20% cut to fares for all public transport operators from April

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119024810#Comment_119024810

Correct. Two short and one long beep for a child or student card compared to one long beep for adult cards.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119024810#Comment_119024810

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OWXowkkIHkI

A lot of kids use this YouTube video instead. It's easy for the driver to spot, but I never called them back because (a) Not my job, (b) enough kids mindlessly throw €2 into the vault anyway, and (c) if they NTA cared about collecting fares, they'd have invested in functioning ticket machine equipment a long time ago.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119029634#Comment_119029634

This guy in London started that I think must've expanded here since this was made. https://youtu.be/Uu7Z_pImZmE

Agreed the driver is employed to drive the bus not as revenue protection. If the NTA really cared about their fare revenue they'd employ a similar amount of revenue protection officers on the bus as there already is on the Luas.

bk

"If the NTA really cared about their fare revenue they'd employ a similar amount of revenue protection officers on the bus as there already is on the Luas."

They should do this, but if they do, they should fully embrace the Luas model.

3 to 4 doors on the bus, entry/exit via any door, zero driver interaction.

Just like Luas and many bus services on continental Europe. This approach would focus on making the bus service as fast and efficient as possible, rather then being all focused on the maximum fare protection in a poor manner.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031569#Comment_119031569

And then you wonder why in an average bus trip in Dublin, about a third of the trip time is dwell time at stops 😶

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031569#Comment_119031569

It would be a good idea but the longer articulated and tri axle buses used in some places on the continent would be quite akward for some of the tighter parts of Dublin.

One that annoys me about these fare reductions is that the cash fares have been included in the reductions why the hell is that. I thought they were trying to decentivise cash.

While the reductions are great I think an opportunity has been missed to get rid of the short fare and cash completely making all fares €2 across the board.

Dodge

you’re suggesting that a move wholly designed to help with the “cost of living” should have included removing the lowest fares?

wow

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033056#Comment_119033056

The short fare is for journies less than 3km honest question how many journeys under 3km can't be walked. Of course some might ask well how do the elderly/disabled manage and my answer to that would be most of them have free travel passes anyway. €2 is still fcuk all.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033233#Comment_119033233

It literally doesn’t matter what you think. The only reason the government allowed this is to reduce prices. Everything else is immaterial

zell12

As I pointed out before, private buses are at a loss and the move could be breaching EU competition rules:

“The decision to actively exclude private operators from this scheme unconscionably distorts the market, and enables State-funded services to engage in a monopoly, by offering the type of discounts that family-owned, private transport companies could never compete with. Simply put, this decision risks putting hundreds of operators out of business. The solution is straightforward – the Department of Transport must seek to include commercial bus operators in the 20% fare reduction scheme as a matter of grave urgency. Ultimately, the cost of including private operators in the scheme is inconsequential, when you consider the financial repercussions of a diminished private bus network and the environmental consequences of a mass return to private, single-occupancy vehicles among disenfranchised rural commuters.”

https://www.thejournal.ie/public-transport-fare-reduction-private-bus-5758687-May2022/

maebee

I'm raging I knew nothing about this until this morning. Last night I bought a train ticket from Limerick to Dublin for the 15th, which cost me 30 euros. This morning it was 18.90 🤬.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037084#Comment_119037084

As I pointed out before, that's utter nonsense.

There's no "market" to distort. These are all public service routes. It's no more against competition rules to provide public bus services at €2 as it is at €2.30.

If you're going to argue that state provision of public transport is intrinsically illegal then all I can say is best of luck to you.

Quackster

But there are market distortions. Some commercial routes compete with Irish Rail, which is benefiting from the fare reduction.

