single sex vs mixed schools

Caquas

Another all-girls school will admit boys next year and the media are full of congratulations.

In the Indo, Tanya Sweeney’s launches her praise with the baseless claim that

one must suspect [this] is heartening news for its 250-odd female pupils

One must establish facts, not make baseless assumptions, when writing for a serious newspaper but Tanya knows she can claim anything she likes so long as she is supporting the “right” side. Tanya should read her own report which says this decision was made

after consultation with local primary schools, parents and the school’s board

https://www.independent.ie/life/family/parenting/the-case-for-mixed-education-we-dont-separate-men-and-women-in-adult-life-so-why-do-it-in-school/a44765121.html An eagle-eyed, fearless journalist like Tanya will have spotted a missing group of stakeholders - the 250 girls in the school. But Tanya can read their little girl minds. Or maybe she’s heard about the ESRI report that all the kids want Co-Ed. You won’t be amazed to know that every few students in Co-Ed schools want to get rid of half their classmates. What I can’t find is the relevant fact in this case - how many girls in a single-sex school are keen to share their class rooms with boys.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/most-secondary-school-students-prefer-mixed-sex-education-says-esri-report/a1487675325.html

Their parents reportedly want to prepare the girls for the real world and I’m all for parental choice but why not send their daughters to one of the many mixed-schools in the area?. Could it be that their parents know this is an excellent school but they are just tired of ferrying their brothers to a different school miles away? Although no one doubts the calibre of this school, no one says: if it ain’t broke, because the Department are confident that this dramatic change will in no way lessen this school’s standards.

And Tanya thinks she has the clinching argument- prepare the young for the adult world where men and women mix freely. Of course, Tanya will be writing next week that we must keep teenagers always from smart phones and social media. Or the myriad other ways in which we give special treatment to our young.

Hotblack Desiato

The pupils are the group most likely of all to be in favour of integration.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2024/0430/1446434-esri-co-educational/

Your post comes across as very mean-spirited and more than a bit sexist, tbh.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083705#Comment_122083705

I wouldn't presume that pupils in a single sec school are the biggest cohort in favour of it.

Is there any data on this?

Hotblack Desiato

Christ almighty, read the article.

Here's another one

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/education/2024/04/30/most-students-in-single-sex-schools-want-mixed-enrolment/

Fewer than 20 per cent of students in single-sex schools said they preferred their school’s gender mix, compared with almost 90 per cent in coeducational schools.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083705#Comment_122083705

i suspect the very first line that Caquas had an issue with was intended to be humourous anyway.

as regards the 'if she says kids should be mixed in school but then says they shouldn't have access to social media, she's a hypocrite, and even though she hasn't said it, i've made that conclusion anyway':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsRjQDrDnY8

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084527#Comment_122084527

Read my post slowly this time. Or do you, like Tanya, just assume the girls’ views are the same as the boys?

Better still, read the ESRI report (and not just some media interpretation).

https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/RS182_0.pdf

Nowhere (as far as I can see in its 250 pages) does the ESRI say how many girls in single-sex schools wanted change. I can’t recall any other piece of social research in this century which did not highlight the gender breakdown (even on issues where gender is practically irrelevant) but here we have a study precisely on gender issues which carefully avoids telling us whether there was a difference of views between boys and girls.

We can be sure of one thing - the ESRI collected that data. But it’s seems they (and the media) don't want us to know.

Even if a majority of girls say they prefer single-sex schools, whatever happened to diversity and choice? There is no shortage of mixed-sex schools in south county Dublin. Didn’t they notice that the school was single-sex when they enrollled?

In fairness to the ESRI, it does conclude by calling for a national conversation on these issues but the reality is that the Department is not open to that discussion. It decided this decades ago without any democratic mandate. No new same-sex schools and constant pressure to change existing same-sex schools.

Just to be clear for the slow learners posting here, I am not against Co-Ed schools. I am in favour of parental choice. Which also means parental responsibility- don’t put your kids into a single-sex school if you prefer Co-Ed when there are a myriad alternatives (as in South County Dublin). Why do we insist on “one size fits all”?

And let’s not forget the simplest and smartest approach to reform in all areas - if it ain’t broke….

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083705#Comment_122083705

Pure smear. Nothing to back it up.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122084560#Comment_122084560

Please don’t put words in my mouth, especially not that nonsense.

I don’t think she’s a hypocrite. I pointed out that her argument is inconsistent with widely-held views about teenagers. Do you disagree?

magicbastarder

maybe you worded it badly so?

