single sex vs mixed schools

Dickie10

Did anyone hear the discussion last week on Newstalk morning show on the merits of mixed vs single sex and vice versa? anyone any thoughts on this on your experiences ?

Treppen

I'll preface this by saying that parents will typically argue for whatever school system they went through.

So if you went through mixed setting ,the chances are that you'll think that's the way forward. Same with school uniform debate.

In any event, the Department of Education aren't building any new schools that are single sex anymore so that's that.

Furthermore there's a few single sex that have amalgamated into mixed schools.

Really though nothing is going to be proactively done, the fee-charging schools have such a tradition of keeping tradition that it won't change.

It's a silly season debate which Newstalk are wheeling weekly out to get people to text in and cough up money.

Next week it'll be school uniforms.

Then heavy school bags.

Then reform of the leaving cert.

Then public sector pay rises.

Then "teachers should be teaching X in schools".

Then why we should abolish Irish.

Rinse and repeat "let us know what YOUUUU think, text us now on 53106"..

.

.

.

.

.

Texts cost 30c

gaiscioch

Single-sex schools seem deeply anachronistic in the modern world, and Ireland is an outlier in the EU. I fully support Aodhán Ó Ríordáin's Bill to end state funding in the next 15 years: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/state-funded-schools-would-have-to-become-mixed-gender-within-15-years-under-proposed-law-1.4802988

In a world where men and women are working in the same places, doing similar jobs and generally just workers from whom productivity needs to be extracted, it makes no sense separating them by a gender system which was built for a very different world where the workplace reflected the segregation by gender that the schools did. I think Emile Durkheim wrote a lot about how schools should reflect society, and in particular should be a place for socialisation, for "imprinting" shared social values in children. What does segregating schools by gender say?

When teaching the SPHE course some years ago we talked a lot about that Belfast rugby trial and the WhatsApp messages. That sort of demeaning talk doesn't arise from a cultural vacuum. I'm not sure that students should be socialised in a school world where the opposite gender is demonised/romanticised/otherised simply because they are 'alien'/less familiar. Schools should be reflecting the real world more and maybe there would be fewer marriages/divorces if people had a more realistic understanding of gender differences (which, in an age of "equality" are rarely given due attention). I cannot see a single reason for maintaining our current "separate but equal" school system segregated by gender. Men and women need to understand each other more, to accept each other's difference rather than merely to "tolerate" those differences. A school system has a place in this socialisation, just as it has had a place in keeping walls up between genders.

Lastly, it is commonly claimed in this argument that girls do better in all-girls' schools. However, a large body of evidence disputes this and points out that for historic reasons all-girls' schools tend to be situated in more affluent areas where parents naturally put more value on education. This socio-economic background is far more important than gender (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/the-single-sex-debate-should-girls-be-allowed-in-a-boys-zone-1.1255364). It would be interesting to see the academic results from one of the new co-educational schools like Sandford Park or St Andrews and compare it with Muckross or Blackrock single-sex schools respectively adjacent to them/in the same socio-economic area. Moreover, there is little dispute that the social and emotional benefits of coeducational schools in terms of preparing students for the real world are far superior for both genders (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/the-problem-with-all-girls-schools-1.3399028).

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118640244#Comment_118640244

Please stop the conflation of single sex schools with the promotion of misogyny (or misandry!). These throw away comments are lazy and uniformed.

"When teaching the SPHE course some years ago we talked a lot about that Belfast rugby trial and the WhatsApp messages. That sort of demeaning talk doesn't arise from a cultural vacuum. "

You do realise the accused went to mixed schools??

Other recent cases of attacks on female students by male students in the same school too.

