20% cut to fares for all public transport operators from April

p_haugh

Well this is some welcome news. Fare reductions coming to the nitelink fares from tonight.

Adult: €2.40 using a Leap Card or €3 in cash

Student/Young adult (aged 19-23): €1.20 using a Leap Card or €3 in cash

Child: €1 using a Leap Card or €1.30 in cash

https://www.thejournal.ie/nitelink-fares-5856418-Sep2022/

Cookiee

The young adult and student leap fares are really well priced. Today I applied for a young adult one, and apparently selfie verification failed and it is sent for manual check! Can take 3 weeks, so much for getting my affordable fares for now 🤣

p_haugh

Young Adult/Student fare extended to cover various commercial operators. That's some really good news to hear, especially for students who need to use these services for college etc.

One thing to note is that for some providers (aka the ones not linked up to the leap card scheme), the discount will only be available through TFI Go.

https://about.leapcard.ie/half-price-fares-on-tfi-and-commercial-bus-services

AngryLips

Does the extension of the 20% discount on public transport fares in today's budget mean that the NTA will do nothing about fare reform again this year? It's clear that before all this, the NTA were moving towards fare structures that were not operator specific (think Travel 90 fare), but with the continued discount I would assume that changing annual tickets will be deferred so that the benefit of the 20% discount remains clear and unambiguous.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119673043#Comment_119673043

It doesn't mean that at all. Fare simplifications are detail level that you wouldn't get in a budget speech.

We will have to wait and see whenever the next fare determination report is issued.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119673059#Comment_119673059

This is true in theory only. There's no doubt the NTA would be under political pressure and discouraged from making any changes, because changing the fare structure will turn an actual 20% discount that we have at present, into a hypothetical discount against a hypothetical price point that no one will have actually paid before. Changing the fare structure and price at a time when there's a 20% discount would totally undermine the whole concept of the discount and give the impression that there is no discount if the original price was never established to begin with.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119673166#Comment_119673166

Well let's wait and see.

bk

Well first of all I'm delighted to hear that the 20% discount will continue.

I do think it would be absolute political suicide for the NTA to increase the 90 minute fare, short fare, etc. via the fare determination. I think the €2 90 minute fare is here to stay.

I think however there would be space for them to adjust the monthly/yearly tickets and in particular how tax saver works [1] (frankly scrap it and start over IMO) given the new pattern of hybrid work. I'd also love to see them increase cash fares regardless, but that might not be politically possible unfortunately.

[1] With the upper rate tax band increasing to €40,000 yesterday, some people might actually find their tax saving almost wiped out by the fact that they get less discount on the tax saver now! Shows what a badly designed scheme it is.

AngryLips

That's an interesting point and I guess a counter argument that might act as a driving consideration to encourage the NTA to change the approach to annual tickets. There's a massive amount of people who were previously getting a 40% benefit from taxsaver who will now be getting a 20% benefit. And the cut-off is probably higher than €40k when pension contributions are taken account of. I'm sure both arguments are being made in the department of transport, will be interesting to see which wins out - the cynic in me says the status quo will prevail.

Dodge

Has anybody seen statistics for the number of people availing of the tax saver tickets (compared to say 2019)?

Because anecdotally, everybody I know who had one in 2019 and 2020 doesn’t any more

L1011

I only still have mine due to the two extensions, ditto my partner. Both being dropped when they expire.

LXFlyer

Personally I always thought that one of principal aims of the Taxsaver Scheme was to aim at getting higher tax rate payers out of their cars and onto public transport. Let’s be honest they are the ones least likely to move, and halving the cost of the tickets as an incentive was a logical move.

The problem is that subsequent governments and then the NTA decided to erode the levels of discount that the tickets offered at gross level, by taking the tax effect into account in deciding the price that monthly and annual tickets were offered at, and hiked the prices of season tickets up.

This in my view should never have happened, but that is where we are at.

I'm back commuting five days a week, and I am certainly seeing more and more people doing the same, so I think it will continue to benefit people.

At EUR 115 gross for a month's travel on a single mode, or EUR 55 net, that is very good value when you factor in using the bus at weekends, and maybe the odd additional weekday trip. I certainly wouldn't want to lose it.

Some of you seem to forget that people don't just use these tickets to get to/from work!!

AngryLips

The annual ticket should offer a discount over using public transport for a two way journey five days a week. Saying it's good value if you use it on weekends as well isn't really much of an incentive at all.

bk

"Personally I always thought that one of principal aims of the Taxsaver Scheme was to aim at getting higher tax rate payers out of their cars and onto public transport. Let’s be honest they are the ones least likely to move, and halving the cost of the tickets as an incentive was a logical move."

I'd agree that this is likely where the concept came from, but I believe it is fundamentally flawed now for two reasons.

1) Ireland has become such a relatively wealthy country now, that even folks on the lower tax rate, can still afford a car and many do these days. Ireland has relatively high car ownership pretty much across the board.

2) IT and financial services tends to have the highest earners and hybrid working has pretty much become the norm now for those industries and trust me it isn't going away. The taxsaver scheme is pretty much useless for these workers now.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a reduction, but I do think the entire concept of the scheme needs to be reconsidered and redesigned from the ground up.

To be honest, I'd argue that it would be better to just make public transport cheaper for everyone, all the time.

"The problem is that subsequent governments and then the NTA decided to erode the levels of discount that the tickets offered at gross level, by taking the tax effect into account in deciding the price that monthly and annual tickets were offered at, and hiked the prices of season tickets up."

I agree completely and frankly it shows why it such a poor scheme. I'm not aware of any other country that has a scheme like this. In most countries you simply get a straight 40% or whatever off monthly/yearly tickets and it is available to everyone, not just higher earning workers. It is really quiet unfair and unjust.

