20% cut to fares for all public transport operators from April

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092419#Comment_120092419

It's logical so won't be implemented. If you got rid of cash you'd have the usual stuff about old people being targeted and not able to use "technology".

At a minimum they need to get rid of the stage fares. A single flat fare across the city and metropolitan area services needs to be implemented. This nonsense of having to interact with the driver to pay by Leap needs to end.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098225#Comment_120098225

I was baffled when the driver in Cork asked where I was going the first time I got a bus there.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098240#Comment_120098240

Yeah it's nuts. The dwell times to board even a small number of people on Cork buses is a big factor in why the buses are unreliable. Between people fumbling for change and everyone with a Leap card having to interact with the driver, it takes way way longer than it should to board. Multiply that out over multiple bus stops on a route and it quickly adds up to a lot of time.

Single flat fare validated via Leap/contactless machine by the door and eliminate cash and you'd instantly improve bus journey times in Cork by a significant amount.

LXFlyer

We already know that the ticketing in Cork is going to change to a time based fare like in Dublin when they start to roll the new network out.

Contactless payments won’t happen on PSO buses until 2024 as part of the NTA’s next generation ticketing project.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098433#Comment_120098433

Will that remove the need to interact with the driver? It also won't get rid of the dwell times due to cash payments. Used the bus last week and you still see people using €20 notes to pay for fares. Madness.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098846#Comment_120098846

Also, why can't the bus driver left-side validator automatically be the short fare validator. There's two ticket validators when you board the bus, the left and right side - they can just configure one to be for short fare and the other to be for travel 90 fare - immediately removing the need to interact with the driver without ever needing to get rid of the dual stage system.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099091#Comment_120099091

Another solution would have been to have a tap off for the short fair like the Luas has.

bk

The solution for Cork is obvious, just make it a flat fare.

Currently there are two fares, €1.35 up to 11 stages, €1.55 for 12+, just split the difference, make the flat fare €1.45 and install a right hand validator.

You could then offer a 90 minute ticket, by having leap add 55c if you tag on a second bus (or train) in 90 minutes.

BTW for those from Dublin, who might not know, many if not most bus routes in Cork aren't long enough to have the long fare or most people only travel half the route into town. Unlike Dublin where the "short" fare is seldom used, in Cork the €1.35 "short" fare makes up the vast majority of fares and is basically the default on most routes. Most people in Cork just ask for a ticket, they don't state destination or fare like you would in Dublin and drivers just normally give it by default.

With so little difference between the two fares in Cork and most people use the short anyway, it really doesn't make sense not to just combine them into a flat fare.

I was down in Cork over Christmas and there were a number of glaring problems with ticketing in Cork (and I assume the same in Limerick, etc.) compared to Dublin:

1) No right hand validator, which really slows things down.

Even people with 24 hour, 7 day, monthly, yearly, tickets etc. have to interact with the driver. Complete and utter madness!

2) The drivers ticket machine is WAY slower then the Dublin Bus drivers ticket machine!

It takes at least a good 20 seconds per passenger and multiple button presses by the driver. I believe the ticket machine is first looking for the 24 hour,etc. tickets and the driver has to wait until non is found before they can put it into the mode to issue a purse ticket! Of course this wouldn't be necessary if there was a right hand validator.

3) You can't pay for a childs ticket on an adult leap card.

What?! I only discovered this over Christmas, I had been asking for a childs ticket on my Leap card like you can do on Dublin Bus. Finally a driver told me you couldn't do that in Cork and you needed a child Leap card. Looking back over my ticket history, it looks like drivers had previously either charged two adults tickets or just one adult ticket and let my little one on for free.

This is all very stupid because of how it slows things down. If you are a parent with three children, you have to get threee child leap cards so, make sure they are all topped up, have each child present their card to the drivers ticket machine and then wait the 20 seconds or so to be issued a ticket!

It makes no sense at all and just makes it all so painfully slow!

4) No 90 minute fare

Get two buses in Cork, it costs €2.70, but in Dublin the same cost only €2. How is that fair?

And shouldn't it cover commuter rail too? Going from lets say Carrigtwohill to UCC, which might involve the train + bus, costs €4.35, while in Dublin, going from Dalkey to DCU, a trip of the same distance, costs just €2!

5) No daily or Weekly capping

What is there to say, we should obviously have these. Sure there are the 24 hour and 7 day tickets, but you have to buy these up front, which isn't as good as automated capping. Just set the daily and weekly cap to the same as these tickets, easy!

