F1 2022 thread - see post 1 for rules

thefa · 15-11-2022 10:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119878842#Comment_119878842

I think he’s been given a fair chance with 4 years. Given Ferrari’s resources, I don’t think you can say they’ve achieved much in that time.

This year they had a chance with the reset and were in the fight early season but fell off badly. Being beaten by the Red Bull is fine but possibly losing second to Mercedes after the start is a bit of a collapse.

Team as a whole could do with being more ruthless and decisive so I think if it is his time to go or be demoted, it might be for the best.

thefa · 15-11-2022 11:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879145#Comment_119879145

The telemetry is one thing and as ever won’t say whether the driver meant it or not. I still find the situation so illogical.

-Perez, a very reliable team player, deciding to make a stand while locking in a Ferrari 1-2 and risk his car while he’s at it

-Max waiting for payback for 5 months to deny Perez 6th place and harm relations

-An incident from 5 months ago now getting scrutinized as if no one cared at the time

I’d like to think there’s more to it as it’s all a bit pathetic. A bit of disharmony in RB will do no harm to the 2023 title with Mercedes’ trajectory.

El_Duderino 09 · 15-11-2022 11:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879457#Comment_119879457

Who knows? Max hasn't actually said why he did it. It could be payback for a real or imagined insult, or he might see himself as the main man and above giving up a place for another driver. We'll probably never know for sure unless Max tells us.

quokula · 16-11-2022 12:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119877767#Comment_119877767

They've had the biggest budget other than Mercedes for years, and they had a completely free run at the new regulations, sacrificing their last couple of seasons to focus on this year's car while the other top teams were fighting tooth and nail for the championship.

Developing the joint fastest car this season really ought to have been a bare minimum expectation. I personally had them pegged as favourites long before pre-season testing kicked in.

But to have had that car and to be in a position where they might not even secure second in the WCC is disastrous. Binotto should have gone a couple of years ago - in reality he should never have been promoted into a position that's way out of his expertise and out of his depth to begin with. They were on a better trajectory under Arrivabene, they really stalled out and went backwards under Binotto and only the opportunity presented by the new rules this year allowed them to get back into a competitive position, one that they've then squandered badly.

I've always had a positive impression of Frederic Vasseur, he's done well at Sauber and was hugely successful in GP2 so I could see him move the team forward, though it's certainly a risk as he's never been in a position with anything like the level of pressure and expectation of Ferrari.

quokula · 16-11-2022 12:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119879457#Comment_119879457

Yeah there is zero chance that was intentional, it risked damaging the gearbox and only served to help out Ferrari more than anything else, there was just no reasonable motive for it. It does seem like something that's just been stirred up by the media without any basis whatsoever, Verstappen hasn't mentioned it at all and he was clearly really happy for Perez at the time and there hasn't been the slightest hint of any suspicion in the months since. Whatever was discussed prior to Brazil about whether or not they would resort to team orders, I'd be pretty certain it wasn't this.

If I were to guess I could see it being something much more mundane like a pre-race agreement that they wouldn't use orders because Verstappen is still aiming to tumble records for the most successful ever single season (something that will be remembered long after whoever finished second), and Max took that to heart while the team figured it didn't apply when down in sixth.

It's all a massive mountain out of a molehill of course. Perez and Leclerc both could have gained points in the fight for P2 if their teammates who were both faster on the day and directly ahead donated a position to them, but both were denied which is ultimately fairer all round. Red Bull should have shown the good sense that Ferrari did in making the decision not to use unnecessary team orders themselves rather than placing the burden on the driver.

Killinator · 16-11-2022 01:39AM

It wasnt some agreement talked about before this race, Max said on the radio he had already talked to them about it in the Summer so it's obviously something more substantial

Burkie1203 · 16-11-2022 08:18AM

https://twitter.com/FormulaNetflix/status/1592522357243252741?t=SlL3UuGhVdptNs573fTw_Q&s=19

If thats accurate then no way a penalty should be given to anyone

McFly85 · 16-11-2022 12:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880151#Comment_119880151

What’s great about that view(if accurate) is seeing Hamilton is basically doing all of the reacting to try and move Verstappen. Verstappen looks like he has picked his line and he’s confident that the corner is his.