"Some of you seem to forget that people don't just use these tickets to get to/from work!!"

But in reality that is what the majority of users of these schemes do, it certainly shouldn't be necessary to make it viable. And it is pretty much useless to hybrid workers.

p_haugh

Just seen this on twitter, Matthews taking the initiative!

https://twitter.com/RailUsersIe/status/1610987967962570752?t=7H-wXfEfq6DkxJR6K_5Cnw&s=19

AngryLips

Well they've missed the boat this year to introduce the same on public services given the volume of taxsaver renewals occurring at this time of year, which is all the excuse they need to delay until January next year.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119678987#Comment_119678987

Yes but it also needs to include a feature where the annual ticket can be paid as a subscription.

Incremental lump sum discounts based on week-month-year are very unfair on poorer people

cgcsb

Most people seem to be working at home at least one day a week now. In the future we may have a 4 day week as standard across all office based employment plus a wfh day. The standard rate cut off point is up to 40k this year and a new 30% rate may be introduced next year for 40k to 80k. It's not clear how the tax saver model can adapt to such a fast changing new world we have.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120072674#Comment_120072674

Many people especially in healthcare have been working 3 or 4 day weeks for years.

How exactly does a flexi one work though. Would you be paying for 30 trips as opposed to a time frame or a mix of both ?

bk

I feel that the entire tax saver scheme is no longer fit for purpose and should probably be scrapped and replaced.

The combination of the €2 90 minute fare and many people working at least one day a week from home has killed the value of it for most people in the Dublin area.

The whole idea of it is quit unjust, no reduction if you are unemployed, less reduction if on lower wage, biggest reduction for higher earners, is quiet a mad system!

Perhaps replace it be just making public transport more affordable for everyone.

Perhaps something like in the Netherlands where everyone can get up to 40% off monthly and annual tickets (directly, no messing with tax), keep the €2 90 minute fare, perhaps reduce the daily and weekly capping even more (get rid of all the caps except the multimode and make it cheaper).

Just a guess on my part, but I suspect we haven’t seen any changes to the tax saver scheme yet, is perhaps because they are completely rethinking it, at least I hope so.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120072923#Comment_120072923

Fair capping on the Leap card is useless outside of Dublin.

A Limerick day pass is €3.80 but the card still only caps at €5.60

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073031#Comment_120073031

Oh, Leap is almost useless outside of Dublin. Another item that needs fixing badly.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073394#Comment_120073394

They still don't have tap and go on the buses in Limerick city so I have to place the card, wait for it to recognize that my old day pass is out of date, then the driver can press his button and off we go. It's almost as slow as cash.

It's better than nothing but not as good as it could be. For instance the train to Ennis is only €5 which is less than the bus (which accepts Leap) but I can't just tap to get the train.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120072923#Comment_120072923

Similar issue to the cycle to work scheme which could encourage lower paid workers to cycle more and save money going forward. Make over 40k? Here's a €1k bike for 500 quid. Make 25k? Well that same bike is going to cost you 700.

There's surely a fairer way of doing all of these things, that said I guess these people are paying more tax but the benefits of these schemes would still be felt by all if there was a flat tax credit across the board or something

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073486#Comment_120073486

Is that true. I thought the BtW just knocks the VAT off and wouldn't change based on income.

I do have an issue with it that it is lower paid jobs are far far less likely to facilitate BtW.

they should have a system to apply for a full VAT refund through Revenue for those people.

howiya

There was an announcement in work of an upcoming deadline to apply for taxsaver passes beginning in February. As others have alluded to, living in Dublin and not commuting every day I don't see the value in getting one. I looked up the prices for other areas out of interest, see what family members would have to pay etc...

Kildare to Heuston €2,100 or €2,430 with the luas/bus add on to Connolly.

In contrast public transport seems a lot better value other countries. There are probably places where it is more expensive too. Take Austria as an example. "These include, for example, annual tickets, student tickets and senior citizen tickets. Annual Pass: Costs €365 for all Wiener Linien transport in the state of Vienna. An annual ticket including Lower Austria costs €730 and €1095 for all of Austria."

And this in a "climate emergency". Surely public transport could be made cheaper if we are serious about tackling climate change. While I don't think the €2 fare is terrible value, I commute minimum twice a week so that's €8 a week. Add on trips into town at the weekend a couple of times a month etc. In Vienna unlimited access costs €7 a week.

Maybe the ringfenced carbon tax proceeds could be used to subsidise public transport further. The relative referred to above says the train gets packed in Sallins because everyone drives there to avail of the short hop zone. Public transport policy encouraging car journeys...

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073597#Comment_120073597

You need to be going a certain number of stops to make them worth your while. They are even less useful now with more people working from home a few days of the week.

I said this before, it cheaper to hire a car than to get four people to the west coast by rail. I had to traveled down to Galway for work during a week day so I hoped on the train and the only people on it seemed to be people with free travel passes or students, anyone commuting were using private services as it was far cheaper, it’s the same for Dundalk. There is a cheaper, faster and more reliable private service available.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073394#Comment_120073394

I must be imagining the discounted fares available on every Bus Éireann PSO bus service across the country and most Local Link services then?

The capping in provincial cities needs addressing for sure, but LEAP is far from useless outside of Dublin.

I have travelled extensively recently on a variety of rural routes and availed of the discounted LEAP fares that would be far higher otherwise.

Leap is great in and outside of Dublin.

It could definitely be a lot better though, I'll grant you that.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the improvements coming over the next 2 years that they've hinted at as they finally seem to have a handle on the many IT issues due to the way the systems have been built out up to now

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120074204#Comment_120074204

Your first line is a bit a of an oversell...

From Irish rail FAQs "The Leap Card can be used for rail travel between stations within the 'Short Hop Zone'."