But that's not to say that the commercial operators should benefit too as Irish Rail was being subsidised already, it's just the level of subsidy has been increased.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037923#Comment_119037923

I think we shouldn't let intercity bus routes to duplicate train routes, how it's done in Germany long ago. That gives the best efficiency subsidising intercity trains making them popular and affordable rather than giving all operators a little. German model is more effective.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119037084#Comment_119037084

there is no breach of EU competition laws, there is no distortion of any market, simply ireland catching up to what the rest of europe have been doing for decades, in our case on a temporary basis.hopefully by or near the end of it people will make it's continuation a political issue so it will become permanent.

bk

"there is no breach of EU competition laws, there is no distortion of any market,"

My initial reaction is the same as yours, but if I think about it, I can see an argument where the private service is relatively similar to a PSO service. Like the intercity coaches versus Irish Rail or the Swords Express versus the 41. I could see a judge agreeing with that argument.

I'd agree with you that such subsidy is long overdue and you wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, if they found the private operators had a case, then the solution would be to also subsidise a 20% cut for them. Though a bit awkward and weird to think on how that would work.

"I think we shouldn't let intercity bus routes to duplicate train routes, how it's done in Germany long ago. That gives the best efficiency subsidising intercity trains making them popular and affordable rather than giving all operators a little. German model is more effective."

I'd think that would be mad! The intercity coaches is the best thing that has happened to intercity public transport in decades and has been a massive success that has helped drive intercity public transport usage.

Prior to them entering the market, the services offered by IR and BE were terrible quality and terribly overpriced. Since they entered the market, IR has been forced to improve their service and drop prices. Competition works.

Who in their right mind would want to go back to pay fares of €100+ to not even get a seat and have to stand for 3 hours on a train to Cork like in the old days!

This certainly wouldn't benefit any commuters or public transport users.

I also don't get why people seem to think their is something special about rail and it needs to be protected for some reason! Most commuters couldn't care less about which metal box on wheels they take, as long as it is fast and affordable and gets them to where they need to go, they couldn't care less.

IMO if rail is to succeed, it needs to do so on it's own merits, by offering a better product, whether faster or cheaper or more comfortable, etc. Not by artificially being handed a monopoly, that isn't good for anyone IMO, including the rail service.

bk

And BTW, I'm not sure where you get the idea that Intercity coaches are banned in Germany versus rail routes. The market was liberalised and opened up to intercity coaches in Germany in 2013.

Hell, even DB, the German rail company even operates their own intercity coach services, sometimes even competing with their own rail lines:

https://www.europebyrail.eu/coach-or-train-the-ic-bus-brand/

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040701#Comment_119040701

Flixbus seems to be quite big on the continent now surprised they haven't entered the Irish market yet

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040878#Comment_119040878

Market is still too regulated to appeal to them. Only two operators on a route etc.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040889#Comment_119040889

Surprised they wouldn't try buy out one of the existing operators GoBus or Dublin Coach possibly

TranslatorPS

I'd agree with you that such subsity is long overdue and you wouldn't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, if they found the private operators had a case, then the solution would be to also subsidise a 20% cut for them. Though a bit awkward and weird to think on how that would work.

Outside of actually contracting them to operate the service is there a mechanism to subsidise a fare cut though? I mean, we've had the subsidies in 2020-21, but those subsidies were to make the companies survive under revenue reduced organically due to lower passenger numbers, not under revenue seemingly forcibly cut down due to lower fares.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119040987#Comment_119040987

Flixbus very rarely operates anything directly, most of their services are operated by franchisees with coaches branded. The one thing I'm unsure of is how it's financed beyond that: if they're contacted in the gross model of NTA PSO buses, in the old net model, or if they're just a ticket sales middleman and nothing beyond that.

bk

"Outside of actually contracting them to operate the service is there a mechanism to subsidise a fare cut though?"

Yep, I'm not sure how they would actually do it. Perhaps at the end of the year the companies just submit the amount of ticket sales for the year and get paid 20% of that.

Many of the operators already do something similar for the free travel pass, submitting how many FTP tickets they "sell" and getting a payment for those.

Could be messy. Don't get me wrong, I don't know if they will be successful, I can see the argument from both sides, I just wouldn't be so sure that a judge might not side with them.

