Anyone thinking of emigrating?

yer man!

I’m abroad now and own a house in Ireland. Making plans to move back this year to live in it but Jesus the negativity across Boards and Reddit and even the news really makes me consider otherwise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442137#Comment_118442137

Yeah I was disappointed to find that despite my company having a presence in the states it seems the only long-term visa for internal company transfers applies to executive and upper management roles which isn't the path I'm on. There's a semi-loophole where if you do get sponsored to get in then you can work for a different company once they'll do the paperwork. Seems like a lot of companies will hire people already there on such a visa but have much less interest in doing the legwork.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442150#Comment_118442150

You're in the Social and Fun section here, it's all very jolly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442150#Comment_118442150

Me too. Good Government, functioning society, variety here. Why would I inflict Ireland upon myself. There is still a pull but every logical bone in my body says don't do it.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442155#Comment_118442155

Yes,if you look at it from the point of view of the company in the States it makes sense.You have a role and presumably a good few candidates to fill it,do you pick the local candidate or the Irish one with a load of associated paperwork?

Even still,plenty of Irish managed to get grad visas,intern visas etc.

I can't remember the exact details but there was a little known visa at the time (may have been training visa?) Whereby you didn't need a qualification, but a couple of years experience in your field and applied to hospitality and other sectors.I actually never completed one of these for clients but I always thought it would be a good one and open to a bit of wangling if you had some contacts in the States.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442150#Comment_118442150

If I already owned a house then I'd be more likely to hang about. The security would be nice.

I dunno man, the last 2 years have just been so constantly bloody miserable here. Last year while we were doing **** all I sat and watched 135k people in Indianapolis cheer some guys vroom vrooming around. Switch around and see crowds at F1 across Europe. The fact that so much of our "culture" revolves around drinking (and I don't drink anyway) was obvious before but after the last 2 years it's even clearer. I look at Europe and America and see cities nicer and cheaper than Dublin with so much more to do. Hilarious seeing bands selling tickets in Dublin for twice the price of elsewhere. Any time I look into hobbies there's roadblocks to them in Ireland. Want a nice car? Better make a **** ridiculous amount of money. Want a powerful car? Good luck. Want a motorbike? **** you you can't be trusted and have to dick about for 2 years. The low population also just means that a lot of stuff that are hobbies even in the UK never reached critical mass over here.

LapsypaCork

I encouraged both of my children to travel and qualify in a career they can use abroad. Eldest left 3 years ago to Australia and in the last stages of becoming a permanent resident, she works in health care and although works just as hard as she did here, has a much better lifestyle, everything is very affordable and she’s way happier, second is heading away also when college is finished next year. I’m in my mid 50’s, both of us work our asses off and some weeks have little left from our wages if we need to go to a doctor, buy medication etc. Neither of us live extravagant lifestyles but never seem to see any return for our taxes and I wouldn’t like my children to spend their adulthood like this especially if they want to buy a house and have a family.

OP, if it’s on your mind, go for it. Pick 3 places to narrow it down, do your research, always lots of forums online offering help too.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442147#Comment_118442147

Good intelligent reply, worth waiting for

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442191#Comment_118442191

Oh absolutely I can't blame companies for taking the option of someone who's already there in person. It's just a funny loophole in that it's a non-residency visa yet it's not technically tied to the job that sponsored the person in the first place.

Funny enough any time I go off foreign I seem to have no problem getting dates. Maybe I'll see if someone wants a baby. 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442054#Comment_118442054

If you have family members living in the US they can fulfil the sponsor route as well, providing they are willing.

dxhound2005

There is a housing crisis in Australia. You need 13 times salary in Sydney to buy a house.

Housing affordability, meaning returning to an environment in which, as was the case in the 1960s that young people could buy a home in Australia and in the UK for only 3-4 times salary (it’s now 9 in London and 13 in Sydney), can never be achieved in the current conditions in these countries: whatever the planning system does.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442198#Comment_118442198

Yea because the whole of Ireland is based in two counties.

bucketybuck

Its looking like the UK for me.

Its all about the mentality. The British might be arrogant bollocks' but at least they have a bit of push about them, while it is clear that the Irish are nothing but cowards who embrace their own mediocrity.

