single sex vs mixed schools

rainbowtrout

On a practical level, in a typical small town in Ireland there is typically a girls convent, a boys CBS and if the town is big enough a vocational school (usually mixed, often skewing towards more boys). Two to three small schools in the town, duplicating lots of resources (three principals, three deputy principals, often no more than 500 students between them), and not able to offer the full range of subjects in any school.

I work in a school which was an amalgamation of a scenario similar to the above. Boys had woodwork, metalwork, tech drawing, accounting, physics. In the girls school they had art, music, home ec, business, phys/chem. Other subjects like geography, history, biology available in both. When all three were amalgamated into one community college, the full range of subjects and new subjects were available to all.

I can see the logic in not wanting to establish new single sex schools... if a campaign was successful in an area for a girls school, well what's the knock on effect from that? Does the local school (maybe full to capacity, hence the campaign for a new school), get overwhelmed with applications from boys and effectively turn it into a boys school, or still be mixed but the numbers end up extremely lopsided? Or do you end up having to establish a new boys school also, if the existing school is full to capacity and boys are not going to be accommodated in the girls school. How viable is a new single sex school to provide a wide range of subjects?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120302752#Comment_120302752

Now I'm confused!

You're saying there is no policy against single-sex schools and the fact that no single-sex school has been approved since 1998 is because no one proposed to establish one. Except for the Blanchardstown Muslims. You say they were refused for other reasons i.e. they could have got a single-sex school except for ..., well, other issues.

But that is the opposite of what Aodhán Ó Riordán told RTÉ and he should know. He is the Labour Party Spokesperson on Education (and a qualified teacher, like his father.). He was interviewed specifically to discuss his party's Bill which would ban single-sex schools and the very first words out his mouth were:

"It has been Department policy since 1998 not to give recognition to any new school on a single-gender basis. So it has been Department policy for 25 years...."

And your assertion that:

He very noticably said "de facto" policy.....not an actual policy.

is simply not true.

He made this claim to support his fundamental proposition that single-sex schools were "a legacy issue" i.e. the Labour Party Bill would deal with an historical aberration by obliging the existing single-sex schools to integrate. His claim was unchallenged by the interviewer and by the other interviewee, the Principal of Alexandra College (I'm sorry you don't hold her in esteem - she seemed a very capable and sincere educator)

But you say he's wrong and a spoofer. Who will tell the Labour Party and the existing single-sex schools and the Muslim Community? Obviously, not RTÉ or the other media with their bogus "no academic benefit" headlines.

I assume it is not coincidental he says this policy was introduced in 1998, the same year in which a big, brand-new Education Act was enacted.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1998/act/51/enacted/en/print#sec8

This Act would have been the place to ban single-sex schools except, of course, there would not have been a majority in the Dáil back then (and, as you say, even now Aodhán couldn't get a majority for his Bill).

Was this a "Yes, Minister" solution - stick everything uncontroversial into a big, shiny Act but leave the tricky bits to Ministerial "discretion"? (In reality, leaving it to the civil servants who will long outlast their Ministers and who have full deniability about their policy, even when big-mouth Aodhán blows the whistle.)

You say nothing in Education is real unless it's in Circular? Ah, bless.

Please don't say the Minister has delegated her discretion under s. 8 of the Act to an "independent" board. She can receive their advice and recommendation but the buck stops with the Minister. Otherwise, the Imam would have her in the High Court before she can say "Inshallah".

am_zarathustra

I'll make this as simple as possible......show me a vote, conducted by the independent agency governing patronage, which asks 3rd to 6th class parents what they would like new a patronage to be, where a single sex school was denied after winning a majority or in fact a Muslim one at that? Labour aren't mad about religious schools either and they are still getting patronages.

Or point me specifically to a circular or law that would stop a single sex patronage applying for one. You're readings into the comments of one TD (not in government with a vested interest) are not department policy. There is absolutely nothing stopping you applying for patron status, throwing your name in the hat for the next round of schools and appealing to parents. If you win a majority and the department refuse you then you'll have proven your point but I don't think you would get a majority in any catchment. But barring this you are speculating on what would happen in this scenario and so is AOR.

And that's not what I said about the Muslim school, I said I had only glanced at the patronage report at the time and couldn't find it now but based on demographics they would not be anywhere close to a majority in that area from my own experience of education in that area and have an ideological schism anyway.

How do you think patronage is currently decided?

