Mandatory vaccination in Ireland

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448369#Comment_118448369

So at what age in your life did you stop caring about the safety and care of those about you?

Who I am kidding. You can’t answer that question.

KieferFan69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448536#Comment_118448536

Unfathomable that you think underhanded emotional-blackmail tactics like this still work. The world has moved on and you will have to move on too.

sweetie

Have health insurance premiums increased for unvaccinated people?

RavenBea17b

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448096#Comment_118448096

Is this for a Covid related illness - covid pneumonia or covid kidney disease/liver. It is an interesting concept to get people to think about their own personal responsibility to health in general. Not overly keen on mandatory covid vaccination, speaking as someone who has has had jabs, plus booster.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448589#Comment_118448589

We have community rating

MTU

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448589#Comment_118448589

No, we aren’t living in a hitler state just yet.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448589#Comment_118448589

They did at Delta airlines.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448082#Comment_118448082

Why stop with unvaccinated covid patients?

Surely the logical conclusion there is anyone in hospital through their own actions or recklessness etc should be billed the full amount for their stay?

If someone doesn't get vaccinated because they believe that the government and large corporations are untrustworthy and so they do not trust the government programs or the corporations products would there be some responsibility on the governments and corporations to meet some kind of trustworthiness requirement before individuals could be held accountable?

I really hope the counter argument to that isn't that our government and our pharmaceutical companies are completely 100% trustworthy.

sekiro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448136#Comment_118448136

We have 92% of people over the age of 12 vaccinated at this point. That fact that mandatory vaccination is even being discussed with such a high uptake already is troubling.

I would want to know about all the different kinds of people who are not vaccinated and their reasons before deciding on some kind of punishment or method of coercion designed to basically force them to be vaccinated.

Unless, what's really going to happen is that the need for boosters is going to be far more frequent than we are imagining and a lot of people are going to draw the line at, for example, quarterly boosters and uptake will wane.

In terms of being principled I would say you have two pretty obvious ends of the spectrum here when it comes to covid vaccines. At one end you've got the people who think that nobody should ever get them ever. At the other end you've got people who think we should forcibly inject a vaccine into the arm of anyone who refuses.

Most normal people will be somewhere in the middle. Probably in the range of "it's OK for people to make their own decisions" and "people should be encouraged to take a vaccine but not coerced and certainly not forced".

What troubles me is that we never really had a period during this where people were incentivized to get a vaccine. Before the vaccines had even been properly rolled out people were talking about how we might "convince" people who would refuse them.

I booked my appointment to get vaccinated on the same day that my age group was allowed to book. Yet before I had even booked I had work colleagues in calls and emails going on about how people who won't vaccinate shouldn't be allowed to work or go to the supermarket or use public transport or use healthcare and welfare services. I couldn't even book an appointment to get a vaccine yet and people were already fantasizing about how "anti-vaxxers" should be treated. It's disturbing.

Talking about vaccine mandates when we probably only have about 300k people across the entire country unvaccinated right now is a bit troubling to be honest. Feels a bit like a message to people who already have two or three doses to let them know that now they are locked in they better keep getting the boosters or else.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448173#Comment_118448173

No-one is afraid of it. We are just exercising our rights.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448530#Comment_118448530

If obesity was contagious and severe effects of obesity that require hospitalisation removed with a free safe medicine, then yes, you could argue that they should have to pay for any treatment they get.

In Ireland though we don't and won't. Singapore does charge unvaccinated patients, where on the totalitarian spectrum do they sit?

bertiebomber

This is probably meant for the anti vaxxers BUT if it gets through, everyone will be mandated to take as many vaccines as they want to give you, and as many as pfizer tell them to purchase its dangerous territory & while the vaxed think its a one up on the un vaxxed they will actually be fcuking themselves in that victory moment. Buyer beware object to this strongly.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448343#Comment_118448343

I had people giving out to me a few months ago when I noted that NPHET were discussing masks for children and was told it was just a discussion for show but would never come to pass and the headlines about it were 'clickbait'. Then later it did come to pass.

If something is on the table, its on the table. Its specifically been ruled in as a possibility therefore it could happen.

And yes am interested in my fundamental human rights. Why would covid justify dissolving all our rights?

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448758#Comment_118448758

There was actually discussion of mandatory vaccination even before any Covid vaccine had even been given the emergency authorisations allowing them to be provided.

And I totally agree, even as a first step, we need to understand more about the actual features of the (quite low numbers of) currently unvaxxed.

Tbh, I'd worry about this agenda. As you say, voluntary vaccination has been hugely successful here. (Like you, I'm vaxxed myself.) Overwhelmingly, Irish people choose to be vaccinated - and politicians like doing things that are popular.

So bringing in a rule, where you've confident that 92% of people won't be directly impacted, is like a political no-brainer. Great opportunity to grandstand over a strong stance on the negligible numbers opting not to get a jab.