I have lost a lot of respect for the Irish people this past few years, pissy little event junkies going nowhere and achieving nothing. The government is a disgrace but I don't believe that happens in a vacuum, government is always a reflection of the people and so this country is what it is because that is what the majority want.

What I'm hoping will happen is that the EU will introduce work from.home anywhere in Europe and make it easy for companies to register their employees abroad.

Fingers crossed

NSAman

In home for a few weeks having not been home for 2 years.

a few observations:

Holy crap it’s expensive! I know prices in the States have increased crazily in the past two years but ireland is mental. I have taken out 2000 euro in two weeks and barely have anything left.

petrol/diesel …in a word wow!

housing… I am one of the lucky ones who can afford to purchase a home and did so a few years ago. Now, I am looking at the prices outside Dublin and comparing them to places like Miami (southern suburbs), Dublin prices are on par with majorly expensive places like Miami central, Chicago and suburbs LA…it’s crazy!

wages in ireland seem as if the vast majority of friends are surviving rather than thriving.

tax on everything is crazy. Someone mentioned property tax, that’s true we pay heavy property tax in the US, however, this can be rolled into your FIXED mortgage with rates of around 2.5-2.8%, I Pay 8k a year in property tax, but I get serious services for that. Roads, snow plowing, water, waste collection and a say in how that money is spent…local elections, city meetings etc.

tv tax, car tax, now housing tax, tax on alcohol and cigarettes which is very high. Vat on everything “luxury”…yes we have sales tax but it’s around 7% in most states, some have no sales tax, it’s not 23% of everything you buy outside of groceries.

my partner and I sat down the other evening to ask how we could possibly afford to come home (my goal). We couldn’t do it full time. It’s too expensive.

how the younger generation are being screwed in Ireland is shocking. Rent is unaffordable. Mortgages are unattainable for most. It means they are locked out of starting families and making a life for themselves like we did.living at home with mam and dad is just placing someone’s life on hold.

i can honestly say, I miss home, I miss family, I miss friends, I miss the culture, I miss the food, I don’t miss government, the lack of opportunity and counting every piece of expenditure.

in the States, the freedom for me is not worrying about affording something like I do in ireland.

Ireland SHOULD be the best country to live in the world, but something radical has to happen to stop its brightest future people from leaving to find work and opportunity elsewhere.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442247#Comment_118442247

That was only a sample, you implied 50k a year wouldn't get you a mortgage, 50k will get you a mortgage and there's plenty properties there to buy with it

LapsypaCork

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442231#Comment_118442231

Sydney isn’t the place people head to first anymore, places like Perth, Melbourne and Adelaide have developed a great deal the past 20 years are fantastic places to live with loads of opportunities for careers in healthcare, banking and IT to name a few. Plus, property prices are very reasonable for what you’d get compared to a property here for the same price range.

HalfAndHalf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441055#Comment_118441055

Does your company have a Spanish presence? If not then it’s not that simple, they’ll need to setup a shadow payroll in Spain to pay their Revenue your Tax and Social and very likely be open for Corp Tax.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058226733/anyone-thinking-of-emigrating

There is a rent/housing crisis in many parts of the world, it's just quite severe in this country

Petrol/diesel are high in other European countries, it's to do with global supply (I regularly travel on the continent)

Health care isn't great, but again, it's relative to other countries.

There's plenty to do in Ireland, it's really just a frame of mind. Likewise when you move to another country, you're convinced it's a bed of roses, it's only after a decent period that you realise most countries are similar and it's what you make of them. Economically, socially, politically, there are many, many countries far worse off than Ireland.

All the time, have done on and off for 25 years now (though I'm in NI not Ireland). Places we have thought of going over the years include Canada, Belgium, Switzerland, France and Ireland. Usually places with a good IT sector for work plus my French isnt bad. Thats seriously thinking, as in getting forms / deposits / etc, not just idle dreaming. Problem is its a big step when it comes to the practicalities, living away from parents and friends. Also everywhere has its good and bad points, nowheres perfect.

Once kids appear theres loads of reasons not to go - they dont want to leave friends because friends are their whole world when young, or you dont want to mess with their exams when a bit older, or you're forcing your change on them when they're difficult teens or you're faced to living in another country from them if they decide not to go. Nightmare. If you're going to go the time is pre kids, certainly before they're in school. Maybe even pre marriage because getting two people as committed to the idea is rare enough.

