122132011

Rathdown in Glenageary did, but it was very recent. CBC Monkstown's junior school went mixed and seems to be doing alright.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122137293#Comment_122137293

Indeed - the UL study found that pupils (especially girls) from single-sex schools outperformed co-ed pupils and this remained true even when the researchers allowed for "economic, social and cultural status (ESCS)". But, by diligent use of a plethora of other statistical "controls", including dummies, they managed to claim "no significant differences".

One thing we can certainly agree - as the UL researchers put it

To our knowledge, no studies have found that single-sex schools hinder students or that mixed-sex schools have positive academic outcomes

That doesn't stop the campaign to homogenise our schools and eliminate choice. Only in that way can the Department overcome the great problem which is that some schools outperform others and parents know it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/03/18/many-secondary-schools-oversubscribed-with-three-out-of-four-parents-unable-to-secure-places/

The socioeconomic status of the parents might assist the schools, especially those parents who greatly value education. The Department's underlying aim is to make Article 42 of Bunreacht na hÉireann a dead letter even if the people of Ireland have just rejected an attempt to re-invent the "Family".

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article42

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132011#Comment_122132011

The question of success is difficult.

Why did the school go mixed? Typically it's due to falling numbers, which means lower resources allocated, less subjects offered, maybe reputation suffers, I worked in one deis school where this is happening in Dublin, previously it had an excellent reputation with manny going to third level and the odd few doing medicine and law (so points achieved were high). For whatever reason the demographic changed so deis funding stopped. Now , speaking to further colleagues, they are down to 2/3 the numbers (and still falling) , reputation has suffered and any of the 'more aspirational' students are going elsewhere. Is this all because of being single sex? No.

If they amalgamated (there's another opposite sexed school beside them) id imagine the resources would flow back in and maybe reputation improves etc. Does this mean having girls and boys together will create better results? Maybe, but not by virtue of them being girls and boys, but I'd argue by virtue of..... Money.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122139755#Comment_122139755

Sorry to hear that a DEIS school which was thriving is now struggling and could face a vicious cycle of declining numbers. It may be pure demographics - suburban schools in Dublin often go from "bursting at the seams" to under-subscribed simply because the local housing estates (all built around the same time) went from packed with kids to empty nests. Call it "Irish urban planning".

In that situation, it may be perfectly sensible for adjacent single-sex schools to merge into a viable co-ed school. With good management, it could turn the schools around.

My objection is to the campaign to abolish single-sex schools for ideological reasons without any democratic mandate and with doctored research to explain away the academic benefits of single-sex education (especially for girls).

It is notable that this is the most read story on the Irish Times website for the past few days. Irish people are learning that our schooling is no longer "world-class". The kids in Singapore would laugh at the maths for our Junior Cert.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/05/13/i-visited-singapore-to-see-why-it-is-ranked-as-the-top-education-system-in-the-world-heres-what-i-learned/ There are many, many reasons why our schools can't compete with Singapore where some of the best-performing schools are single-sex and no one tries to disguise the fact.

Of course I don't say we should model ourselves on Singapore. But we should be honest with ourselves.

https://fass.nus.edu.sg/ecs/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2020/11/single-st-16mar-p34.pdf

Hotblack Desiato

There is no such campaign. The government is not encouraging never mind forcing single-sex schools to go co-educational.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122103408#Comment_122103408

Yeah thats a really interesting point - its not just that single sex schools are single sex - its that they havent moved on from that notion of what a boy should study or what a girl should study.

There is absolutely no logical reason why girls should all do home ec and not do woodwork, and boys vice versa. If anything, society would benefit from this being reversed.

However thats how the schools have been set up 50 years ago.

And to be fair, and as you know, schools have a list of priorities in terms of what they do with their resources and in particularly how the management of the school can spend their time - and getting girls to do woodwork is fairly far down that list of priorities.

Co-ed schools tend to be newer and therefore not tied down by 'what we've always done' whether that be arcane uniforms or arcane subject choices. Thats nothing to do ostensibly with them being mixed vs single.

In particular - STEM is the major driver of jobs growth in Ireland - and girls are hugely underrepresented in that area; and really for me that starts and ends with the schools and what they are exposed to in schools.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122140766#Comment_122140766

We established early on in this thread that the Department has rigorously enforced for many decades its secret policy of refusing permission for any new single-sex schools (Aodhán O Ríordán left the cat out of the bag). If it still won't own up to this long-established policy, it is never going to admit that it "encourages" schools to go co-ed.

If the Department is "not encouraging" single-sex schools to go co-ed, it is having remarkable results for zero effort (in contrast to the zero results for massive efforts which we see so often).

