Prime Time housing debate: Eoin O Broin vs Darragh O'Brien

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606347#Comment_118606347

Yes, in my opinion gullible would be a good description. Housing is a much more complicated problem that it is made out to be by some on here. We had a property crash, the state was massively in debt and we had very high unemployment until only 6 years ago or so, it was still 10% in 2015. I will trust my own instincts with respect to SF, they have served me well so far. Thankfully I am not sitting around waiting for the state to do something to change my situation. That would be the worst situation to be in.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606390#Comment_118606390

neither am I - yet I am a SF voter with a well paid job and a house etc. Gullible are those who keep voting in the same idiots. brings me right back to my original point.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606405#Comment_118606405

I am not particular concerned about a SF government by the way. I don't think very much will change. Any political party here finds it impossible to think long term as the electorate doesn't reward it, it is always about the immediate easy option. I think the most likely outcome would be more of a focus on providing housing for those waiting on social housing. Eoin even mentions the state building AND purchasing housing to this end in the interview. So, if this happens and he is competing with FTB, there will be a fair bit of negative news around that and they might need to row back on the social housing promises a bit or entirely (easy option). They will be unable to increase the number of houses built in any way as the state does not build houses, it hires people to do it and the people able to do that are already busy.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606328#Comment_118606328

No, that's a deflection from my point. You are in a housing discussion thread talking about the IRA firebombing unionists. And all while complaining about alleged SF supporters saying what ever they want. You are avoiding a discussion on housing in a housing thread.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606549#Comment_118606549

I wasn't complaining about SF supporters saying what they want, just pointing out the double standard. It seems SF supporters can say what they like about government parties, because it is "true" apparently, but are very sensitive to any criticism at all.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606568#Comment_118606568

Maybe its because people want to discuss housing and if they are critical in any way they are labeled shinners so people like yourself can dodge the housing discussion to talk about unionists getting firebombed? I'd say thats frustrating whether someone is a shinner or not.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606663#Comment_118606663

So, to summarise it is fine for SF supporters (note I have not been using the term shinners) to say what they want as they are frustrated, but others cannot say anything?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606686#Comment_118606686

No. If they are going way off topic I'd call them on it. But if you don't like their criticism, maybe defend what they are critical of?

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606724#Comment_118606724

I am not here to defend government parties. I think ministers and TDs are basically sales people. They sell their view to the electorate and hopefully also to the CS/PS (who will actually do the work). I understand that the issues are complicated and I don't think there are simple solutions. In the debate, I think Darragh came off better actually, surprisingly enough. He was at least able to explain his ideas rather than hand wave about refurbs. Any construction by the state will be done by construction companies, overseen by the relevant CS/PS departments, the same as now. These are the same people who bring you the children's hospital for example. The state (employees) doesn't have a great record at delivering things. So, from that point of view Darragh is more realistic, Eoin was unable to explain who will actually be doing the retrofitting etc.

SF supporters are very quick to bring up things like Varadkar leaking the doctor's contract, but very defensive of any criticism of the commemoration of the firebomber recently. I am happy for both to be discussed.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606790#Comment_118606790

Its obvious you're only interested in attacking SF. Which is fine but I'm not sure why you want to do that with people being critical of government housing policy.

I don't bring up FF/FG/Greens and the continued tradition of protecting the child molesters and baby traders in the religious institutions.

Anyway, each to his own.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606296#Comment_118606296

Ill be honest I dislike SF as their policies are populist bollixology with little to no basis in reality, whose default position will be tax people more.

I think they are divise and have no real solutions. I worry about them because they have no real talent beyond maybe 2, and just want to further put us into debt.

I feel much the same about the majority of parties in Ireland at the moment, but feel SF will be worse for both myself and the country.

Also don't think they will be in government after the next election as they will find coalition partners hard to come by (unless FF switch, and sure current SF are just oldschool FF bollix anyways).

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607287#Comment_118607287

Fair enough. I don't know a party that isn't populist. I think SF, SD, PBP and recently FF have a good angle on how to turn around the FF/FG crisis by building our own. We cannot continue as is. Maybe the well of tax payer money drying up has FF changing their tune of late.

I see they are looking at doubling the €100 household credit. Populist?

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607302#Comment_118607302

I do agree on the populist bit, but I do find SF more so than others. I also found EOB awful on the debate, and he's meant to be v the best of them.

I think politicians actually making hard decisions and not just throwing taxpayer money at it would be great, as said above no long term thinking from any party (look at pension age). Any party that did that would get my vote, but i suspect would get crucified

Fred Cryton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118582860#Comment_118582860

Why would a single person think they could out-bid a couple for scarce housing in Dublin?