---------

The implementation of Leap card and ticketing is a complete mess in Cork. WAY worse then Dublin. It is like they just chucked Leap support in, without really thinking about it and it has resulted in slower boarding times, which is a major loss for Leap/NTA and the people of Cork.

zell12

They could just introduce free bus travel for all as 34% of population already have free travel access (1.75m out of 5.1m people), maybe most don't use it

Citrus_8

So we need 180M for that. No chance, RTE has spent all of our cash...

On a serious note, I'd rather prefer free GP and creche than a PT.

PT could be at an even more reduced price, that I'd accept, but completely free would boost a demand, and we already struggle with that.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824763#Comment_120824763

You reckon the system has the capacity to cope with that?

There were noticeably more short journeys after the last fare cuts. Most were trips that would have otherwise been walked. Free fares would make that worse for little benefit.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120824763#Comment_120824763

Then they become homeless shelters on wheels.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841295#Comment_120841295

Exactly! We already have a huge problem with antisocial behaviour... And also, we can't cop with the demand. With a current driver shortages we'd struggle even more!

bureau2009

There is to be an announcement, now overdue, from the NTA about a new fare structure.

There will be a city zone and a commuter zone and, to put it simply, fares will be pro-rata to distance travelled. It's dependent on operators, eg Irish Rail outside Dublin, being set-up for Leap cards.

It may or may not be beneficial. The National Transport Authority do not inspire confidence.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841342#Comment_120841342

I wonder if it'll be announced before January.

Latest info from Apr on the fares strategy

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/nta-publishes-national-fares-strategy/

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120842145#Comment_120842145

"The migration of current fares to the National Fare Structure is likely to be take place over a number of years"

...what a surprise.

bk

“Under this Structure, fares are to be made up of a combination of a boarding charge plus an incremental fare based on the distance of the journey.”

That sounds like how fares operate in Amsterdam and something I’ve been proposing for years!

Basically it works something like this, if you get on a bus spin Amsterdam:

• pay €1 boarding fee
• pay 20c per km travelled
• if you get off the bus and on a second bus, you don’t pay the boarding fee, you just continue to pay 20c per km.
• you can also swap to tram or metro paying the per km fee but not the boarding.

Sounds complicated, but it is all done automatically with their version of the Leap card. Basically when you tag on, it charges the maximum fare and then when you get off you tag off and it refunds the difference based on distance travelled. Kind of like how leap works on DART now.

of course what is weird, is that instead we will have a hybrid model, the current 90 minute fare in Dublin City and then this per km system outside of Dublin. Not that I’m complaining, the 90 minute ticket at €2 is great value.

This new per km thing sounds more like a way to standardise how much fares should cost, rather then an actual fare system like in Amsterdam.

I wonder are they planning to drop the short fare?

Will they bring the 90 minute €2 ticket to Cork, etc. and within 25km of them?

It looks bad that the 90 minute fare is only in Dublin, makes the NTA look very Dublin centric.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120856136#Comment_120856136

Sure the drivers still give change in Cork on cash fares. DB has been exact fare only for the last 25 years. CIE never really cared about non Dublin city/town services I have always thought Cork, Limerick and Galway should have their own versions of DB instead of being part of the BE provincial network.

But heigh ho we now have the NTA who know much more about running bus, tram and train services than CIE could ever dream of.

LXFlyer

The NTA have already committed to time based fares in the regional cities once the new BusConnects networks start to roll out. They’re essential given the premise of connecting services.

The document above also states on page 5 that within Dublin City the existing fare structure will continue to apply (Short fare, 90 minute fare, Xpresso fare).

Polar101

90 minute fare has been great. The only problem is that the public transport system has been so unreliable lately, that sometimes 90 minutes isn't enough to get to the destination. I often take a bus-train-bus combination that should take 60 minutes at most, but sometimes it takes a lot more. Would be nice if it was 120 minutes instead, but I don't see that happening.

But yeah, especially with the 20% cut, 90min is great value. Should definitely be implemented outside Dublin as well.

bk

“But heigh ho we now have the NTA who know much more about running bus, tram and train services than CIE could ever dream of.”

Well since the NTA arrived they have absolutely transformed the Cork city bus service. It is night and day improvement.

• Forced BE to move from all single deckers to mostly double deckers with a resulting big increase in capacity
• Big improvements in frequencies on many routes
• Replaced all the bus poles and bus shelters which were in an absolutely horrifying state with nice shiny new ones
• Introduced RTPI
• Introduced Leap card

Far from perfect, still a lot to do, in particular the lack of the 90 minute ticket and other ways that the leap card is badly implemented on the BE buses. But there is no comparison compared to the pre NTA days.

Frankly Bus Eireann were a disaster and couldn’t organise a piss up on a bus, yes the NTA are vastly superior to them in running bus services.