At this stage I'd settle for a 1 bedroom apartment in Southern France or Spain for future retirement lol.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442194#Comment_118442194

Yes you're right about all that but with pubs semi-permanently shut and MUP our culture now revolves around.. nothing at all. It doesn't even revolve around not getting covid since everyone is now getting covid.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118442251#Comment_118442251

The current UK government is the most untruthful, corrupt and self-serving bunch that I have ever seen in Western Europe. As you say, government is a reflection of the people.

MTU

I might emigrate to Dublin go on the dole and get a free council house or social house if you’re posh and be like the rest of them. Working is for fools.

vriesmays

The early 30s are the generation who got helicopters to their communion / confirmation. Zero sympathy now.

Motivator

My time has passed unfortunately. I have dual citizenship so when I was younger a plane ticket was all I needed and I was in the US the next day. Did it a couple of times when things pissed me off in Ireland when I was younger. Quit my job on a Wednesday, booked a flight on Wednesday night and was in a job in New York on Friday evening.

I’m now married, bought a house and the lure of packing everything up and setting sail is not there any more. I think in the next 10 years it could become a possibility again depending on how bad things are in Ireland at that stage. Despite all its flaws, the prospect of setting up shop in a state with good weather and a salary two if not three times higher than Ireland for doing less work is a good draw and I would think I/we will probably end up giving it a go at some stage.

I think I’d definitely like to retire in the US if I have enough money by the time I’m 60 I’ll do it if we don’t move beforehand.

vriesmays

Ireland has the 13th highest salary in the world.

BuildTheWall

I emigrated for a few years to the UK. Nothing mad exotic like Australia, Canada or The States and relatively close to home but I would recommend the experience to anyone. Learned a lot about myself and it definitely teaches you what it means to be Irish.

I really like Ireland but the way it is run is idiotic. It’s sad that people have to go abroad to get the opportunities they need. On paper we are one of the richest, greatest countries in the world but people still have to go to the four corners of the globe to get a leg up.

Voting in left wing politicians and parties will not fix any of the problems (it’ll exacerbate them) It’s just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443473#Comment_118443473

Yep, Because 11 year old kids rent choppers regularly, nothing at all to do with the generation that went before them

B2021M

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443699#Comment_118443699

I think the point is that they might end up with higher expectations as a result?

Arthur Daley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118440976#Comment_118440976

Ireland is about as conservative as Cuba. But without the health system. Or the sun.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443725#Comment_118443725

Yea, and my point is that it's the fault of the morons that raised them

Father Hernandez

My better half and I have been toying with this idea for a couple months now.

Both working/living in Dublin, rent is €1,600 and our jobs pay well.

Being from Dublin, I want to live in Dublin. Friends/families/sports clubs/hobbies, etc all revolve around living here. We've spoken to a mortgage broker and basically told no chance for what we are looking for. Honestly, it's nothing huge or anything, we're practical people.

Quite disheartening. Everything is getting so expensive right now, weather can be miserable. Ireland has its beautiful spots but we found a night or two away down the country, we get fleeced just to have a roof over our heads. I find Ireland has become progressively worse and towards a nanny state, I don't see how it will get any better right now either. Parties in power come across as dishonest, crass and unwilling to give a shít about anyone but themselves. Oppositions seem worse. Serious lack of hope.

Somewhere in the EU is our plan but nothing concrete right now. Be interested to hear where others are thinking and if it is actually viable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441525#Comment_118441525

Go to Mexico and walk over the border. Or if you want to do it in style, get a horse and ride over the border into Tejas. Once over, sell the horse and order an uber to wherever you want to go. Job done.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443725#Comment_118443725

Maybe "they" (I don't know anyone who had a helicopter for their communion) had the super high expectations of not graduating into an economy with 15% unemployment. Crazy bastards. :P

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443684#Comment_118443684

Ireland's core problem is size. It limits opportunity. Plus, life on a small island nation is not for everyone, reagrdless of how the place is being run or how wealthy it is.