Blockbuster didn't go bust because there was a conspiracy not to buy videos ....but because people didn't want them. From my experience of education and the parents involved most want mixed education hence the new patronages being mixed.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303735#Comment_120303735

The logistics for a catchment would be very tricky for sure, barring an area with an already uneven distribution of single sex schools.

I do think there is real value in kids having access to a broad curriculum. We complain about few female engineers but don't discuss how many all girls schools offer LC engineering. Or Materials Technology for apprentices or male Home Ec teachers (I heard a rumour of one once!)

Dickie10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303735#Comment_120303735

Yeah my old school was a mixed Convent of Mercy about 400 students and there was also a tech with about 150-170 students naturally they amalgamated. happended around 2004. im shocked to hear their are some towns with 3 schools and only 500 between them in them, theres very little future in those to be seperate entitiies. i would imagine in big towns 15-30k population that the single sex schools will take a position of wait and see. if they are still getting deman for places then why change anything. there are lots of new mixed schools coming on stream now between Gael schools and Educate together so if there is a huge move to them at the expense of the all boys and all girls schools over the next 10 years then i could see a change but if all girls schools are still in demand and all boys then the people are voting with their feet.

I do agree with lopsided numbers usually 80:20 boys that can leave mixed schools with a distorted environment and maybe spook parents into staying with all girls schools. all schools that are mixed should be made keep within 45:55 ratio through admissions. although i think some get very hard to get the girls through the door to make this happen, again looks like parents voting with thier feet.

Treppen

There's definitely a move to mixed and amalgamation, whether it's parent-led or government enforced is besides the point as it's happening anyway..

But on the other hand I don't see the demand for Single sex in large population areas falling. So I don't think it's legitimate to say "parents want mixed schools", true, parents want mixed schools.... they want single sex too.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314742#Comment_120314742

Exactly. This is not about a majority, this is about parental choice. But it turns out that parents can have any school they want so long as it is mixed-gender.

No single-sex school has been approved since 1998 and none will be approved in the future.  

am_zarathustra is very anxious we should understand that this is not a "policy" even if it walks like a policy and quacks like a policy and the Labour Party think it's a policy and RTÉ assume it's a policy and no one else in the media seems to care whether it's a policy or not, even those in the media who were pushing gussied-up research "proving" that the actual academic advantages of single-sex school is an illusion caused by ... well, as many other factors as they could shake a stick at.

am_zarathustra says the Labour Party Bill (forcing single-sex schools to integrate) has failed. I wonder why they didn't simply propose a Bill to block new single-sex schools? At least that would be a democratic decision, not a non-policy with total deniability.

Treppen

I suppose it doesn't really make sense to need to "ban" new single sex schools anyway, although it sounds nice and woke to push for their banning... We all know labour say one thing with one side of their mouths and sip champagne with the other anyway.

For localities with shortage of places I'll bet that boys and girls are equally short places so why build 2 small single sex schools.

Especially when single sex schools are amalgamating and/or transferring to brand new grounds anyway.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314863#Comment_120314863

I think the best thing for you to do is to go through the process and try and apply for patronage for a new schools, win a majority of support from 3rd-6th class parents and then show that the department still grants patronage to another body. Otherwise this is just speculation. I find it's better to deal in facts than speculating as to why no single sex schools have been sanctioned, we may as well speculate why no new Jewish schools have been sactioned and discuss the "policy" banning jewish schools, patenetly not a reasonable arguement. Unless you can produce evidence to the contrary, and as far as any assessments I have read, this is a results of parental choice.

The new Labour bill failed, as would another one blocking it directly in the morning. And if the pendulum swings and single sex schooling became what a majority wanted I'd assume Cheist would have no issue pivoting, and they should be allowed. I wouldnt be comfortable with an outright ban. Parental choice is massively important, it really is disengenious to suggest otherwise. In the processes I've been through or observed up close the real subtleties of non versus multi denominational became a serious conversation point for parents, these decisions are not lightly taken. The process is open and, based on the assessments I've read (and I have a professional interest in this so I generally try and read them as they come out) no school has not been awarded to the majority parental choice patronage.

What is you own experience of the patrongage system that makes you so sure of your position?

@Treppen Existing schools in areas will have people loyal to them for sure, especially if they are well run. I've no issue with single sex schooling, as I said before I had a brilliant experience in my own single sex school and have worked in a few but they are good down to legacy, well run managements beget more and subsequent well run managements. I know from previous discussion here that we both have expeience of the contrary too!! I'm not sure the same appetite would be there for an unknown single sex school. I've generally found most parents just want the best school for their kid, this is often the single sex school in large market towns especially.