The answer for that single person is to look outside Dublin (plenty of very good homes for €300k in Kildare) or couple up with someone to buy in Dublin.

Irish people need to learn to go live where they can afford. In the US, no-one can afford to live in Manhattan, so they don't (mostly).

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607917#Comment_118607917

But when your own government is giving tax breaks to the very ones driving you out of the market, I think we can do better than moving to another part of the country.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607334#Comment_118607334

It is only natural that SF would get a lot of criticism, etc,etc because it is riding high in the polls and may be in the next government. If it is the lead party in the next government it , more than likely , would be inheriting a very healthy economic situation - unless there is another ‘banana slip’ , a number of very severe covid variants, etc. The country is scoring very on most international surveys. It’s rating re borrowing money on the international stage has been consistently increasing, etc

so if SF is in the next gov it will borrow, IMO, as much as possible to do all the things that it is promising - a lot of it is capital in nature - eg housing, health,education, significant increase in staff numbers such as medical consultants , costs associated with climate change, etc, etc, etc.

parallel to this it will have ‘A LOOK AT PUTTING HIGHER TAX RATES ON INCOMES OVER €100,000/year , amend laws as per its agenda, etc and then EXPECT that these changes will not impact on the annual exchequer intake or it might argue that there will be a real increase in intake as a result to pay for the increased expenditure

after ,say, five years of such government, things are going well because of all the houses going up, ‘manners’ being put on those high earners, etc, etc it may get back in for another five years, I wonder then what the health of the national coffers would be.

Would the national income be enough to pay for all the money borrowed to fund the party’s programme on top of paying back the money borrowed re response to Covid.

two issues, by way of recent examples, do not bode well going forward and could have a significant negative impact on the above

(1) the Kerry debacle re treating childrens mental health issues is due to a severe shortage of consultants and this applies to all sections re consultants in the HSE. The main reason is due to unattractive salaries but other improvements are also needed and all these cost very significant finance

(2) a recent report on the stock of houses being rented by Dublin City council stated that there is circa €30 million due in outstanding rent and that it is outstanding from amongst the ‘higher earners’ within the cohort. So the actual return from increasing the social housing stock should factor in this ‘behaviour’

mm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607917#Comment_118607917

There should be enough diverse types of quality property available that the single person and the couple are not both competing for the same 3 bed semi.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118609230#Comment_118609230

The problems is that the left-wing parties including Sinn Fein who have controlled DCC for most of the last decade have blocked high-rise development. Just look at them losing their sh!t over the O'Devanny Gardens development. Where Sinn Fein haven't been able to block, delay or frustrate the building of homes, they have delayed it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-has-opposed-building-of-6-000-homes-across-dublin-says-fine-gael-report-1.4602893

"Sinn Féin has voted against 6,000 homes across different developments in Dublin"

Happy to keep the discussion on housing, would love to see a pro-SF poster (including those that claim not to be a SF supporter but never offer anything other than a SF soundbite) to produce any evidence of Sinn Fein on a Dublin council leading the housing agenda.

Varik

Used to live in an old former council estate, the amount of houses that were going for crazy money and then half the price again or the same again going to do them up. Seeing some that are going ( in todays market) for prices you'd expect but then the same happens.

Knocking half of the pretty standard old pebble dashed semi Ds we'd all know and putting up glass mansions.

Same as with apartments, the likes of SF don't seem to realize that for every luxury development they block that those people don't go anywhere. They show up elsewhere outbid everyone, and at worst they've to wait a few years to add the second master bathroom if the initial price got a bit high.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594652#Comment_118594652

Unfortunately the younger generation are brainwashed by SF who have a strong social media presence and play populist politics on every issue.

It's not so much brainwashing as indifference to how politics works and no interest in going beyond the headlines. SF have completely mastered the soundbyte with their constant keenness to make representatives available for comment and a ready supply of damning clichés of government parties.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118609844#Comment_118609844

You fail to mention that it is Fine Gael claiming that SF are blocking these developments. Thats right, its only a claim!