Dickie10

I find that rural towns where a CBS and Vocational school have mixed have become toxic enough mixtures, theres usually an all girls school in these towns and they really show them up results wise and PR wise. I think the mix of boys to girls in some of these can 80-20 i think thats a very tough environment for girls. I think all schools should be made to try and get no more than 60-40 balance and strive to keep it 50-50 as best they can, even if it means lower school numbers. Having said that I have taught in 3 schools, 2 all girls and 1 mixed say 60-40 in boys favour. all lovely schools in their own right, but from a teaching view i would have all girls everyday. The topic comes up an odd time in staff room and vast majority of staff admit they wouldnt be able to teach boys after a few years of all girls, even though we have some raw enough charachters. I suppose if you were an affluent area and could pick and choose your students both male and female it would be ideal from a teaching view.

Caquas

The IT reports on research which shows that students in single-sex schools perform substantially better at reading, maths and science.

Of course, the researchers then tortured the data until it yielded the preferred results. It’s fair enough to make allowances for the students’ socio-economic backgrounds and teacher-pupil ratios but the researchers piled on other subjective “control variables” in order to reduce the gap to a level that allowed them to say there is “limited evidence around the relationship between attending a single-sex school and academic performance.” They are not embarrassed to turn that into these headlines

https://www.thejournal.ie/no-academic-advantage-attending-single-sex-schools-ireland-research-6001350-Feb2023/

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2023/02/22/single-sex-schools-provide-no-academic-advantage-study/

So many social science studies conclude that there is “no evidence to support [insert a belief that used to be common sense]”. OK, but were they really looking for that evidence?

I suspect that teenage boys benefit by being in class with girls because girls tend to be more studious at that age. Girls may suffer academically by sharing a class with a bunch of rowdy lads. Who knows what the social effects may be?

am_zarathustra

Controlling for socioeconomic background is not forcing stats, it's taking into account the single largest driver of success in education into account. Not doing that would be bad statistics. Cherry picking single sex schools in afluent areas and comparing them to mixed DEIS schools would obviously be a completely inappropriate way of measuring the effect of mixed versus single sex.

Great to see some statistical traction to the call for more mixed schools. I'd struggle to teach in a single sex school now, seems mad to separate kids by gender to teach them physics

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120280598#Comment_120280598

As I made clear,

It’s fair enough to make allowances for the students’ socio-economic backgrounds and teacher-pupil ratios

My objection is to the mysterious other factors which make the differences in school performance disappear. In genuine research, the raw data would be presented and then relevant factors would be applied with clear explanations for each.

Instead, the process is reversed and we get straight to - Hey, Presto! - the “right” answer. Maybe the fault lies with the journalists but the researchers were more than willing to give them the story they wanted. Give us the raw data and then bring on your “controls”.

Incidentally, I am not a fan of single sex schools and, as I said, I think boys will benefit from mixed classes. I just can’t stomach this kind of “research” where the data is made to fit the researchers’ goal. (I should write a SF novel about a planet, far far away, where the inhabitants welcomed rigorous scientific research even when it disproved their favoured social theories.)

The ESRI have been running a huge longitudinal study of Growing Up in Ireland. A massive research effort which has yielded almost nothing of practical value, just lots of “we found no evidence for ….” . They are master of controlling their data!

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120281421#Comment_120281421

Isn't this study concerned with measuring ability to real world challenges/aptitudes up to age of 15 only as its based on pisa stats....but it could be presented in a misleading fashion that makes an audience think it relates to academic outcomes....thought I heard a point like that mentioned as it was discussed a while back

Not that academic outcomes should necessarily be the be all and end all but its interesting people aren't dissuaded in coming to that conclusion.....

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282468#Comment_120282468

Proves the point, I hadn't realised it was based on PISA performance just be reading the thread here. You'd be lead to believe that it was based on academic, JC LC performance . I'm reluctant to even read the article though as newspapers rarely give raw data or balanced points when it comes to Irish Education, they go for the sensation to get people talking.

Caquas

Predictably, the Labour Party uses this research to call for a ban on single-sex schools.

Their spokesperson Aodhán Ó Riordán says no new single-sex schools have been permitted since 1998. Who knew? Who voted for that? Is that Constitutional? Now he wants to ban the existing single-sex schools. The oresenter paved the way for him by her introduction which quoted the dodgy “no academic benefit” research finding.