Treppen

To be honest, it's really an unnecessary non story for lazy journalists which just causes stress to students and parents (like the leaving cert frenzy whipped up).

It's like the school uniform debate.

1. Well I had a uniform and thought it was better.

2. Well I had no uniform and thought it was better.

Why not text in your thoughts to 53106... Texts only cost 50 cent.

Yes there's the subject debate (no engineering for girls in single sex schools). But I've known female students from single sex who've gone on to study engineering and architecture, and boys who've gone into the food industry so where there's a will and all that.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120317862#Comment_120317862

You've been wasting my time and yours by repeatedly denying the existence of a policy against single-sex schools.

The Department of Education's patronage website has an FAQ about new schools which sets out the policy in the plainest terms

14. Will this be a mixed or single-sex school?

The schools to be established will be co-educational schools.

So who's a spoofer now? Not Aodhán Ó Riordán T.D., Labour Party Education Spokesperson.

So I revert to my original question is - who decided on this policy?

Not the Oireachtas, it seems, because it is not in the Education Act.

Was this policy even announced or was it just slipped into some obscure documents? No one here knew anything about it until I questioned it.

And is there a plan to create a surreptious policy which would integrate the existing single-sex schools, now that the Labour Party's effort of legislate for this has failed?

https://patronage.education.gov.ie/patronage-faq.aspx

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309255#Comment_120309255

,As an example, currently there are three schools in Ennistymon:

Convent : 259 girls

CBS: 261 boys

Vocational: 109 boys, 104 girls

They are amalgamating this year as far as I know to form Ennistymon Community College.

Yellow_Fern

Amalgamation is terrible argument for co-ed as it is essentially a plea for larger class sizes. Co-ed is already the overwhelming majority. T.D., Labour Party Education Spokesperson, Aodhán Ó Riordán recently said that equality is more important than choice. This really sums up the co-ed push. It is about reducing choice. Making us all the same.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327189#Comment_120327189

I don't know is amalgamation an argument for it. It's probably just unsustainable to have enough teachers and subjects for just 200+ students, in 3 separate buildings with 3 separate capitation payments, 3 principals wages etc etc.

700 students in one school sounds a lot more efficient than 200 in 3 schools.

Of course the devil is in the detail as to how class sizes and resourcing transpires.

Also consider we are reaching peak population for that youth cohort, those numbers in each school above are only going to fall. If nothing was done with 3 schools they would have subjects being cut and teachers redeployed elsewhere.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329377#Comment_120329377

There isnt a lot of savings there. Especially if you build a new building. Always surprises me how the left turns into fiscal hawks when it gives them a chance to control people.

Dickie10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327029#Comment_120327029

I think this is the crux of the problem highlighted here and why there is a push back on Co-ed schools. with 370 boys and 363 girls in this new Community School is there going to be problems with bedding in all these new students that will result in a flight of girls from this new school to another all girls school in a neighbouring town, thats what began to happen in my own old school when it was amalgamated. now there is a huge middle class flight from the school to 2 big all boys schools and 3 big all girls schools. all off the back of academic perfermonance in the league tables so thechildren of families where education is valued most are now in single sex schools. it must be heartbreaking for the management to see a small country town full of students in uniforms of these schools getting off busses in a town that has its own secondary school but cant keep the students that would lift it up the rankings.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329582#Comment_120329582

Ah hang on, am_zarathustra says there is no real demand for single-sex schooling and that's why no such school has been approved since 1998. I'm sure there was a very full and open consultation in which the schools parents expressed enthusiasm for this amalgamation. Why then would parents pull their kids out of this brand-new co-ed schools and bus them to single-sex schools in another town?!

As for the academic performance - sure hasn't it been proved here by means of higher maths and graphs that there is no difference academically, once you allow for all the factors you can shake a coefficient at (lies, damned lies and headlines!)

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329457#Comment_120329457

Dunno what you mean by "the left turning into fiscal hawks", I'm all for the single sex schools! I'm in one and my kids will attend them for secondary (mostly because I want them to!).

What I would be against, is seeing a school left die on its arse with falling numbers. Not to mention 3 of them in the one town.

It's very hard to see how an old school with declining numbers will get proper funding compared to a new building with 3 times the population.