"Flixbus very rarely operates anything directly, most of their services are operated by franchisees with coaches branded. The one thing I'm unsure of is how it's financed beyond that: if they're contacted in the gross model of NTA PSO buses, in the old net model, or if they're just a ticket sales middleman and nothing beyond that."

Sounds like how Citylink operate, they own the route, brand, marketing, website, ticketing, etc. but don't actually own any coaches, instead they contract another local firm (Callinan Coaches) to operate the route.

Flixbus seem to be focused on mainland Europe for now, which probably makes sense for them to develop their interconnected network there. Their only presence in the UK so far is in London to mainland Europe network. I'd expect them to spread to the UK first before Ireland (if ever).

BTW interestingly they also operate private train services in Germany under the Flixtrain brand. So not only does Germany have coaches competing with trains, they even have an open access train network with private train competitors!

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041825#Comment_119041825

So it's just the same way National Express have operated for years

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042429#Comment_119042429

Flixbus are already in the UK and even the US now

https://www.flixbus.co.uk/

https://www.flixbus.com/bus/united-states

vafankillar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119033233#Comment_119033233

The whole point of this is to help with the cost of living & incentivize people to use public transport, increasing the price of the short fair is beyond bonkers. also it's aprox 3km not specifically under it, if there isn't a shorter fare, especially when it was €2.50 people would more likely just drive than walk 30 mins in the pissing rain, creating more traffic too which would counter act the wait of the driver giving people the shorter fare that you're complaining about

zell12

Potentially 63% fare difference between the private operator and the BÉ route

TranslatorPS

Deputy Grealish doesn't seem to understand that commercial is commercial, end of. Let the State take control of CD's routes and then we can talk about it.

And I'm saying this as somebody who has only the 411 within a 5 minute walk from my house.

AngryLips

Arguing that commercial operators are getting the short straw with these subsidies is totally disingenuous. Public service operators have been on these routes long before any of the private operators and to say that the fares of these PSO routes should take into consideration the fares of the private operators is equivalent to saying that the PSO fares should be indexed against private companies.

Peregrine

Yeah, the solution there is to stop renewing the commercial licenses and operate those routes as PSO. Especially City Direct Galway. But that will take time.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119052301#Comment_119052301

Yes same should be done for the JJK services in Waterford. I think City Direect weren't operating during covid either

VonLuck

May have been asked before but how does a reduction from €2.30 to €2 equate to a 20% reduction?

wench

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119055372#Comment_119055372

The 2.30 was a promo discount from the actual full fare of 2.50.

The fare went up to 2.50 at about the same time the 20% kicked in, resulting in the 2.00 fare

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119054684#Comment_119054684

No, they weren't, and it took them a few stages to return to a full schedule as well I think.

busy bee 33

The leap fare from Balbriggan or Maynooth to town on the train (ie, short hop zone) is €2.

That’s way more than a 20% discount.

LXFlyer

Balbriggan is actually EUR 3.90 to the city centre on the train, but all subsequent journeys within 90 mins of starting are then free.

The rail fares are based on distance bands so fares for each station combination.

But from the city centre the EUR 2 fare is valid to Rush & Lusk, Maynooth/M3 Parkway, Hazelhatch and Bray.

Hippodrome Song Owl

Is there anywhere to check what fare you should be paying on Dublin Bus - whether the short fare for "approx 3km" applies to your journey or not. I have been paying this fare for the past few months - that's what drivers have charged when I state destination - but suddenly being charged €2.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105381#Comment_119105381

The fare calculator is on the Dublin Bus app.

On non "Busconnected" routes, the short fare applies to journeys of 1-3 stages, and the stages are listed on the timetable pages on the Dublin Bus website.

Hippodrome Song Owl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105395#Comment_119105395

Thank you! I didn't even know they had a app and the fare calculator seems to be gone from the website.

It's a Bus Connects new route, but the app lists it as:

Stages 3 - €1.70 - Staged Route Adult Cash Fare. Then €1.30 leap. No mention of the 3km and it's difficult to calculate on the map because the route takes ridiculous detours all around the estates.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119105498#Comment_119105498

Yes - €1.70 is the cash fare for 1-3 stages and €1.30 is the LEAP fare. So for your trip it is the cheaper fare.