The Principal of Alexandra College strongly defended single-sex schools (despite a SNAFU with her connection to the studio - you might suspect sabotage but, hey, this is RTÉ. Even the podcast title (below) is botched 🤪). She says the media “skewed” the debate about the latest research. That’s euphemistic but it’s the point I’m making.

Ultimately, this is about parental choice but Aodhán says “"Choice is not as important as equality” . In other words, his equality agenda overrides parents’ choices regarding their children’s education. Are there any rights Labour would not sacrifice to their notion of “equality”?

https://www.rte.ie/radio/podcasts/22216553-is-it-time-to-ban-single-sex-schools/

Aodhán O Riordán

am_zarathustra

In fairness, there is an open process to decide the patronage of any new school. Based primarily on local interest, basically they are usually mixed bacuse a single sex option is already available and the motivated parents tend to be the ones who want a change. It's not a nerfarious plan and extremely easy to find the details of it as opposed to just going with a one liner and asking "who voted for it" (the parents by the way, that's who)

The questions in the PISA are very similar to the new junior cycle, possibly intentionally. The science ones could be directly from it, and the forms you fill out as a school are very detailed so the data would be readily compared. I've never seen the dept come looking for the info PISA asks, even though you'd imagine it would be useful. Having been involved it's a pretty detailed process, not saying I don't have some issues.....but all stats has issues.

The study itself has some interesting parts, the gender gap was more interesting to me, that looks a strong result. But the number of variables in general is hard to take into account, though, in fairness, its one of the better studies I've seen, not that the standard is that high in general. At least they attempted to control for confounding variable, though apparently we could be doing a better job of teaching the concept in schools based on some of the media around this.

Paper is in an open source journal, link below.

https://bera-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/berj.3841

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120285188#Comment_120285188

Thanks for the link. As I suspected, the paper tortures the data to explain away the higher scores achieved by single-sex schools. If journalists were doing their job - questioning the claims - they would readily see that the paper does not support the headlines that "single-sex schools are no better academically".

Here is the first finding in the research paper (which no one in the Irish media will report).

We find significant raw gaps in reading, science and mathematics scores between females in single-sex and mixed-sex schools and in mathematics scores for males across the same school types.

So, girls in single-sex schools do better in all areas tested (reading, science and maths) than girls in mixed-sex schools and [no, no, a thousand times no!] boys do better than girls at maths regardless of school type.

Table 3 has the actual results ('raw data'). Here are the girls's results, single-sex in column 2, mixed-sex in column 3.

So how do they get from these actual results to a claim that

 on average, this difference is not significant for any of the academic outcomes for either males or females across the school types.

By the usual method-

Controlling for a rich set of individual, parental and school-level factors

"rich set" = as many factors as needed to eliminate the uncomfortable differences. In addition to socio-economic status, selective admissions and student-teacher ratios (which I accept as relevant to accounting for the results), the researchers tweaked the numbers by including factors such as School size, Staff shortage, Quality of teaching material, Rural location, Parental engagement, Disadvantaged students, Native students.

Here is Jen O'Connell in today's IT channelling her inner teenager against single-sex schools. Mostly a personal anecdote about a priest who had the temerity to suggest to her father that prayer might help. There's no basis for her claim that "Malta and the Arab world" are the only other places "wedded to the single-sex model". If she had read the paper, she would have seen that Korea, Australia and NZ also have substantial numbers of single-sex schools.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/02/25/jennifer-oconnell-single-sex-schooling-is-a-peculiarly-irish-mash-up-of-catholicism-and-post-colonialism/?

Jen ends with the following sentence with which I wholly agree, except of course that she doesn't recognise bad science when it is in her favour and she assumes only religious troglodytes could support single-sex education.

Parents are entitled to choice when it comes to the education of their children. But if they are making decisions based on cherry-picked or misunderstood arguments, bad science, trumped up fears or nostalgia for a time when schools serve as Petri dishes for religious inculcation, then that rationale needs to be challenged.