_Kaiser_

If I was in my 20s and had no ties then yes, I'd be gone. However at double that and with a pre-teen child I'm stuck here but I am increasingly frustrated and disillusioned by what I see:

• The housing crisis. Stupidly I didn't take the "Free Money" in the Tiger years because I worried about what would happen if I couldn't pay off 250,000 on a <30k salary or the dole if I lost my job (which I did in 2009 - little did I know I could have just cried poverty and "they made me do it", paid a fiver a week and kept the house!) so I'm stuck renting. I have a decent landlord and a good rate at the moment but no security and I'm watching similar houses be sold to the council (2 on my row) and social tenants installed. My taxes are subsidising this when I can't afford a place myself as a single income earner
• The reaction to Covid. Forgetting lockdowns and restrictions for a moment, I'm talking more about the attitude of people that it's brought out - the virtue-signalling and curtain-twitching, the attacking any opposing viewpoint, the fear and blind compliance.. it's like the days of the Catholic Church all over again!
• In a similar vein: the way Irish society has soaked up the absolute worst of social media - particularly America's culture wars/identity politics and "with us or against us" mindset on a whole range of issues. Take immigration as an example - a serious issue that will affect this country for generations to come and in a time when we can barely run the State we have, but if you question the approach you're immediately denounced as "racist" and ignored - or worse, penalised in the real world. Things like the latest outcry over something as trivial as "Operation Transformation" being discriminatory against "people in a larger body" (direct quote from the petition - WTF does that even mean?) and the associated "cancel culture" crusade etc.
• The Government. Thanks to a series of weak but vain Taoisigh (Kenny, Leo and Micheal Martin in particular) we've had an even-more-ineffective-than-usual series of Governments, tinkering at the edges on the "feel good" issues, but ignoring (or making worse!) the real problems this country faces in housing, health, cost of living generally, wealth inequality etc. We'll end up with SF next as a protest vote and that will be an outright disaster for any normal hard-working stiff in this country

I could go on, but the short version is that I no longer recognise this country in many ways and certainly don't feel welcome here in many respects. I probably will try to move somewhere else when the little fella is old enough to be doing his own thing, because I don't see any signs of things turning around here in the meantime - if anything the problems are likely to increase and accelerate!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443765#Comment_118443765

Have only visited and a couple of friends were there for a while, but if Ireland is the long-term plan then central Europe is worth checking out. Beautiful historical cities, low cost of living but access to everything and more than in Ireland. Cheap enough so you can rent and save proper money to buy in Ireland within a few years.

I'm aiming for the States but just below that on my list is Spain (northern part, I couldn't handle the heat) because there's cheap flights and the ferry is also an option for moving. Bit less to do that other bits of Europe but weather apparently makes up for it. Then Central Europe.

I’ve lived in plenty of parts of Europe on and off and some of the comments here are a tad “grass is always geeener” or seem to imagine the pandemic isn’t happening anywhere else.

Spain has a lot going for it - but you’ll rapidly find the salaries are too low, the tax isn’t low, accommodation (relative to income) is expensive and it’s extremely bureaucratic - try going self employed! It’s like the tax authorities immediately assume you’re trying to defraud them. A friend of mine trying to get a small business off the ground had to hire a full time administrator (in a business with 4 employees) and was audited 3 times in one year without any justification.

France - tax, tax, tax and more tax on the tax and painful bureaucracy. The weather’s fine in summer. However, for most of the country the place turns to a west of Ireland like Atlantic mush in the winter, only without the colour and vibrancy. A lot of rural areas are so dead you’d wonder if they were abandoned and the cost of living is high and rental etc is soaring in large, attractive regional cities like Bordeaux, Nantes, Lyon etc. Paris was always nuts. There are beautiful places but, they’re expensive. Also rural France in my experience is a lot more conservative than 2020s rural Ireland.

Belgium - bureaucratic nightmare at times and nanny state. The police came around to check your name is correctly spelled on the door bell. You can’t put your washing machine on after certain times. If you’re self employed, eg working freelance, you have to collect VAT numbers for every bill paid to you (no matter how small) and produce all of them on OCR forms to their Revenue. Very high tax. Accommodation is a bit cheaper, but cost of living is high. Mobile phone service as very expensive compared to Ireland (or practically anywhere else.)