In reality, the Department says it “looks favourably” on requests for schools to change from single sex to co-educational. You may believe it was only "in recognition of this trend" that Minister Norma Foley visited a school in Dublin that had just gone co-ed. And every single-sex that goes co-ed is greeted with applause by the media.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/the-new-normal-number-of-schools-going-co-ed-has-shot-up-since-2020/a1582644403.html

I can well believe that there is parental pressure on schools to go co-ed. But no one in the Department (or the media) will ever point out to these parents that there is a nearby co-ed school, if that is their preference.

LastApacheInjun

I think this study asked the wrong type of question.

What they should have done was surveyed the mental health of students in single sex schools vs the mental health of students in coed schools, and then followed up again in five years. And then also reviewed academic qualifications between the two types of schools - both at leaving cert and again in five years.

I realise anecdotal is the worst kind of evidence, but I know of three suicides in single sex female schools in the past ten years in south Dublin. These were very high profile schools. I don't know whether there were any female suicides in the co-ed schools, perhaps there were. But there's a lot less of those schools, which I get on to below. So I don't think it's a given that girls are generally happier in single sex schools, though of course you are correct that the UL study should have shown a gender breakdown.

Ultimately, I don't expect that there is any real difference when you follow up in five years between the mental health or success between the two types of education. But it would be nice to know that for sure.

Caquas - just to pull you back to something you mentioned earlier in the thread. In the Wikipedia article you linked to, only four of the 18 secondary schools listed in the Dun Laoghaire Rathdown area are co-ed. It gets worse when you look at the number of schools on the remainder of the south side - out of 27 schools only six are coed. Of those six coed schools only one (Kylemore) is non fee paying. Of the five mixed private schools four are protestant and one is jewish. So you are not well served with choice on the south side.

I see that there are a lot more secondary schools in the Dublin South region (which is actually Dublin West). 30 secondary schools of which about half are community schools which tend to be mixed. So you are well served with choice in west Dublin.

So if you live on the south side of Dublin, your choice of co-ed schools is extremely limited. I think that is why there is some push to change a few of the single sex schools to co-ed. And it does tend to be the boys schools that make this choice because there are simply more of them. Of the 21 single sex secondary schools in the DLR region, 14 are boys schools.

LastApacheInjun

Just to confirm, I don't think single sex schools should be phased out. I think parents should have choice, and if sending their child to a single sex school is a priority for them then that choice should be there. My own feeling is there is lots of other educational concerns that parents are considering when talking about a choice of school, and whether the school is coed or single sex actually comes quite far down the list.

I personally would prefer to send my daughters to a coed school. But if a single sex school in the area offered a wider curriculum, or had better facilities, or if I got a better vibe off the principal, or if they supported children with different needs better than the coed school, then I'd go for the single sex school in a heartbeat.

Dickie10

out of interest what type of male students do you think would be attracted to a Loreto all girls school if it went co ed, and didnt have metal work, construction or engineering? id guess very academic male students who might not be comfortable in the current community school or all boys school. what im saying is we could just be moving fom one divide to another, male v female to middle class academic vs working class less academic/discipline problems. whatever chances of socio economic class mixing is happening now, if the single sex schools went mixed the groups would be like oil and water and rarely mix. i know that if my local all girls school went mixed tomorrow there would be a huge surge of academic boys from middle class backgrounds leaving the mixed community school that wouldnt be high up the league table , to go the all girls school. so all you are left with then is a very acdemic mixed school and another school in the town which is not as acadmic and with discipline problems, theses schools then become a self fulfilling prophecy.

Teachers are all fighting to be recruited by the academic school while the non acadmic school cant get teachers or else has a very high turnover of teachers.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122141928#Comment_122141928

So you have no evidence then.

Hotblack Desiato

So you are well served with choice in west Dublin.

You can't add up numbers of schools over a very wide area and say that every area within that is well served. The new suburbs have the lion's share of co-ed and non-RC schools.

Caquas

when I get

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150269#Comment_122150269

<mod> attack the post, not the poster, thanks. Please read the charter. </mod>

Hotblack Desiato

You are putting forward what amounts to a conspiracy theory, if you have any evidence let's hear it.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122148498#Comment_122148498

West Dublin the catchment requirement is still pretty strict, so I wouldn't necessarily say there's that much choice

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122148527#Comment_122148527

I can appreciate a department policy to close single sex schools with falling numbers, especially if amalgamation with a neighbouring opposite sex provides for more resources and subjects etc.