And who today longs for a time "when schools serve as Petri dishes for [ideological] inculcation"?

Treppen

I wonder how this would all stack up when it cuts to the chase. i.e. LC CAO Points

am_zarathustra

Comtrolling for confounding variables is good science, it is not torturing data. If they didn't include the varibales we know are drivers of success then I wouldn't be interested in the results as they may as well have been graphs drawn in crayon. I'd guess your background in not in an analytical science.

I'd image CAO points would require a few more confounding variables to be added, I know classes in middle class areas with nearly every higher level student getting grinds, and schools where no one would be. The socioeconomic varible would account for more of your variance then I'd imagine. I think realistically none of us are saying that mixed or not mixed has anywhere close to the effect on a students achievement in academics than parent's level of education and socioeconomic class. I can't see how what school I went to would have made very much difference.

From my own experience I would struggle to go back to a single sex school, they seem stranger the longer I'm away from them. I had a very good schooling experience myself in a single sex school but the mixed model does take the mystery out of things a bit and that's no harm.

Dickie10

the mixed school needs a really good management and tight reign to do as well as an all girls school. all girls schools dominate the league tables in most counties there top or even top 2-3 places. some all girls schools would detriorate rapidly from my experience if boys were admitted. they have a very light touch with regard to some aspects of running the school because there is very rarely any incidents. my advice to any all girls school thinking of going mixed would be just to let in boys in 5th year or TY FOR A FEW years and see how it goes

Dickie10

i mean of course they come in 5th year and finsh thier LC there. tbh i think if schools were al mixed you would just have the academic girls and boys schools becoming even more academic and being like grammer schools in UK. all good male students from driven middle class families would be looking to get into the local loreto and the less academic girls would end up in community school in the same town, the academic school could pick and choose via entrance exam or such like. you would probabaly have the academic school turning away huge amounts of teaching applications while the community school would be getting hard to get teachers

Caquas

An impressive riposte to Jennifer O’Connell in todays IT

It is upsetting to read how depriving families of options is something to be celebrated

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/2023/02/27/single-sex-schools-and-parental-choice/

gaiscioch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293620#Comment_120293620

Instructively, that letter writer does not produce the evidence in support of single-sex schools upon which Jennifer OConnell asked the debate to be based. Schools have always been established to reflect and shape society. They are a place where values and ideologies have always been inculcated. In a world where practically all men and women work with many, many members of the opposite sex - something vastly different to the reality in society when single-sex schools were established in the 19th century - the existence of single-sex schools in supposedly modern Ireland in 2023 is an anachronism. To put it mildly.

Parents can choose to send kids to whatever schools they wish, but in 2023 the Irish State should not be financing the current "separate but equal" single-sex school system which, in this country, is a product of the values and prejudices of 19th-century English puritanism meshing with 19th-century Roman Catholicism.

We should have a school system which includes everybody, not "otherises" them by virtue of their different sex. In a world where "inclusivity" is the clarion call of our so-called social liberals, these single-sex schools and their inherent exclusivity are a relic that has no place in modern Ireland. Boys and girls should be working together from an early age, understanding each other and each other's differences - and most certainly not operating in the Irish State-funded aparthed-style education system of single-sex schools. Are we, to use that letter-writer's words, "depriving parents of options" if parents can't send their kids to schools which only, eh, have kids with, eh, the same skin colour as their child? That should do wonders for understanding between blacks and whites when the other crowd is getting educated way over there somewhere! Knock the walls down by educating boys and girls together. The same nonsense is going on in Northern Ireland, and here, educating kids by religion. Doing wonders - not - for understanding when everybody around you is the same and "the other" are in a different school system.