Very much against this, and very worried it will happen.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448639#Comment_118448639

The bar I would set is if a single condition accounts for the majority of ICU occupancy and as a result is squeezing out everyone else who needs treatment. Otherwise you are into the argument for an insurance-based health system, which in itself has merits but is getting a bit off-topic.

I've lost track of how much dereliction of duty the government has done across the board and I certainly wonder what their real purpose is. The only solution I see if for people to bypass government and get hold of peer-reviewed literature themselves, but most have neither the background nor patience to do that.

bertiebomber

One of my parent s had the 3 shots and the dis integration in their health, energy & zest for life is palpable. The other parent is fine i had 2 shots and the second one floored me for ten days the arm is still sore when i lift bales of hay and buckets of food & water for animals. I cant risk any further issues so wont be boostering. I will relinquish the freedom as any pub i enjoyed is closed down for good now & i have streamed all the films that won golden globes so for now i am out and will have to refuse any other shot as there will be no one on the farm able to do the work.

Let's not forget that NPHETs time in power is almost up.

They know the pandemic is effectively over, at least in Ireland, when Omicron tears its way through the rest of the population. At the current rate, we're not that far off.

Then, they become redundant.

In my view, these kinds of "papers" are introduced by NPHET to keep the ball, and their relevance, rolling.

Once this debate is over, fear not - they'll have something else up their sleeve to keep NPHET centre stage, with all the power that comes with it.

Anyone who thinks NPHET are going away quietly after Omicron have another thing coming, as this forced "mandatory vaccination" debate proves.

And I say the above as someone who is triple-jabbed.

We don't force fat people not to eat food to save beds in hospital. We accept that, in a free society, some people will make decisions that adversely affect their health and the number of beds available in hospital.

Up to this point, we've all accepted it. And with COVID-19, that shouldn't change.

The principle is exactly the same.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448480#Comment_118448480

Point is we do. You're just not aware of it. You'll be pushed down to the end of the line for all sorts of things. If you are so far down the waiting list they'll never get to you. Which is essentially the same thing. Only for what they deem emergencies will you skip the queue. Even then you'll be prioritized/or filtered on a number of factors.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448845#Comment_118448845

I know obesity isn't contagious in the traditional sense, but you only need to look at countries like the US, and even here, vs places like Japan to see how obesity can be mentally normalised (the whole be confident in your own body, "curvy" is sexy etc) or things like food portion sizes. It might not be physically contagious but it definitely is at a psychological level imo.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448589#Comment_118448589

It would be illegal to do that in Ireland as is

cheezums

The thing is, there is not one solitary good reason to not get the vaccine. Every single reason given is pure ignorance. It's free, mild short term side effects and is now the most studied, understood, and tested vaccine of all time.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448960#Comment_118448960

it has to change for covid due to spreadability and the high usage of hospital beds compared to everything else.

the is no option scientifically but to have treated covid differently to everything else due to the damage it can do if uncontrolled.

Given the very high uptake, it’s almost like someone is discussing a solution to a problem some other countries are having.

Realistically, this is about as high as it will ever get and you’ve almost 100% uptake amongst the most vulnerable age groups.

The few % who flatly refuse to be vaccinated aren’t likely to be convinced by anything either. You’re down to real hardcore of anti vaccine conspiracy theorists at that level. I know two anti vaxxers and frankly you might as well be trying to have a discussion with a brick wall as talk to them about the topic. One guy just thinks Trump is right on every topic (even though Trump is pro vaccine) and the other just thinks everything is a conspiracy theory. He won’t use an Eircode on Amazon parcels, as he thinks it’s going to track him down.

Tackling some bubbles of misinformation with solid facts and ensuring they are getting to every community, particularly multilingual information, is probably about as much as they need to do at this stage.

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448566#Comment_118448566

No they won't.

Unless it is a troll. In which case they already have.

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448887#Comment_118448887

Anyone not vaccinated now will refuse to the bitter end.

Mandating it would more likely to target those who have not gone for a booster.

An "encouragement" as some might like to describe it.

tfeldi

I think this is purely part of the expected scenario planning. It will be fairly unlikely to ever make it to a proposed legislation stage.

We're signing the children up to this..a life of forced injections every six months..

https://youtu.be/N5dUQjcWQ2s

francogarbanzo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448845#Comment_118448845

What does obesity being contagious have anything to do with it? They're taking up resources due to a selfish personal choice. What's your logic here?

As for Singapore, look up what they do to you if you're caught with drugs and then you'll have your answer.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449332#Comment_118449332

Are you?

Jaysus.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449367#Comment_118449367

Because there's extra protocols needed in hospital for contagious patients which severely limits capacity (on top of that obesity can't be almost completely avoided by a safe effective treatment..).

Why can't you give a straight answer on Singapore? Is every country with harsh penalties on drugs a totalitarian regime now?