"And Tanya thinks she has the clinching argument- prepare the young for the adult world where men and women mix freely. Of course, Tanya will be writing next week that we must keep teenagers always from smart phones and social media."

you complain about me putting words in your mouth?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083850#Comment_122083850

There’s lots of data collected by the ESRI but I can’t find the answer to a simple question- do girls in same-sex schools want change? And the obvious follow-up - if girls and their parents want Co-Ed, why don’t they go to the local Co-Ed secondary school?

The media are reporting on this without asking an obvious question and some even assume that girls and boys share the same views. 😱

LastApacheInjun

Thing is, in South County Dublin, if you have the money and the inclination to send your child to a private school, there are far more single sex school than there are co-ed ones. And I know, that to get into one of the co-ed ones, you need to either send your child to the private primary school by fifth class, or be a past pupil, or be the right religion, in order to guarantee your place. The co-ed private schools are massively more oversubscribed than the single sex ones.

Perhaps it is different outside of Dublin?

Primarily, parents want to send their child to the best school for academics and sport/afterschool activities. The gender mix of the school is somewhat of a secondary consideration - a "nice to have" rather than a red line requirement.

The few mixed private schools that I can think of nearby are Wesley, St Andrews, St Columba's, Conleths and Sandford Park. All of which have excellent reputations regarding academics and extra curricular activities. I can't say that the mental health of its students is more or less healthy than those who go to single sex schools - I don't think anyone has done a review on that. But I do know, anecdotally, of some recent incidences of severe bullying in some of the girls-only private schools (including Barbara Ennis' school) that perhaps, having a mixture of genders might help with. So I am less convinced that somehow girls are more protected from societal expectations or are happier in single sex schools.

Having attended single sex schools all my life, I found the first six months at university a very disconcerting experience. I am naturally not a shy person, but I found myself a bit at a loss on how to converse with men, given all my experiences to that point were at discos or house parties. I mean, I got there after a while, but I remember thinking, even at the time, that it was such an artificial way to educate children.

magicbastarder

There’s lots of data collected by the ESRI but I can’t find the answer
to a simple question- do girls in same-sex schools want change?

simple to do some number crunching from that report; "43% of students attended girls’ schools, 30% attended boys’ schools, and 27% were enrolled in coeducational schools."

so 59% of respondents from single sex schools were girls. it's simply impossible to get to the low numbers of single-sex students in favour of single sex schools without a majority of the girls favouring co-ed.

if a majority of girls were in favour of single sex, and no boys were, the total in favour would be a minimum of about 30%. but the total (girls and boys combined) in single sex schools, in favour of single sex schools is 14%.

or another way, if every one of those 14% were girls, with no boys providing that answer, that means less than a quarter of girls gave that response.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085237#Comment_122085237

Amazing! Our national research institute leaves us to guess the gender-breakdown on a gender-based question.

That would be a career-ending omission in any research which arrived at the “wrong” results. And one can always avoid a “wrong” result in the social “sciences” - as we saw with the UL study, just pile on those “controls” and soon the “bad” news will disappear.

Even if a majority of girls said they wanted change, why deprive the (sizeable) minority of their choice when Co-Ed alternatives are readily available to the majority?

magicbastarder

You think not having the data in a specific way you want is egregious enough to be 'career ending'?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085394#Comment_122085394

Not the “way I want”. The way all social research is done. Can you find a single Irish social research project in this century on any topic which didn’t provide a gender breakdown? Or where that factor was not highlighted in the media?

Yet here we have research precisely about gender which ignores/buries the girls’ data.

Definitely career-ending - if it had reached the “wrong” conclusion, e.g. “single-sex schooling is an option valued by many girls and their parents because of its demonstrated academic and developmental benefits and it should be supported as an alternative at this crucial educational stage”.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085110#Comment_122085110

Because everyone can get their child into the type of school they prefer.

Arrant nonsense.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085930#Comment_122085930

Congratulations- another perfect Strawman!

What I did say was that there is no shortage of co-Ed schools in South County Dublin (the area in question). Or do you imagine that anyone was forced to send their daughter to this school? 😅

downtheroad

If you watch the movie Remember the Titans you'll think it was ludicrous that school kids were segregated by colour in the states, yet we happily accept segregation by gender in so many schools in this country.

Kurooi

In my experience, mixed all the way. You just have to know how to work with the opposite sex.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086472#Comment_122086472

No shortage? Can you substantiate this at all?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087716#Comment_122087716

Yes, I can.

Googled it for you. 18 secondary schools in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown, the local authority in question here. Most are mixed gender. Lots more in South Dublin and on the south side of Dublin City.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_in_County_Dublin

You’re welcome.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086520#Comment_122086520

You do know no one is forced to go to a single-sex school? Certainly not in South County Dublin.

