single sex vs mixed schools

Hotblack Desiato

Almost all of the exclusionary, fee-charging schools in the State are single-sex.

Correlation is not causation.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094436#Comment_122094436

It is true that, despite all the media BS about “no academic advantage” , parents readily pay fees for excellent single-sex schools.

And the Department is doing everything to ensure that option is not available to those who can’t afford the fees (or prefer to spend their money elsewhere) .

reekieóg

Most fee-paying schools in South Dublin charging at the lower end of the spectrum are single-sex. Parents aren't paying "readily" for the single-sex aspect but rather that they want the exclusivity of a private school and can't afford to send their kids to the more expensive co-ed ones.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094800#Comment_122094800

I call BS.

If there is any correlation between the level of fees and whether schools are mixed or single-sex, it may be in the other direction.

Or do you think parents only send their sons to Blackrock and their daughters to Mount Anville because they lack the funds for the co-ed schools?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094618#Comment_122094618

Whooooosh yet again

If they want to pay fees (keep their kids away from plebs, SEN and all that) then pretty much their only option is a single sex, religious order run school.

That doesn't mean that single sex education, or religious order education, confers any advantage, they're just accidents of history and the perpetuation of intergenerational privilege.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122093729#Comment_122093729

Girls not having access to STEN subjects, including JC science, is hardly a "strawman argument" against single sex schools. Every child should have equal opportunities.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091330#Comment_122091330

It's fee charging school so I'd imagine the economics and viability are different to non-fee charging. And probably they wouldn't disclose as they are looking for new intake of boys but still remaining fee charging. Even a slight dip in demand can indicate a trend.

As quoted above by a principal:

"the attraction to coeducation could be more about school survival, rather than any other factor."

St Patrick's co-ed school (beside st Patrick's cathedral) had to go public because of falling numbers and rising costs. The principal said the only way to stay viable was to increase numbers within the free system.

So to my mind both of those schools faced the exact same issue and ascribing gender preference as a cause mightn't be correct. Maybe parents have the choice for other fee charging girls (and boys) in the area... Holy Child Killiney , Mount Anvil , loretto foxrock, loretto dalkey, Rosemont , Wesley etc. We're at the peek of the population wave now so it might not be about having viable numbers now but they're planning for 10 years down the line, maybe they got a hint of things to come with subscriptions and can't wait 10 years or so and then decide to change.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094800#Comment_122094800

Meh! There's about a difference of €2000. I don't think it's about parents in SCD not being able to afford that 🤣.

But you've raised an interesting point about a school surviving (and being able to pay for all the extras) considering the loss per head in single sex is 2k, extrapolate that out and it's a difference of a couple of hundred thousand euros per annum. So it's more of a supply side issue as opposed to demand side (using my Leaving Cert Economics here lol).

Caquas

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/louise-mcsharry-the-kids-want-co-ed-so-why-are-so-many-irish-schools-still-single-sex/a309712947.html

More media tripe on single-sex schools.

This reads like click-bait but, on the whole, I think Louise McSharry is writing from ignorance rather than cynicism. Her uncritical reliance on those ESRI and UL studies to back up her anecdotal evidence is a giveaway. She doesn't even notice the absence of a gender breakdown in the ESRI survey (!) and she was never going to look at the raw data buried by UL.

What astonishes me most is her praise for the American public school system (apparently she attended school there).

Is her ignorance so profound that she genuinely believes that in America

there is no agonising where your children go to school

School choice i.e. the ability to choose a school other than the one nearest the family residence - is one of the hottest topics in American politics. Largely because many big city public schools are failing catastrophically while teachers' unions have immense clout within the Democratic Party (granted, Louise is correct to say that "each student is treated equally").

https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/articles/what-school-choice-is-and-how-it-works

The politics are high-stakes and, like most things for Joe Biden ….complicated. “Doctor” Jill should straighten him out

https://eu.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/07/20/fact-check-does-joe-biden-want-to-end-school-choice/42466037/

But at least there is a debate in America. Not our think-tank/bureaucracy/media ”consensus”.