And what, pray tell, is the worst that can happen if boys and girls are - shock, horror - educated together? Ireland is an outlier in the developed world with these single-sex schools. Well done to Jennifer O'Connell on calling them out for what they are, but it's beyond belief that there are troglodytes trying to defend these 19th-century State-financed anachronisms in 2023.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120292464#Comment_120292464

I'm not sure what you are basing this on. Both single sex schools in the area I teach in would have significantly worse behaviour, especially regarding actual violence, than our mixed school. Huge issues with gang stuff from both girls and guys, mixed school is grand. Socioeconomic background again will indicate this far more than the gender mix or lack thereof.

Bad management makes anything bad, not just schools. The biggest effects on any kids are their parents and home stability and expectations. You can occasionally effect change outside of this when it's missing in schools but it will be the largest statistical driver. Even simple metrics like number of words by the time they enter primary have lifelong effects.

I don't know why everyone is even worried about this to be honest. The apetite is for mixed and all the new patronages show it, if/when it isn't then maybe it's worth a more in depth look. Either way if your kids is clever, diligent and capable they will likely do ok regardless of whether they sit beside Mary or John.

The fact schools are so much along socioeconomic lines in Dublin, thus subtly stratifying society should be more of a concern.

Count Dracula

Same sex schooling is archaic hogwash that extols the last bastion of a conservative dysfunctional behemoth whose relevancy has been misconstrued , misaligned and ill conceived for almost a 100 years.

Apart from the Capuchin brothers, they care I reckon, the rest really don't the more you check them out, with exceptio?.

Claw Hammer

Single sex? There was no sex in school in my day!

tjhook

I can completely understand a parent deciding that a mixed school is better for their children. There are plenty of valid reasons to make that choice.

But why not extend that courtesy to other parents to make their own decisions for their children? Why ban the choice either directly, or indirectly by making it impossible to find a single-sex school?

In the past there were busybodies trying to impose their values and morality on others. They're still there. What's changed is the set of diktats they're trying to impose.

am_zarathustra

No one is dictating anything. Patronage of new schools is quite literally a result of parental or future parental input. The process is online and done through an independent body. Given, historically most schools were single sex the apetite is for mixed.....that and the change of attitude to mixed schooling. Both types of schooling are generally available in an area, no one is shutting down single sex schools, some merge or change admissions but this is all done in consultation with all the stakeholders.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120299743#Comment_120299743

Au contraire, Aodhán Ó Riordán told RTÉ that the Department of Education is dictating this. It decided back in 1998 - no new single-sex schools have been permitted since 1998. So much for that independent body. Next step Labour wants to cut funding.

am_zarathustra

He very noticably said "de facto" policy.....not an actual policy. Do you have experience in the area of patronage, gave you sat on boards discussing this? Labour have tried to push state funded schools towards compulsory mixed but this is not law or anywhere near it. If a patron body wished to set up a single sex school in an area then there is no policy, circular or law prohibiting it. Have closely followed or been a part of patronage conversations for years, the strongest voices in the community tend to be from parents advocating for mixed schools. This is very noticable in the parents groups in the 4 districts currently in the process of consultation around changing patronage so any school in a area is mixed, multidenominational as that options isn't available, in large enough towns too in those cases.

Parents are generally moving towards mixed schooling, that's the choice being made. There is very little push for single sex schools. Hence the lack of new patronages. But there are lots of parents groups fighting tooth and nail to get non religious, mixed, multidenominational schools in their catchment, moreso with the new admissiona rules

I will also add it's a product of who is applying to run new schools and the provision of non religious options too at secondary and primary too but overwhelmingly people want their kids in mixed school. But no one at dept level is forcing this, and they don't have the law on their side to do so. Feel free to set up an approved patronage body to apply for single sex schools in any area, no one will stop you

Same as some of the conversations around Enoch Burke, I don't know anyone working in education who is massively bothered by it, certainly no one whose teaching I'd hold in any esteem. Same way having trans kids in a school is actually grand. Mostly schools have other things on their agendas that are more important

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120301677#Comment_120301677

Letting the cat out of the bag.