Sinn Fein response:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/sinn-f%C3%A9in-rejects-fine-gael-claim-of-resistance-to-more-homes-1.4603748

Sinn Féin rejects Fine Gael claim of resistance to more homes

Ó Broin says party opposes ‘sale, gifting or transfer of public land to private developers’

To summarise some of the difficulties with those developments:

1. 60 per cent the homes there will sell for more than €400,000 and the deal supported by Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil allows the developer 10 years to build them. 
2. Mr Ó Broin also said the O’Devaney Gardens project was passed two years ago “and not a brick has been laid”. He insisted that “nowhere in Dublin City, South Dublin, Fingal and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council have Sinn Féin councillors or council groups voted against proposals to build homes”.

technocrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118610992#Comment_118610992

Its a FACT not a claim, here is some evidence to back it up:

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/northside/mary-lou-mcdonald-among-objectors-to-1600-apartment-build-to-rent-development-in-her-dublin-constituency-40802647.html

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118611541#Comment_118611541

Well, Mary Lou is not the only one who has objected to that development. It exemplifies everything that is wrong with Government Housing Policy.

1. Its a build to let development owned by a US venture capital fund.
2. It by-passed planning with DCC (who are also objecting to it) and was approved by An Bord Planala under the Strategic Housing Development Government plans. This process is meant to be repealed by the Government who are dragging their heels over actually doing it (presumably because they just want to shout that SF are blocking houses being built!) There have been several court cases over it because of its exclusion of local authorities in the planning process.
3. There is no affordable housing being built there. The 540 Studio apartments (38sqm) will cost €1500 (33% of development). Rents for 1 bed and 2 beds will be higher. There is a total of about 1600 high rise apartments (8 stories high) being built.

Architecs have described the development as a 'high rent ghetto'. Frank McDonald is losing his rag over it. Mary Lou (whose constituency it is in) is merely looking out for her constituents who are all opposing it.

Read all about it here and don't make the same mistake of trying to defend the indefensible.

https://www.thejournal.ie/drumcondra-rental-units-5597489-Nov2021/

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118611541#Comment_118611541

What is absolutely shameless about the objection from Mary-Lou is that she is doing so because "it will only further exacerbate the housing crisis". It tells us something when a political party is saying that building 1600 dwellings will exacerbate the housing crisis.

Be honest. Sinn Fein want this development blocked because they are afraid that the government might actually make the housing issue better over the next few years.

The only way is up for development. We all know this.

Brucie Bonus

All the support leaving FG must be voters growing younger.

Can't be because of over a decade of crises, certainly not.

Spanish Eyes

SF's time has come, like it or not and I for one cannot wait for them to move from their "hurler on the ditch" approach to Senior Hurling. Should be an interesting transition for them to enter the real world I reckon, I look forward to the miracles to come.

technocrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612058#Comment_118612058

Leave the debate of the pros and cons of this development aside, do you want to now retract the above statement you made otherwise it makes you look foolish:

"You fail to mention that it is Fine Gael claiming that SF are blocking these developments. Thats right, its only a claim!"

PopePalpatine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612058#Comment_118612058

Why is Frank McDonald's opinion any more relevant than any other pension-age NIMBY?

Fred Cryton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118610992#Comment_118610992

€400k is plenty affordable in Dublin for a working couple.

SF will object to anything which doesn't immeidately magic up new free homes for their welfare class voter base. They couldn't care less about the private buyer.

Who are these people voting for SF? They are literally blocking housing left right and centre and their housing spokesman is a student politics spoofer with no real world experience and fantasy land ideas.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612191#Comment_118612191

Retract? What? Sinn Fein couldn't block this development because it didn't go for planning through the normal channels/Dublin City Council. It was pushed through by the Government and people were not allowed to comment on the development.

That is shameful of the Government to impose such a development on the local community.

jm08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612399#Comment_118612399

There are no private buyers in that particular development in Drumcondra. Its all apartments for renting. Cheapest rent for a studio apartment is going to be €1500. Good look with saving for a deposit for a house paying that kind of rent.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612399#Comment_118612399

Its great. We need some party looking out for the tax payer and its not just SF. Its the SD's, PBP and that. Also we've had many housing bodies and experts telling government their housing policy is shite.

And as for who is voting for them, many former FG/FF voters going by the numbers.

technocrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612755#Comment_118612755

Retract what you said about SF ‘not objecting’ to new homes, as clearly highlighted in the post, but you know that already.

This is the level of debate to be expected with SF supporters, propagate falsehoods, get found out with proven facts and respond with gibberish.

Anyway I am sure the other intelligent posters on this thread will follow the rationale.

Brucie Bonus

Interesting article on Darragh.

The political turmoil was sparked after Round Hill Capital – a global Real Estate Investment Trust (REIT) – acquired hundreds of homes in two new housing developments that would otherwise have been available to first-time buyers.