The mechanics of the fares are still based on fare stages, but the routes that have been “BusConnected” now have revised stages which have far longer distances between them and enable the approximate 3km distance that the short fare is supposed to reflect.

The problem is that for some inexplicable reason, the NTA don’t want to publish the fare stages any more with the timetables.

For non “BusConnected” routes the fare stages are still on the timetable pages of the Dublin Bus website.

p_haugh

Reduced fares potentially being extended into next year:

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/public-transport-fa-res-discounts-could-be-extended-in-budget-package-to-help-counter-surging-prices-41772621.html

p_haugh

Well this is some welcome news. Fare reductions coming to the nitelink fares from tonight.

Adult: €2.40 using a Leap Card or €3 in cash

Student/Young adult (aged 19-23): €1.20 using a Leap Card or €3 in cash

Child: €1 using a Leap Card or €1.30 in cash

https://www.thejournal.ie/nitelink-fares-5856418-Sep2022/

Cookiee

The young adult and student leap fares are really well priced. Today I applied for a young adult one, and apparently selfie verification failed and it is sent for manual check! Can take 3 weeks, so much for getting my affordable fares for now 🤣

p_haugh

Young Adult/Student fare extended to cover various commercial operators. That's some really good news to hear, especially for students who need to use these services for college etc.

One thing to note is that for some providers (aka the ones not linked up to the leap card scheme), the discount will only be available through TFI Go.

https://about.leapcard.ie/half-price-fares-on-tfi-and-commercial-bus-services

AngryLips

Does the extension of the 20% discount on public transport fares in today's budget mean that the NTA will do nothing about fare reform again this year? It's clear that before all this, the NTA were moving towards fare structures that were not operator specific (think Travel 90 fare), but with the continued discount I would assume that changing annual tickets will be deferred so that the benefit of the 20% discount remains clear and unambiguous.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119673043#Comment_119673043

It doesn't mean that at all. Fare simplifications are detail level that you wouldn't get in a budget speech.

We will have to wait and see whenever the next fare determination report is issued.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119673059#Comment_119673059

This is true in theory only. There's no doubt the NTA would be under political pressure and discouraged from making any changes, because changing the fare structure will turn an actual 20% discount that we have at present, into a hypothetical discount against a hypothetical price point that no one will have actually paid before. Changing the fare structure and price at a time when there's a 20% discount would totally undermine the whole concept of the discount and give the impression that there is no discount if the original price was never established to begin with.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119673166#Comment_119673166

Well let's wait and see.

bk

Well first of all I'm delighted to hear that the 20% discount will continue.

I do think it would be absolute political suicide for the NTA to increase the 90 minute fare, short fare, etc. via the fare determination. I think the €2 90 minute fare is here to stay.

I think however there would be space for them to adjust the monthly/yearly tickets and in particular how tax saver works [1] (frankly scrap it and start over IMO) given the new pattern of hybrid work. I'd also love to see them increase cash fares regardless, but that might not be politically possible unfortunately.

[1] With the upper rate tax band increasing to €40,000 yesterday, some people might actually find their tax saving almost wiped out by the fact that they get less discount on the tax saver now! Shows what a badly designed scheme it is.

AngryLips

That's an interesting point and I guess a counter argument that might act as a driving consideration to encourage the NTA to change the approach to annual tickets. There's a massive amount of people who were previously getting a 40% benefit from taxsaver who will now be getting a 20% benefit. And the cut-off is probably higher than €40k when pension contributions are taken account of. I'm sure both arguments are being made in the department of transport, will be interesting to see which wins out - the cynic in me says the status quo will prevail.

Dodge

Has anybody seen statistics for the number of people availing of the tax saver tickets (compared to say 2019)?

Because anecdotally, everybody I know who had one in 2019 and 2020 doesn’t any more