This is not about discrimination. This is about diversity and parental choice. But we are getting “one-size fits all”

The ESRI have the audacity to call their report

EMBRACING DIVERSITY IN ALL ITS FORMS’: THE VOLUNTARY SECONDARY SECTOR IN IRISH EDUCATION

Although its main aim is to drive the abolition of an important option for secondary schools.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088197#Comment_122088197

Whooosh

The existence of schools is not the same thing as the availability of places in those schools.

Not all of south county Dublin is in DLR anyway. It's an area with the highest density of fee-paying schools in the country and almost all of them are single-sex.

Even they can see which way the wind is blowing though, parental demand is increasingly for coeducation.

Can you provide us with a single good reason to retain schools which discriminate on the basis of gender?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089075#Comment_122089075

Isn’t it obvious?
Because many parents and their teenage children (especially girls) prefer it.

And the majority who prefer mixed-sex have no shortage of choices whereas the Department is nearing completion of its unannounced but long-standing policy to remove the choice of single-sex schools.

Not forgetting that some of the best-performing schools are single-sex. Isn’t that why parents/students who want change don’t leave?

My question to you - why change a school which is performing very well? (Can’t be because of parents who want mixed-sex education but sent their kids to a single-sex school anyway.)

Hotblack Desiato

Ask the schools which are changing why they are changing. They're not being forced to do so. It's quite apparent by now anyway you're just arguing for the sake of it, you cannot provide a single good reason for gender discrimination in education. In particular, many girls' schools offer very limited science / engineering / technology subjects, how is that in anyone's interest? It's not in boys' interests to not be taught how to cook, either, but practically no boys' schools offer home economics.

If this wasn't just a legacy of tradition (which is literally the worst reason possible to do something, "it's always been done like this") we certainly would not be introducing it now.

Treppen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122090524#Comment_122090524

I think the school in question (SCD moving to co-ed) is changing simply because of falling numbers... Look at admissions for other girl's schools in the area (from reports of admission numbers every year by school). They're well oversubscribed.

Now is the falling population in that school due to parental choice to go to co-ed in another school? We don't know. There is a bit of a myth going around of parents choosing a school like a takeaway from just-eat. Like the myth of "if you don't like a religious school you can choose elsewhere".

Maybe the school cost to much to run with such low numbers and less privately paid teachers were employed, extra curricular coaches too etc. A downward spiral.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091125#Comment_122091125

If this is the reason, let them say so and give over with the mumbo jumbo in the media.

250 students is probably smaller than average but surely not unviable. Does anyone know what is the average school size and what is considered unviable? The Department doesn’t share this information readily. I just see reams of data on “average” class size (for the benefit of the teachers’ unions?). I would love to see a cigire go down to some small town and tell them their secondary school is not viable because it has only 250 students. Tar and feathers freely distrib 😅

Or do the parents of Killiney have different standards?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091330#Comment_122091330

A letter in today’s IT from the Principal of a large boys secondary school, making the point that the findings of the ESRI study should not be misconstrued -

I hope that this wouldn’t be construed to imply that students in single-sex schools are unhappy with where they currently are. Many students thrive and are very happy in single-sex schools…

He also highlights the difference between schools which are heavily over-subscribed and those which are struggling for numbers where

the attraction to coeducation could be more about school survival, rather than any other factor.

Invest in these schools, not more reports, is his plea.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/2024/05/03/esri-report-and-coeducational-schools/

csirl

Its not true to say that single sex schools perform better. In my area, there are 2 x single sex secondary schools and they are considered to be failed schools. Any parent who can, sends their children to one of a number of mainly mixed schools in adjacent areas. There are long waiting lists for the mixed schools.

Its been said a number of times on this thread that single sex schools benefit girls academically. I dont see how. The girls school near me only offers science at junior cert level to 60% of students (3 of 5 classes). Many girls lose out in the lottery to get into the science classes. In an era where girls are being encouraged to do STEM subjects this is unacceptable. Effectiivly 40% of the girls in this school are denied the chance to study any science related courses in third level or pursue a career in a sten area.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122092845#Comment_122092845

Another strawman! No one said all single-sex schools do better.

The UL study found that, overall and on average, students at single-sex schools did significantly better in the OECD tests. The researchers then subjected the data to a plethora of “controls” until they eliminated this unwelcome result and the media could report “no difference” in performance.

Of course the Department has a mountain of data on the Leaving Cert results of every school over decades but we will never see that data because … parents and students could start making informed choices😱.