“The NTA have already committed to time based fares in the regional cities once the new BusConnects networks start to roll out. They’re essential given the premise of connecting services.”

Great, but they need to pull the finger out and just do it. They need to roll out the 90 minute to Cork, etc. today and the short fares to all routes in Dublin. They need to stop waiting for the network to roll out, the network roll out is taking too long and there is no reason that the fare changes need to wait for it.

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120857855#Comment_120857855

Don’t forget the 90 minutes applies to the subsequent tag on times. So you could take 85 minutes of travel, then hop on a 16 in Ballinteer and travel for the whole journey to the airport and be valid for the 90 minute ticket.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120857867#Comment_120857867

We all know why the network rollout is taking longer than we’d all like, and I think moaning about that isn’t going to get us anywhere. It’ll happen when they can staff it. They can’t magic people out of thin air.

Unfortunately, I honestly don’t think the changes in fare structure in the regional cities will happen any sooner than the start of the BusConnects there - the NTA are too fond of their good news stories and have intertwined the new network rollout and the fare structure change as one.

Cork will presumably start when the implementation of the new electric buses in Limerick permit the transfer of their hybrids to Cork, which hopefully will be in early 2024.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120857867#Comment_120857867

Well I always got the impression that longer distance services were the priority for BE and city services were always an afterthought whereas for DB city services were always the sole focus of the company. That's the reason why city services in Cork were always poor under BE at least imo.

Sure I remember seeing pictures of BE Expressway coaches operating on city routes in Cork not sure if this still goes on but it would be unthinkable in Dublin for a 54 seater coach to show up on the 46a to Dun Laoghaire. But yet that appeared to be a common occurance in Cork in 90s and early 00s.

CIE seemed to put a bit more effort into running services in Cork prior to BE taking over everything non Dublin area. So maybe a DB equivalent for Cork would've better than having it operated by BE but that ship has sailed now the NTA are in charge now basically becoming like TFL for the 26 counties.

bk

“Well I always got the impression that longer distance services were the priority for BE and city services were always an afterthought whereas for DB city services were always the sole focus of the company. That's the reason why city services in Cork were always poor under BE at least imo.”

Oh BE’s long distance services were/are terrible too. Just look at their Expressway service between Cork and Dublin. Use to take 5 hours, no toilet, no Wi-Fi and last departure was 6pm between the two largest cities in Ireland, laughable stuff. Needless to say the private operators like Aircoach completely blew them out of the water with a vastly superior service and the people of Cork couldn’t have been happier with these services.

These private services were licensed by the NTA.

BE’s long distance services around the country, whether Expressway or PSO or pretty terrible.

I suppose some would argue that where BE’s focus actually is, is on the commuter services into Dublin. They basically don’t care about either the city services or the long distance services in the rest of the country, just the Dublin area commuters. But then you’d remember how bad some of those commuter services got that the NTA had to pull their license and awarded some of those routes to GAI.

While the NTA are far from perfect, I think some folks on this forum are in denial in just how poor the CIE companies are in operating their services. The biggest issue that I see with the NTA is that they have so much to do, because the CIE companies were so poorly run for decades. The CIE companies were run look something out of the 1950’s and the NTA are trying to achieve in a relatively short time, what should have been gradually done over the past 70 years but wasn’t.

BTW this is no attack on the individual drivers of BE, etc. who in my experience are mostly great folks, after all you can only drive the bus given, to the schedule given, etc. I’m talking here about how management ran these companies and operations.

mikeybhoy

A lot of it is down to underfunding from the government over the years it's not just the companies fault. Also look at the Expressway routes that BE still operate all the routes that are unattractive to private operators. Privates are only interested in Dublin-Cork/Limerick/Galway all the others aren't profitable to operate a regular service.

Fact of the matter is private operators pay drivers less and have worse conditions than CIE operators that is a fact. Hence why a large proportion of GAI drivers went to DB and a lot of the drivers from private coach operators go to BE.

The private operators are free to tender for PSO services too now and if BE are so inefficient how come they won the 101 and 133 aswell as the Waterford city routes. GAI have been the only other operator to submit tenders to operate PSO services no other private company has tendered for ex DB and BE routes aswell as new stuff like the W4 and W6 and the 197.

john boye

Tbf in many respects BE is a different company to the one that refused to put deckers in rural cities for years. You can see that in how they've been able to compete in tenders against private operators.