As for the USA, it’s fine as long as you never ever engage with politics or turn on the news. Seems to be one endless culture war and some of the southern states are nuts. Would you really want your daughters growing up in Texas wheee they could get pregnant and possibly sued / criminally charged for seeking an abortion? Or have to deal with receding LGBT rights driven by religious fundamentalists? We got away from that stuff in Ireland but they seem to be going backwards in certain US states.

Ireland’s main problem is housing costs are getting totally out of hand, particularly in Dublin due to lack of supply, rapidly growing population and probably a hang over from 2008. If you’re not in Dublin particularly the rental market, it’s not that bad.

Pressure from speculators is a thing in a lot of places at the moment too. Dublin (and Cork to some extent) are feeling that. You’re seeing it in French cities, in Canada (far more than here), in popular parts of the USA, New Zealand and Australian prices are also absolutely soaring. That’s being driven by a broken global financial system and money flowing into bricks and mortar because returns on other steady investments, bonds and interest rates are so low it’s ridiculous. So that money has flowed into real estate.

My sense is we’re due a fairly large global financial bang from COVID. There’s an unreality at the moment and something is going to give eventually.

Regarding Irish health. If you analyse the figures, around 33% of our health spending is probably social spending that we classify as health because of historical responsibility of health boards for many of those areas.

We don’t pay anything like the amount of social charges levied on the continent, and VHI etc is relatively cheap. My view of it is Ireland lives in cloud cuckoo land on health. We aren’t willing to pay for a proper system, but we aren’t willing to analyse or discuss the true costs, or the possibility of very serious reform like moving to a continental style universal insurance model, so the circus rolls on and on and on. That’s definitely a big disincentive to living here.

The plus sides for me: It’s very open minded, liberal, live and let live and socially progressive as a 2020s society. There are good employment opportunities, with decent income. State services are very pro enterprise and things are accessible. In normal times vibrant cities and towns, increasingly interesting foodieness that isn’t locked in some fixed tradition (France, Italy etc). It’s very active, artsy and people seem to get involved in a lot of things.

You can have a good quality of life and if you want access to sunshine, it’s not far away and it’s cheap to get to. You also don’t have to live in Dublin.

I think one other issue if you’re in a place your whole life you don’t engage with it the same way as seeing it with fresh eyes. New places are exciting and you don’t initially see any of the cracks. Old places - you see everything, including the annoyances of politics etc

YellowFeather

It’s a good question.

I’m living in Germany at the moment, but, as I am working remotely, I could technically be anywhere in the world. And my projects and sleep patterns are weird anyway.

Where to go!?! Somewhere sunny and with an ocean or sea and preferably with English speaking people.

Malta is surprising expensive, so any ideas much appreciated!

I’d say it’s very unlikely that you’ll be able to do that as it would just result in people remote working, cherry picking systems - social services and infrastructure etc would fall apart due to lack of tax revenues.

As it is, you can’t even do that between states in federal countries in a lot of cases.

As idyllic as it might be if you could do it, it isn’t likely to be politically feasible without a significant base somewhere.

That being said, the large corporations and super wealthy already do it with tax avoidance structures.

The EU in particular is odd as there are huge cost and income discrepancies between countries, south to north and east to west.

It could ultimately just balance those out though and you’d find things would eventually even and the income and cost gaps would vanish.

Prominent_Dawg

100% agree op.. the prices for the standard of living are disgusting.. I recently read an article about a 25 year old who returned home from Australia with cancer, only to be completely let down by our health system, which I think is the one thing you would like to think you could rely on in a time like that

growleaves

'The plus sides for me: It’s very open minded, liberal, live and let live and socially progressive as a 2020s society.'

It isn't live and let live. You literally couldn't walk down the street for the most of the last two years without idiots having conniption fits "Why can't you just STAY AT HOME???"

Now you have to be tucked up indoors by 8pm - its too cold/wet to find a workaround. You're free to watch TV, go on the internet or have an abortion.

You're selling Ireland to people as the epitome of political liberalism, but less liberal societies have more freedom because they aren't as fully beholden to progressive rule-makers as we are.