But yes it has to be done right, my old secondary was amalgamated into mixed from 3 cohorts and the principal seemed to be a political appointment or whatever with zero awareness of how to run a school, they've brand new pitches and basketball courts but the goodwill of teachers has been abused, so they stay empty :( it's more or less work to rule, with pupils going to neighbouring town or city every morning. Amalgamation had to happen though, the population was on the decline and teachers in 3 schools were facing redeployment etc.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120329582#Comment_120329582

That can happen in any school with poor management. Where I am, there were students getting buses to the next town over, 10 miles away to attend the co-ed school towards the end of the life of the previous three schools. They wanted a better run school, better facilities, more subject choice. Once the schools amalgamated, that stopped almost overnight. The students that were going to the next town over continued to do so, presumably because they were happy in that school, but other students did not follow them.

Dickie10

yeah probably the oppsoite in my local old school. just cant get to hold onto the students that would make the school real progress academically. I often wonder is there a way around this, do you always have to chase numbers as a small or any size school for that matter. could you have an entrance exam and filter through potential trouble students, do you avoid doing the open day visits to certain primary schools that your not as bothered about and target schools that you are losing students from. im not sure how to go about it but I know that until the results are seen to improve the single sex schools will still attract the students you want to get in the doors. And im not talking about all 500 plus students just students who are not trouble and come from families where education is valued even if their children are not brainboxs. i find in some schools and that local one in particular there are too amny students ruining potential and sullying the name of the school. i think they need to be cuter to find a way of not letting them over the threshold from day 1. thats a management job at the end of the day as rainbow trout rightly says.

Yellow_Fern

Secondary schools are already proportionately non Catholic to the relative population. Only about 48% are still Catholic. Only a third are single sex. The Left wants to take away all control that parents still have. Labour Education spokesman aodhán ó ríordáin recently said on RTE Drive time 'equality is more important than choice'. That is where we are at. They are coming from your kids

maude6868

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327029#Comment_120327029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120327029#Comment_120327029

Yes they are. The boys CBS is the last all boys school in Co. Clare and one of few enough left in the country now. Scoil Mhuire and Coláiste Muire in Ennis are the last two all girls schools in Clare. Coláiste Muire will become an elite school in years to come in Clare and I feel parents will be scrambling to get their girls enroled. Scoil Mhuire Ennistymon has consistently punched above its weight academically.

clytemnestra

There are other factors apart from academic results. I know girls who have left a mixed school local to me because there is a tendency for boys to dominate everything and literally shout them down all day long. The all-girls school they've gone to is a much calmer environment where they feel nurtured and appreciated and have a bit of breathing space. There's also the problem of sexual harassment which is even worse these days with the effect that exposure to porn has on teenage boys. I know Labour don't give a **** about girls but then again, their core middle-class champagne socialists will get to keep their single-sex schools I would imagine.

Treppen

..

Caquas

One thing is certain, amalgamation reduces parental choice.

The choice of school is a complex issue. Academic performance is just one of many considerations and I think social development may be the most significant factor at second-level (I don’t mean epic partying 😎) . Ultimately, it is about finding the best fit for the individual student which may be a single-sex school (especially during puberty). Parents are the best judges (when they listen to their kids).

The amalgamated school maybe more than the sum of its parts though that is far from certain but in many cases the nearest remaining alternative is in another town. Is amalgamation adding to the chaos in the school transport system?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/education/thousands-pupils-left-no-way-27843145

Dickie10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120343810#Comment_120343810

I think i can see where this might be the case, girls school i work in is indeed a very calm place, you get the vibe the moment you enter the building or the grounds. It defineitly suits some students. a nice half way house for some girls schools may be to take in a proportion say up to 20% boys in 5th year just to dip their feet. if it dosent work no harm done. does anyone have any experience of schools with a 80:20 split in favour of girls, i notice a lot of schools with 80:20 in favour of boys .

iniscealtra

Mixed and local for me. Life is mixed. Social skills, having friends of both sexes, knowing people in your own locality from all backgrounds. I went to a mixed school. Loved it. Taught in two girls schools, not a fan. Too much stress, bullying, lots of make up, seemed way more obbsessed with boys. On in a citty and one in large town. The school in large town was nicer. Other schools I’ve taught in are mixed. Students are more relaxed, comfortable, less stressed and lovely kids. All have been in villages. Have met plenty of adults who regret being in single sex schools - not having the opportunity to mix.

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120338147#Comment_120338147

Where do you think these kids should go then? The scrap heap at 12?

Dickie10

That where technical schools should have been kept .

rainbowtrout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377929#Comment_120377929

Sweet jesus, you're like something from the dark ages of education. Technical schools had a purpose, but often not the purpose intended. Certain types of schools were never intended as dumping grounds for kids no one else wanted.