“De facto” = the Department has no legal basis for this policy. It makes no difference in practice because the Department has never sanctioned a single sex school since 1998. And it makes no difference at all if you oppose single-sex education and don’t care about the democratic process. Was this a Niamh Breathnach initiative or just a faceless bureaucrat?

“Very little push for single-sex schools”. Of course not. Why would anyone set up a Patronage Group which is doomed to fail if it is for a new single-sex school. When parents want a new school, they have many desiderata but most of all they want the new school up and running while their kids are still in education. The Department makes clear up front that they won’t be getting a single-sex school so that option is closed off. How easily this becomes “there’s no demand for single-sex schools” (even if many parents continue to demonstrate their preference for single-sex education by their choice of schools).

To repeat, I’m not advocating single-sex schools but I strongly support parental choice (and responsibility) for education. That is also the parents’ constitutional right but there is a concerted effort to remove the choice for single-sex schools and to use education for other political ends. I also have a strong aversion to bogus research which tortures the datasets to bolster one point of view. Even worse are the journalists who don’t ask elementary questions about claims they support.

am_zarathustra

One labour TD, one with a reason to make statements that make the truth look in his parties favour, is not the Department of Education......who also don't actually decide on patronage.....again it's an external agency.

De facto in this case means by fact.....the dept haven't sanctioned a single sex school since 1998...that's not up for debate but there is absolutely no evidence this has been done as a policy of the department, de facto or not. I could just as easily say the government have a de facto policy to not give me the procurement for pencils......even if I've never applied to the contract.

If you can link a policy/circular here I'll happily look but otherwise you are dependent on the hyperbole of a man known for hyperbole making an angle for himself and publicising his own preference, clearly outlined in the recent bill from his party. One which failed by the way. Nothing is real in education unless it's in a circular and there don't spare them, sometimes multiple a day.

Can you give me an example of any area in which a patron or parents group won a majority support and we're refused patronage? You are arguing about something I really don't think you know much about, and anyone who's been through the process of deciding patronage or changing patronage would tell you that. No one is stopping single sex schools......and parental voice is huge. I've seen plenty of merges and changes in patronage down to very motivated parents groups......and fair play to them.

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120302752#Comment_120302752

Blanchardstown Muslims were denied a school I believe . 6 secondary schools were up for grabs huge population of Muslims in west Dublin. Massive campaign by them . Didn't get so much as a porta cabin.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120302806#Comment_120302806

Not denied, they weren't the majority of votes, I assume you are talking about the one that went to DDETB? Eriu? Only 3rd to 6th class parents of primary's in the catchment are elegible to vote. There would be 20+ primary schools in the area, none of which would be under the IFI patronage so they'd be very hard pressed to get anywhere near a majority. Also worth noting that that patronage, IFI is under the clonskeagh mosque, the imam there wouldnt always see eye to eye with the mosque leader in D15. There would be many Islamic people in that area who wouldn't subscribe to that form of Islam and their Imam would have had very close ties with a number of schools from my experience, though from a decade ago. Money might have been poured into the campaign but parents in primary are very savvy and they are extremely organized from my experience, I've had parents quiz on reports online in fair detail.

The IFI is lucky to still have the right to patronage too, the report from the North City primary was sobering, to this day the worst report of any school in the country published. If parents googled the patron body (and they would) and learned that ten years ago they refused to teach music to primary school kids on religious grounds and had not implemented any safeguarding policies it might have given pause for thought.

Parents organisations have never had more power in education than they do now and that's as it should be. It's unhelpful to suggest that is not the case and sows divisions where there doesn't need to be any.

am_zarathustra

I can't actually find the D15 one, I glanced when it came out but, for context, this is the type of report that decides patronage. (The DOE website is not SEO optimized, so not always easy to find older stuff but I'll try and root it out.)

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/110673/fb8add55-4122-4726-a499-8c6661b8de0f.pdf#page=null

You can see the openness and detail that goes into this. A long way from the way it used to be. It's a serious process, independent of the department and very much based on parental choice.