Quags

I am in the same, think the last 2 years has kind of woke me to go "do I wish to stay in this country and always have the what if"

We have offices in UK & Germany but at the moment no roles for me to transfer to(I work in IT), The Uk is more appealing out of both. Have looked at Holland & Portugal but not to much, would be interested to hear if anyone had worked in those countries

Mister Vain

If I had a cushy job that could be done on a laptop I'd do it. The only other option is to become a crypto millionaire and move to Portugal.

road_high

I’m probably too old now (late 30s) and in a reasonable job but if I was ten years younger I’d definitely consider. This could be such a great country but it’s abysmally run. It’s run for vested interests and the connected rather than any fairness. The amount they take in taxes here is chronic considering the level of public services in return for same is so poor.

Larbre34

The grass is always greener lads.

If a few pence on your six-pack and on your tank of diesel, which the whole World are paying more for, is all you're looking at to decide whether or not to leave the country for good, I'd suggest you need to have a long hard think.

Yes homes are too expensive and too scarce in Dublin and sure plenty in the health service needs improving, but I challenge you to pick any destination you might migrate to and not find a whole different set of prevailing issues that irritate their domestic population.

Ireland is one of the wealthiest nations on Earth. It offers among the best opportunities for education, high value jobs and careers and environments for nurturing small and self-starter businesses anywhere in the western world. We have a fantastic clean and healthy environment with moderate weather and the best agri-food produce maybe in the World too. We have the most progressive free social conditions of anywhere you could go and global best welfare supports for our older people and those between jobs or raising families.

Want to suffer in an epidemic of petty crime? Move to Portugal

Want to suffer at the hands of a corrupt and inept local and regional government system? Move to Spain

Want to pay €25,000 in health insurance premiums for your family of four and hear tales of their weekly active shooter drills at school? Move to America

Want to exist in a live-to-work culture with a stress induced national crisis of suicide? Not to mention demographic collapse ruining the pensions model? Try Japan

Want to try the front row seats of climate change? Book a visa to Australia

Be bored out of your bin and frozen solid seven months of the year? Canada...

A faded wreck of self-destructive hubris and long dead imperial glory spiraling into economic depression? Britain....

Or....

You could stay in Ireland, work hard, play hard and give just a little of your time to get active in your community to change the things you don't particularly like...

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444064#Comment_118444064

Sunny, ocean, english speaking, cheap - pick any two. NZ ia expensive for housing, but It's still my intended destination.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444014#Comment_118444014

That's a really good post.

A lot of people here complaining about the tax take but in reality we have a lower tax rate than other European countries.

Just on the US, it's big enough and diverse enough that you don't have to worry about many of the things you mentioned.

Places like Massachusetts and the east coast in general are not a whole lot different than Ireland culture wise.

It's a good place if you are young and want to make good money but if you are thinking of setting down there Ireland is a lot simpler, a lot of decisions about where to buy depends on local property tax, the quality of the school systems, etc.

road_high

It’s not so much the high tax take- it’s what the people paying into it actually get back ie for me personally, virtually nothing. Dental check up and scale per year is about it really for me.

I can’t abide the nanny state and Ireland is very much one now. It’s relentless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444014#Comment_118444014

On healthcare, we do spend properly. The HSE budget is the same as the NHS budget per capita (and we've a younger population so it "should" be lower). We pay plenty but get nothing back.

Despite spending the same as the Brits on the public system, 46% of the population feel it necessary to have health insurance on top of that. And all your prescriptions on top of that.

Someone I know went to France a few months ago. Trip got off to a pretty bad start, her bag slipped as she was taking it from the overhead bin on the plane after landing and hit her eye. Long story short, as a tourist went to the first medical centre she found, under 2 hours later she'd seen a consultant, got eye drops and a bill for €27. Took the same person weeks of asking around (friends and relatives, because calling directly were instant "no"s) to just get on a doctor's books in our home town.

Again, someone on average wage is paying around 300 towards healthcare, plus insurance (let's lowball it at 100) plus tax on insurance so about €450 a month. What do they get for that? Well after claiming back it's "only" €30 to see a GP, "only" €100 for consultant and prescriptions aren't covered.

There's no defending our healthcare system money is absolutely poured into it from state funding for no return. We have parallel systems where it only makes logical sense for a worker to make the public system worse so they get more customers privately. And the state helps them out with doing it. It's an indefensible shambles.