What I don't appreciate however is the polarisation and promotion of mixed is better than single sex because it's sexist to say otherwise. I've a kid in a single sex school and they're more than happy there, yes there's one or two subjects not on offer maybe compared to opposite sex or mixed. But I don't think it's held them back in any way.

Really, this subject argument isn't a hill of beans, after Irish, English , Maths, Language, Science, there's only 2 more subjects to choose from... 2 out of a possible 8 isn't that much different to 2 out of an ever so slightly different 8 , or potentially 2 out of 9 in a mixed school (if we are to believe that students get their subject choice + from a larger range).

Hotblack Desiato

But you're talking about JC (Science is the giveaway) - how about physics or chemistry which many girls' schools don't offer? never mind engineering, construction drawing etc.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150796#Comment_122150796

I'm not sure if you are talking about leaving or junior there but either way it's not a helpful or particularly accurate statement. JC is 9 or 10 subjects in most schools. Some courses no longer require a language for matriculation and not having the option or chemistry or physics or HL maths literally locks you out of CAO options.

For students being able to have one or two option subjects they really enjoy can often be the difference in mental health. I teach one of the big three and a niche option at LC. No way to compare, kids skipping into the option class, can't get rid of them, wanting extra work, get some out of bed earlier, taking that option off a student shouldn't be treated so lightly.

Another important factor I would see is monitoring relationship development. When the kids start seeing each other or each others friends it can open up the option to have conversations about what relationships look like, some students don't have that at home or have an ingrained idea of what's exceptable that might be confused. Mixing in a somewhat supervised way helps nativagate this. For both sexes this is really positive. Better than meeting people from apps in dangerous situations.

Treppen

Yes I'm talking about leaving cert.

And generally I would be advising any of my kids to try a foreign language, seeing as how they won't be able to afford here with a good quality of life. So foreign language is a must, I know they can travel to an English speaking country or whatever but learning mfl is a good skill. I don't think I'm alone there.

Don't know what you're implying about not having Chemistry or physics or higher maths? The school they attend has both, plus applied maths , plus computer science, plus ag science, plus higher maths (shock horror)! So things aren't always as the stereotype presents. There's more stem than you can shake a meter stick at.

I do wonder , maybe the world needs more arts subjects to .

The school is oversubscribed so not presenting option choices isn't really a problem. So 99% get out of bed etc.

So what I think you are speaking to, is a school where subject choices are very limited by virtue of small numbers...not by virtue of being single sex.

In terms of mixing with other genders, this is fine outside school , in fact I'd caution her about limiting to school friends as 'friends for life'.

Mixing in a somewhat supervised way helps nativagate this. For both sexes this is really positive. Better than meeting people from apps in dangerous situations.

Eh? I've taught in a mixed school and it wasn't really even 'somewhat supervised'... And many students from mixed schools meet people in very very dangerous situations online! There seems to be this notion that mixed schools are better as a prevention of gender based crimes. Belfast Trial with Paddy Jackson comes to mind. Did their mixed-school experience make them proper gentlemen?

Caquas

This discussion exposes a political vacuum at the heart of our educational system following the collapse of the Catholic Church. We will have local elections in three weeks time and not a single candidate will have anything worthwhile to say on this topic which affects every community in Ireland. Most political parties have no educational philosophy worthy of the name.

Article 42 of the Constitution embodies the outcome of the bitter struggles over education along familiar religious (Catholic/Protestant) and political (unionist/nationalist) lines. Parents have "the right and duty to provide, according to their means", for the "religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children". The role of the State is subsidiary to the family and it is to "provide for free primary education" and, in addition, the State "shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative".

In reality, this meant the Churches ran the schools with funding from the State which set the curriculum. The system was authoritarian and often brutal and soul-destroying but it provided basic education to all classes with tiny amounts of State funding. This system is now wholly anachronistic because the Churches lack both the moral authority and the human resources to run the schools which cater mainly for children whose parents do not adhere to the schools' religious ethos.

Efforts to find new patrons for Catholic schools have largely failed. There are just six recognised school Management Bodies. In effect, Educate Together has a near-monopoly of new schools except for the Gaelscoileanna (a major social phenomenon that is largely ignored by the media).

Single-sex schools predominated because of the Catholic Church but more recently parents are demanding co-ed, whether for convenience or from a belief that this would benefit their children. No one is able to provide leadership to guide the school in this choice, least of all those vested with the legal authority i.e. the local Bishop. The Department is running a secret policy with or without the consent of the Minister. Firstly (as confirmed by the Labour Party) it has consistently refused permission for any new single-sex schools and secondly it encourages existing schools to go co-ed.