What does Minister Norma Foley think? She has been entirely reticent on this issue but so, I think, have all her predecessors. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Let the ESRI study be her moment to confirm the policy which the Department has imposed rigorously for decades without democratic mandate or even, it seems, Ministerial approval. She would have the near-unanimous support of Boards.ie

Will she then have the courage of her (newly-espoused) convictions and put public pressure on her former school, Presentation Secondary School in Tralee, to abandon its "discriminatory" girls-only and give the parent and students of Tralee what (the ESRI claims) they really want? Let that be a top commitment in her election literature and to hell with the Healy-Raes!😆

And here’s an essential fact that you will not read anywhere in the media - 70% of Irish post primary schools are already co-Ed , which means that the current balance is a fair reflection of parents and students preferences in the ESRI report. But the Department won’t be happy until it is 100%.

Caquas

More media blather, from the Sindo’s Julia Moloney who paints a grim picture of her girls-only schooling. Sounds like "Mean Girls" (except that was a co-ed school in America where "there is no agonising where your children go to school")

The concepts of diversity and choice, which are supreme values in other areas affecting gender, are simply ignored in this drive to eliminate single-sex schooling.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/julia-molony-one-false-move-at-my-school-and-youd-be-in-social-siberia-why-single-sex-education-must-go/a1692790238.html

reekieóg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096500#Comment_122096500

You make a good point in terms of rich South Dublin parents lol. But for the ones that aren't so rich that send their kids to fee paying schools (for whatever reason), the 2-3k could make a big difference

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099569#Comment_122099569

I don't think so. Although when this school goes co-ed I wonder will the raise the fees to €7k mark to compete? Or are they hoping the extra headcount will do for now

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096716#Comment_122096716

Most of that is a load of crap not relevant to education in Ireland.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122101238#Comment_122101238

Agreed, any more than you could compare our health systems, complete strawman!

From teaching in all variants of school that exist, plenty of kids in single sex wanted mixed and I've never really come across a kid in mixed who wanted to go the other direction. Some of the single sex schools in our areas run off very arcane ethos and would openly admit things like "oh he's very different he'd be much better off with you" about students moving schools instead of seriously engaging with the aggressive and often homophones behaviour within the school. This serves no one when these young people are turned out into society later on.

The lack of subject options is a clear issue for me, and the emphasis from management ,internally promoted from within those systems to keep the status quo. I look at the girls doing woodwork and the boys in Home Ec in my school and I'm genuinely delighted they have the opertunities a lot of girls/boys of my generation didn't.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122101238#Comment_122101238

Thanks. Exactly what I meant about the Sindo piece 😎

Dickie10

id say it wouldnt be any harm at all that all boys schools go into the historical dustbin, i think girls would have a very good effect on the toxic nature of some all boys schools, so they should be first priority. what would people think are the main advantages to male students of not having girls in their schools? i can think of a lot of advantages to not having boys in an all girls school to be honest. i see it everyday as to how much they feel like they can express themselves in different ways that i didnt see in mixed schools. not sure if theres any real advantage to all boys schools at all. love to hear though

Caquas

Finn McRedmond and Jen Hogan "debate" in today's IT (without responding to each other)

Finn quotes her schoolfriends

all of whom agreed on the benefit of their single-sex education.

And concludes that

single-sex education – at least for girls – is the radical act. And the slow descent into a monoculture of co-ed schools is a rather depressing and retrograde idea.

In contrast, Jen has

yet to speak to a single [parent] who thought it was important that their sons and daughters went to two separate schools. 

although

their children, like mine, mostly happily ran into [single-sex] primary school every day. 

Despite the views she espouses today, Jen sent all seven of her children to single-sex schools and she doesn't express any regret for doing so, apparently because the schools were "local". She does not say where she lives but nowhere in Dublin is far from a Co-Ed school. She does not want parents to have that choice.

You might like to contribute to this "debate" but the IT shut down its comment section two years ago and has done nothing to fulfil its bogus promise of an alternative comment system.

Not long ago, freedom of thought, inquiry and expression in Ireland were constrained by an atmosphere of deference towards, and even fear of, the Catholic Church. We now have an intellectual "monoculture", that is a ready conformity to the received wisdom of a new hierarchy of self-appointed ideologues, often attached to educational institutions.