We've seen in recent years though that BE are just as quick to close an unprofitable Expressway route as the privates are, the romantic aul guff about them keeping loss-making routes going out of the goodness of their heart is just fantasy now.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120862040#Comment_120862040

Just on your last point, that's not entirely correct - City Direct won the tender for the Kilkenny town service!

bk

"Also look at the Expressway routes that BE still operate all the routes that are unattractive to private operators. Privates are only interested in Dublin-Cork/Limerick/Galway all the others aren't profitable to operate a regular service."

I'm not sure that is really true, look at the private operators in Donegal operating all sorts of local services that BE wouldn't operate and look at how Aircoach stepped in to operate the Galway stopping service when BE dropped it.

"Tbf in many respects BE is a different company to the one that refused to put deckers in rural cities for years. You can see that in how they've been able to compete in tenders against private operators."

Very true, they have vastly improved and I'm delighted to see it.

But I'd argue the root cause of this was the NTA and the manner in which they started tendering licenses and added competition. I believe BE loosing the commuter routes to GAI light a fire under BE's managements ass. They realised they would lose a lot more contracts if they didn't start improving their services.

Frankly I'd pin the improvements we have seen in DB on the same thing, them losing some routes to GAI and the threat of loosing more if they didn't improve.

If the NTA didn't exist and BE/DB still had their monopoly, I'm certain we would all be suffering from the same old crappy service.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863186#Comment_120863186

It's mostly Local Link buses which are PSO up in Donegal there's McGinleys too which do a commercial Dublin service. Donegal is a fairly unique example as they had Lough Swilly for many years and BE took a lot their routes when Lough Swilly went bust. A lot the Local Link services up there are probably ex Lough Swilly routes too I'd imagine. Lough Swilly were the only non CIE operator that got government funding as CIE did not serve most of Co.Donegal for many years. They would've run a lot of school services in Donegal which was done by CIE/BE in the rest of the country. Their fleet was ancient and in a terrible state too I'd saying they were struggling just to keep a service going for a long time.

Citylink still operate a Dublin to Galway stopping service aswell. Aircoach could probably operate the route at a lower cost than BE as they pay their drivers less and you also have to remember that BE are a larger operator with mostly PSO services where they'll be fined if they don't operate so commercial routes are no longer their priority. Its the reason I'd imagine DB dropped Airlink so they could focus on PSO work.

Look at the X8 when BE pulled out the NTA stepped in and provided the 245X Dublin to Cork service as a PSO route. A lot of the Expressway work has been replaced by privates with lower costs, PSO routes and Translink on cross border routes. I never said BE were operating those routes out of the goodness of their hearts I'm saying that BEs priorities have changed to providing shorter distance PSO regional and city services as opposed to Intercity Expressway routes which was their main focus previously.

AngryLips

In a way, DB and BE should not be restricted in where they can tender for routes, no harm in some healthy competition even if it's between two semi-states.

Red Silurian

BE announcing an increase in fares of 5% today, what they give with one hand they take away with the other

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865738#Comment_120865738

That’s purely on their commercial Expressway services, which are not subsidised.

The fares on their PSO routes (the city, town, commuter and rural routes) are unaffected.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865769#Comment_120865769

Yes, but what if I want to take a bus on an intercity route?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865924#Comment_120865924

Well again Expressway is a commercial service, which is not subsidised.

Virtually all commercial operators have increased their fares in line with increasing costs over the past year.

They have to cover their costs unfortunately.

doc22

What's the logic in subsidising city and rural bus routes while intercity/town routes are left with fare increases. Using inflation as an excuse when fuel to down at pre covid levels.

When's the 20% fare reduction ending on the other routes ending?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866016#Comment_120866016

Fuel is only one cost, there’s still payroll and all other costs which will have increased with inflation.

Well the PSO services basically couldn’t operate without a State subsidy, while the market seems to be capable of accepting commercially set fare levels for Intercity routes.

If the commercial operators were not able to cover their costs they’d cancel the routes and then the question of whether replacement PSO services are needed would come into play.

There are examples of routes, such as the X8 between Dublin & Cork and others where Bus Éireann have withdrawn their commercial operation and they have subsequently been replaced with PSO services.

Ultimately that’s down to a government policy decision.

The 20% fare reduction on PSO services remains in place until the end of 2023. We will have to wait for the budget in October to find out what will happen then.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865724#Comment_120865724

Irish Rail could in theory bid too after all Deutche Bahn, NS and SNCF all run bus services in addition to rail based services. What would be the point on two subsidiaries of the same company bidding against one another be like Sprite and Fanta trying to compete against Coca Cola.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866250#Comment_120866250

Well the obvious answer to that question would be to fully break up CIE, so that DB/BE/IR are fully separate companies and then let them compete for tenders with one another.

zell12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867465#Comment_120867465

Imagine! We could be like the disaster that is the UK railway system

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867486#Comment_120867486

I’m not suggesting that at all! Please don’t misquote me like that.