Now, with the Government scrambling to piece together legislation to prevent further bulk estate-purchases by investment funds, Mr O’Brien’s past involvement with REITs is coming under scrutiny.

The Minister’s Oireachtas declaration of interests shows that in 2008 he invested savings in a global REIT fund run by Standard Life Assurance.

Until his election in 2007, Mr O’Brien worked in financial services, specifically in the pensions sector with Friends First Assurance. But this weekend, Mr O’Brien declined to answer the Irish Mail on Sunday’s questions about his knowledge of REITs during his period in the financial sector and whether or not he recommended them to any clients.

He also did not answer questions about the reasons he decided to invest in REIT funds and when he became aware of the unfortunate consequences for local residential property markets that can ensue from investing in these funds.

https://extra.ie/2021/05/09/news/irish-news/housing-minister-darragh-obrien-was-an-early-investor-in-so-called-cuckoo-funds

...and considering when FG were only unofficially in coalition with FF, their housing advisor, now TD, was/is married to the then head of Goldman-Sachs in Ireland.

We need to address the bulk buying of estates by real estate investment trusts, REITs, cuckoo funds and the State which prevents them being available to first-time buyers. The State should be building rather than snapping up homes from under the noses of first-time buyers who are being squeezed in a vice grips by cuckoo funds and the State.

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612103#Comment_118612103

It hasn't, they won't form the next government

J_1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612103#Comment_118612103

Me too :)

with the end of QE and rates at 4%.

wanna see mary lou battling it out with the troika, given that the debtor always loses haha

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118613465#Comment_118613465

To be fair, rates at 4% would be a return to historical norms, even if inflation will be painful in the meantime to do so.

orecir

The Mom and Pop landlord phrase used by Varadkar and the likes lately makes my skin crawl.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118614240#Comment_118614240

It is a naff phrase but it does sum up that type of landlord, buying a property for a bit of extra money and their retirement. Their exit has left a big hole in the rental market.

Podge_irl

Mary Lou (whose constituency it is in) is merely looking out for her constituents who are all opposing it.

Constituents always oppose any large, new development. Our national representatives need to collectively grow up and tell them to piss off.

Do you somehow think if it was a block of apartments for social housing the local residents would be suddenly thrilled? The local residents don't care that its build to rent (nothing wrong with this either), or that they are "unaffordable". They just don't want anything built full stop. As always.

This is a "pox on all their houses" , but SF bring the hypocrisy to a different level.

rob316

SF election promise was 100,000 homes for €6.5 billion. Absolute bluffers.

The electorate badly needs a proper alternative centre party.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616289#Comment_118616289

Not quite.

This has given rise to the €65,000 figure – by simply dividing the €6.5 billion budget by the 100,000 homes. Sinn Féin housing spokesman Eoin Ó Broin told The Irish Times that included in the 100,000 figure are 50,000 social homes, which, he says, are already committed to and budgeted for under the National Development Plan. So half of the headline figure is to be achieved before the €6.5 billion budget is touched.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/election-2020-is-sinn-f%C3%A9in-s-housing-policy-credible-1.4163859

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118614841#Comment_118614841

I think the current housing minister with private investments in REITs is a bit 'poxy'.

Not forgetting the last FG housing advisor being married to the Irish head of Goldman-Sachs. Although I'm sure private and business life never crossed.....

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616726#Comment_118616726

Ok, so they can build 50k homes for 6.5 billion, average 130k a piece. Still impossible

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616810#Comment_118616810

I'm happy if we get a government that even moves in the direction of building our own above leasing and buying.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616929#Comment_118616929

The fundamental problem is homes being built, you can have ideological views one way or the other on private market vs govt building and both have merits, but right now it appears next to impossible to build anything with any reasonable degree of density. That is the ultimate problem and where SF to be in power and advocating public building they would face the exact same problem.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118617632#Comment_118617632

After over ten years or the crisis getting worse, I don't believe supply is the main concern of any government party. It is no coincidence that we find ourselves in a position were they can throw 'but we need supply now' in the face of bad deals and problems they manufactured over a decade. It's a complete con job IMO.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118618446#Comment_118618446

It is quite clearly not the concern of any party, government or otherwise.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620426#Comment_118620426

political parties are clearly deeply concerned about this, they just dont know what to do about it, and they keep defaulting to their ideologies in trying to resolve it, without accepting, they wont work!

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620455#Comment_118620455

They at least display concern on a national, conceptual level. But until they stop the utterly absurd practice of objecting and campaigning against housing on a local level every single time while pontificating about how they support housing "in principle" then their actions show that they clearly do not actually care.