FintanMcluskey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449121#Comment_118449121

The thing is, there is not one solitary good reason to not get the vaccine

Precisely.

But its it's not a solitary vaccine.

So far it's been 3 vaccines, and a likely few more this year to protect against whatever variant.

And also it's far from the longest time studied vaccine.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449306#Comment_118449306

I'm honestly surprised it wasn't discussed and dismissed prior to the vaccine rollout, unless it was discussed "off-minutes" (remembering that the story came from a FOI request for the minutes of a meeting).

francogarbanzo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449403#Comment_118449403

It absolutely can be 100% avoided by safe and effective treatment (maintaining a caloric deficit.) I just don't think your logic is there. The vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, but it does prevent hospitalisation -- much like not being obese.

Any country which executes people for drug offences is totalitarian, yes. That includes Singapore.

cheezums

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449422#Comment_118449422

Lol you're some man for twisting peoples posts. I didnt say longest time studied vaccine, i said it is the most studied. Do you know the difference?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449519#Comment_118449519

It's as much studied as can be. But they still don't know what effect it has three years after injection. There's good reason for caution.

bertiebomber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449403#Comment_118449403

the hospitals have underperformed for 30 + years Covid PR is just a way of covering up this fact yet again how conveniant.

bertiebomber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449285#Comment_118449285

Id say you are correct nothing like coercive tactics to actually unite that front of non vaxed this will do more harm than good i think. Not clever despite us not seeing the crowds marching against these rules in German & Austria as RTE for some reason seem to be in a denial of any objections anywhere so odd. Thank god for the internet & twitter as the irish population can see whats happening with out RTE.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449461#Comment_118449461

You can't solve obesity over the course of 3 weeks with 2 jabs, so there's not really a comparison there, you also have to maintain contagion protocols for COVID patients meaning they take up more resources, that's not the case with obese patients (or smokers or the elderly), there is a big difference in treating contagious diseases vs. treating everyday health issues.

You've put the United States, South Korea and India into your definition of totalitarian.

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448082#Comment_118448082

Over the last two years it really has hit home to the Irish people how useless our healthcare system when compared to the monies ploughed into it.

This will be a big talking point going forward and your idea of billing patients won't just stop at Covid - it's time to discuss privatising the HSE. Over €20bln for this joke of a setup.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449719#Comment_118449719

Looks to me like you can't solve Covid with 3 jabs either.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449649#Comment_118449649

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449725#Comment_118449725

Last time it was tried, the politician who tried it (James Reilly) lost his cabinet position and then election, probably won't ever happen now, just more money being poured into it instead.

cheezums

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449616#Comment_118449616

That's where you're wrong though. This is a common anti vax talking point (not accusing you of being anti vax btw). In the history of vaccines if side effects are going to happen it will be within a few weeks of taking the dose. There is simply no good reason to think there will be long term effects.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449809#Comment_118449809

That simply isn't true though. Serious and severe side effects have been discovered after long delays.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449755#Comment_118449755

That's a bit facetious, the hospitalisation rate in the UK overwhelmingly says that you can.

But look, we're back to talking about the obese and everyone else but the unvaccinated being the woe of the pandemic despite all data being to the contrary, a bit of introspection wouldn't hurt (and I don't believe vaccines should be mandatory).

francogarbanzo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449809#Comment_118449809

I don't know if that's true, but even if it is, none of those vaccines have been mRNA vaccines. I don't think we know either way tbh.

blanch152

Mandatory vaccination already exists in Ireland, there is no constitutional or legal human rights issue that would stop mandatory vaccination, should it be necessary.

I have bolded "should it be necessary", as this is a very onerous condition to meet. Currently, healthcare workers are required to be vaccinated (or have demonstrated immunity) against certain diseases such as Hepatitis, measles, etc. There are clear and obvious reasons why this is the case. Mandatory vaccination against Covid for such workers would not be a huge step.

Extending mandatory vaccination beyond healthcare workers to other at-risk occupations would probably be the next step. Other public service frontline staff such as Gardai, firefighters, prison service etc as well as private sector areas such as retail, transport etc. could be where it is introduced. However, I don't think that will necessarily happen and certainly not yet - if it does happen, it will probably be part of a more long-term strategy against Covid.

I think it extremely unlikely that mandatory vaccination will be brought in for the public at large. There would have be a major public health risk - a new mutation with the transmissibility of Omicron, but the death rate of the original virus would be the sort of challenge that might bring mandatory vaccination. As a result, I would be more worried about a scenario arising where mandatory vaccination for all is seriously considered, as we would have much bigger problems.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449121#Comment_118449121

There are plenty of good reasons to be fair. Maybe just not ones you agree with.

cheezums

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449827#Comment_118449827

Such as?

laoisfan

I could be wrong but IF the Government wanted to bring in manadatory vaccination wouldn't they be required to hold a referendum? Sorry if it's been asked/posted already.