Don't imagine the science will provide guidance even though all test results in numerous international studies show a clear academic benefit to single-sex schools, especially for girls, but then the social scientists start earning their doctorates by proving that this data means nothing, allowing the media to proclaim "no benefit for single-sex". At least one point is generally agreed - there is no academic disadvantage to single-sex schooling, but that point will never be made in the media.

There has never been any effort to amend Article 42 although it has been the focus of major Supreme Court decisions. We have ended up with a phoney situation where the schools are controlled by the Department of Education (and its spin-off where the boy Taoiseach bided his time) and are consistently dis-improving academically. Ask any long-serving academic. This disguised process will slowly but surely eliminate a one distinctive feature of our educational system and eventually reduce it to the level of other failing public education systems e.g. UK and US.

Treppen

Im not sure what you mean by increasingly "parents are demanding co-ed"... Unless there's stats.

There's a big difference between demanding enrollment into schools which happen to be co-ed, and demanding enrollment into schools because they are co-ed.

From my reckoning all the newer shiny co-ed schools are in high demand by virtue of a growing population in that area, and economies of scale. They could well be oversubscribed because of resources pumped in, smaller classes, more choice... not because there's possibly another single sex school in the area which they don't like.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122156296#Comment_122156296

Here's what the Department claims about single-sex schools switching to co-ed.

The growing trend is often due to parental demand for their children to attend the same primary or secondary school, 

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/01/22/number-of-schools-switching-from-single-sex-to-co-ed-increases-significantly/

Commenting on his schools' switch to co-ed, the Principal of a Rathdown school said:

“I have worked in single sex schools, including Rathdown before it was mixed, and their community were perfectly happy with that. I would advocate for choice and what the school community and parents want is what they should be able to do,” Mr Moore added.

He sounds hopelessly confused. Why did they change if the school community were perfectly happy? Does he think that the switch to co-ed is supporting "choice" when it obviously means the opposite - a one-way street which eliminates the option of single-sex schooling.

One thing is certain - no parent will respond to a school survey by admitting that their own convenience is their primary concern. We could eliminate that problem with a "no sibling" rule for the first six years after a school switches to co-ed😉 That would also encourage the diversity which the Department prizes so highly. Of course such a rule will never happen! This is not about diversity and the Department needs the parents' support.

Lack of parental support is the main obstacle to the Government's commitment on change of school patronage. 90% of our primary schools have Catholic patronage which is simply unsustainable when a large majority of parents do not share Catholic values. We have a system in limbo where the ethos in most schools is no longer aligned with its patron and there is minimal public debate. The Department is filling the vacuum with unannounced policies including a drive to change the character of some of our most successful schools.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/many-parents-reluctant-to-change-patronage-of-school-survey-finds-1.4784523

lumphammer2

They should be mixed …. people make friends in primary school and then go to secondary school …. and groups of friends get broken up because of this gender segregation …. school gender segregation has its roots in the mindset that brings us the likes of the Taliban and ISIS who take it to the more extreme …. I know people whose happy primary school lives were ruined when they went to secondary school …. they missed their friends and the 'balance' provided by a mix of girls with boys ….

In general all boys schools are often cesspits of bullying and at times abuse …. boys bully other boys and perverted teachers are attracted to join the staff of such schools …. all one needs to mention to people of a certain age are 2 words …. Christian Brothers !! ….

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152734#Comment_122152734

So… your kids are OK but not all single-sex schools are OK.

I'm alright Jack.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122152764#Comment_122152764

"tiny amounts of state funding"

This is nonsense. The state has fully funded primary education since the 19th century, it's the reason the term "national school" exists.

"boy taoiseach" and you expect your comments to be taken seriously? 🙄

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122156484#Comment_122156484

This post is just radio rental. There is no rational argument against co-education but there is some amount of spittle-flecked nonsense.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159167#Comment_122159167

Where I live the Taliban control the primary schools also.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159183#Comment_122159183

It's called projection. Look in the mirror.

I love when I hit a nerve 😎

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159186#Comment_122159186

What a despicable comment!

The Taliban are terrorising girls who are seeking education but you are so filled with bile and hate that you think the Taliban are a version of the Catholic Church in Ireland!

What an insult to generations of Irish women and especially to all the Irish nuns who provided education around the world to girls, including the poorest of the poor.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159173#Comment_122159173

What I'm saying is that it's not as polarised as single sex bad... Mixed good, purely on gender grounds.

Plenty of very good single sex schools , despite what you may wish to be. Plenty of very bad mixed schools too.

But as can be seen above, you're not willing to debate any points people take the time to make. Instead it's throwaway low effort lazy comebacks in an attempt to derail and anger.

Blocked