The corollary is an inability to formulate critical thoughts independently or even to engage intelligently with alternative viewpoints. A cursory read of the negative and dismissive comments here is a sad illustration of the phenomenon. We are now close to an educational "monoculture" in Ireland which aims to eliminate real choice in schooling and even the spirit of open enquiry which is the fount of true education.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2024/05/07/the-debate-has-single-sex-education-had-its-day-jen-hogan-and-finn-mcredmond-debate/

Hotblack Desiato

Jen Hogan does not live in Dublin afaik.

The notion that everyone in Dublin has the choice of a range of school types on their doorstep is incorrect. In some places single-sex is the only option. It's the newer / growing suburbs which have ETs etc. The older areas which haven't seen population growth in a long time are stuck with Catholic religious order single-sex and maybe a gaelscoil. The divestment process is a farce designed to fail.

Hotblack Desiato

I bet Finn went to a very nice SoCoDu fee charging girls' school. This means her experiences and those of her schoolmates are not representative.

Her article has nothing to offer but anecdotes and appeal to tradition but that's a very familiar tune from the advocates of enforcing gender segregation in our education system.

She was hired to be an "Indo style" would-be controversialist-for-the-sake-of-it and that's not a positive move by the IT. It's driven by the need for clicks at all costs.

Caquas

Four letters to the IT today. 3 to 1 in favour of choice.

Let’s see if any Government politician has the honesty to campaign openly against single-sex schooling during the forthcoming elections.

‘Has single-sex education had its day?’https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/2024/05/08/has-single-sex-education-had-its-day/

Treppen

I think education has more pressing issues

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122112650#Comment_122112650

Its like the landlord/TD question.

How many TDs went to single sex schools... Fee paying ones at that.

reekieóg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121558#Comment_122121558

I would love to see the statistics on that, can think of about 10 off the top of my head.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121558#Comment_122121558

I don't think anyone knows.

If your suggestion is that TDs won't support co-ed schools because they went to single sex schools, consider this: it is safe to say that the vast majority of TDs went to Catholic schools at primary and/or second-level… including some fee paying ones at that …but this has not prevented them from backing (almost unanimously) a series of measures strongly opposed to Catholic teaching. That may be a very good thing for democracy but it puts a big hole in your thesis. I might make a similar argument about landlord TDs if I could fathom the government's housing policy.

Politicians are in hiding on single-sex schools -even the Minister! - because changing successful schools is a vote loser locally and all our elections are local.

Notice how quiet Left-wing parties have been - the dogs that haven't barked are leaving Labour to wither on the ideological high-ground.

Treppen

this has not prevented them from backing (almost unanimously) a series of measures strongly opposed to Catholic teaching.

I can't see much change on Catholic teaching since I went to school in the 80s!

What's changed?

Btw Wikipedia has most of the tds / ministers education.

applehunter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118640244#Comment_118640244

Aodháns world view seems to stem from being bullied at school.

I'd like to see how the rest of his classmates got on in life.

Hotblack Desiato

Dude, it's 2024.

Dickie10

are there any examples of all girls schools that have changed to boys and girls , whatif any was the change like? vice versa anyone any experience of all boys going to mixed, i think jarlaths in tuam did this. and a few others seems very sicessful with a famous school in mullingar

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132011#Comment_122132011

This is exactly the kind of study which should be done by one of our growing army of Educational Ph.d candidates if the elimination of single-sex schools was about improving education.

In reality, no researcher will touch this issue with a barge pole. What if it emerged that single-sex schools were better, academically and socially? 😳

Then the most torturous statistical “controls” would have to be applied to eliminate this result- the kind of alchemy which UL needed to tell the media that the single-sex schools offered “no significant advantage” although their pupils clearly outperformed the co-ed pupils in the OECD PISA tests.

Remember when politicians used to talk about evidence-based policies? 🤣

Hotblack Desiato

Schools outperform other schools for all sorts of reasons - socioeconomic status of the parents being the main one.