I was just suggesting fully separating DB/BE/IR from CIE and each other. They could all continue to be 100% state owned companies.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867465#Comment_120867465

What's the point on that?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867529#Comment_120867529

I can’t see that happening given CIÉ group manage the group pension scheme.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867552#Comment_120867552

The point would be to drive competition. To bring innovation and better services to the public.

Some folks seem to forget that these aren’t actually public companies, they are semi-state companies, big difference. A semi-state company is really just he same as a private company, who’s shares happen to be owned by the government. Such semi-state companies are supposed to operate just the same as a private company, they are supposed to operate like a commercial company, make a profit, compete, etc.

Look at Deutche Bahn, German state owned company, yet they compete for and win contracts to operate train services in the US, UK and all across Europe!

This is quiet common in mainland Europe where you will see different state owned companies competing against one another and private companies.

I really don’t care if a company is “private” or “public”, as long as there is some competition and no monopoly and they deliver a good quality service to the public.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867717#Comment_120867717

What innovation would there be if the NTA are calling the shots?

Most of the large transport operators in Europe are owned by foreign governments Transdev is part owned by the Frnech government, Arriva is Deutsche Bahn owned by German government, Abellio is owned by the Dutch government, RATP group is also owned by the French government. Look at all the UK rail operators nearly all owned by foreign government.

Maybe people would like to keep tax money within Ireland and not have it sent off to foreign governments in the name of "competition".

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867846#Comment_120867846

I'm not sure why you said any of the above, it has nothing at all to do with what I suggested above!

To be clear, I just suggested that DB/BE/IR would be separated from CIE, while still remaining state owned, so they could compete with one another for contracts here in Ireland. As a result the tax money would remain in Ireland!

Hell perhaps BE/BE could even compete for contracts to operate buses for London Bus, etc. earn us some more tax money from abroad. Much like the ESB does with their international arm.

"Maybe people would like to keep tax money within Ireland and not have it sent off to foreign governments in the name of "competition"."

Honestly, I think most people couldn't care less. They just care about a good service. Do you honestly believe most believe would sit on the BE Expressway to Cork for 5 hours versus the foreign owned GoBus for 3 hours. Nah, not a hope.

Just like most people didn't care when AerLingus got privatised and sold off to a foreign company. No one would want to return to the 70's and 80's of the public owned AerLingus monopoly.

The reality is Ireland takes in vast sums of tax money from foreign companies via corporate tax. 10 Billion government budget surplus this year, expected to grow to €16 Billion next year!

We are now one of the richest countries in the world, awash with money, but the quality of our public services don't come anywhere close to matching other similar European cities and most people are fed up with it. If DB/BE step up and deliver that world class service, then great, I genuinely hope they do, but if not, then most people will have no problem getting foreign companies if they deliver a better service.

What I'm actually saying is that I wish our semi state companies were better run, more competitive, more innovative.

mikeybhoy

It's nothing to do with DB and BE anymore it's the NTA who are in charge of all public transport in Ireland now. Its them who need to step up and be more innovative.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868077#Comment_120868077

They have, they have been more innovative in 10 years then DB/BE have been in the 50 years before that!

Do you really want me to list off all the improvements they have introduced?

And ironically it is DB/BE (and yes GAI) who are holding things back, because they can't hire, train and retain enough drivers to implement the innovative changes envisaged by the NTA in Bus Connects. This is the one job DB/BE/GAI have to do, operate the service they are contracted to do and they are struggling badly with this one job!

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868179#Comment_120868179

The only things that they can list are

90 minute fare: DB had that pre NTA

Dual door buses: DB/BE had that before NTA

RTPI: technology didn't exist pre NTA

Funny how the NTA were founded in 2008 then distanced themselves when the government forced DB/BE to make cutbacks during the recession.

If DB/GAI/BE want to put on extra buses during say a concert they must first ask for permission from the NTA. Oh how conveniently the NTA only work office hours and concerts/events usually take place late at night or at weekends oh well guess folks will just have to walk or attempt to get a taxi if the buses are full.

Why does nobody want to drive a bus well it sure as hell isn't because the wages and conditions are brilliant their far from it. Who resources DB/BE/GAI oh that's right the wonderful NTA but we can't mention that. Just like how it's top secret how much the NTA are giving GAI and what are NTA top brass earning you can be damn sure it's a lot higher than the salary of a steering wheel attendant for DB/BE/GAI. But we can't be talking about dat.