What you can’t judge though is the reason the stewards penalised Max, which was the speed he was carrying into the corner.

It’s a strange one that looks one way, could be the other.

El_Duderino 09 · 16-11-2022 12:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880964#Comment_119880964

The onboard footage looked like Max was really unlikely to be able to maintain that line through the corner. I thought it was clear he was going to understeer into the road and I thought that's part of the reason he got the penalty

Hijpo · 16-11-2022 01:26PM

Hmmm not sure about that, something looked unlikely to be successful therefor it was clear it wouldnt have been successful?

Unless he actually understeers through space left by hamilton I don't think stewards can confidently apply a penalty. Bit of an exaggerated example but similar to when someone locks up trying to go down the inside and instead goes straight on and into the car on the outside.

antodeco · 16-11-2022 01:51PM

Jesus looking at some of the replies on twitter to that video, really shows the denigration that's come into the sport

JRant · 16-11-2022 03:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880151#Comment_119880151

https://twitter.com/HillF1/status/1592198495125245954?t=5ctv9THoObQv9FAO0ysjWA&s=19

Think the stewards got it just about right at the time. He knew the door was being closed but decided to leave the right foot down anyway. He had a previous incident with Ocon at this exact corner and Ocon got a penalty as well.

Burkie1203 · 16-11-2022 03:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881644#Comment_119881644

Think Brundle called it perfectly. IMO it's racing incident.

Schorpio · 16-11-2022 03:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881224#Comment_119881224

Exactly what bugs me too. I don't know how you can penalise based on something that would likely have happened, if this other thing had not happened. The fact is, that reality never played out.

Either way, doesn't matter now.

Faugheen · 16-11-2022 04:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881644#Comment_119881644

So he's saying he crashed into Hamilton on purpose? Because that's how it reads to me. He knew Hamilton was going to make the corner ahead of him and just decided to crash into him.

Either way, between that and the Checo stuff, not a good weekend PR wise for Max. I doubt he cares, he's still an incredible racing driver and a worthy champion but some of his quotes are just outright baffling.

JRant · 16-11-2022 04:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119881760#Comment_119881760

Wouldn't have really argued with that outcome either during the race. It appears the stewards were at least consistent this time round though and previous comments seem to justify their decision.

JRant · 16-11-2022 04:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882040#Comment_119882040

Reads to me like he knew it would hurt Lewis more than him so just left his car in there. Don't think he crashed into him on purpose, more that he didn't avoid a collision when he could have.

AMKC · 16-11-2022 06:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119880151#Comment_119880151

Really. I think it was Hamiltons fault. He closes in on Max and does not give Max enough room at the corner and that's why Max hits the side of Hamilton. Max done nothing wrong.

Mitch Connor · 16-11-2022 06:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882409#Comment_119882409

both at fault, imo.

Hamilton could have give more room, but Max was doing his usual torpedo the corner and hope the other guy bails out - Hamilton just didn't.

Remember Brazil last year where Max decided he was either going to smash into hamilton or force him off the track?

Faugheen · 16-11-2022 08:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119882438#Comment_119882438

That last one is exactly what happened here, and Max took too much speed and both cars ended up off the track again.

antodeco · 16-11-2022 10:43PM

Looking at it from a racing pure racing point of view, Max dove into the corner knowing he could use Lewis as a brake of sorts. Lewis closed the door a bit too much on Max, but I think Max knew that.

If it was a walled corner, Max wouldn't have tried diving into the corner. I'd say it was a 60:40 fault with Max:Lewis, but I do feel that a 5 second penalty was a bit much.

I'd much prefer if they brought in scales. An issue like that, is 1 - 2 penalty points and no 5 second penalty. The more severe you do, the bigger the penalty.

Would just mean that drivers would pick up far more penalty points throughout the season. But equally, I'd like to see "gung ho" racing.

Faugheen · 16-11-2022 10:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119883588#Comment_119883588

But why is it a 60:40 when Max’s move caused both cars to go off the track?

He wasn’t ahead going into the corner, and the only reason why he was so far alongside is because Max is carrying way too much speed going into the corner. It was the ultimate ‘move or we crash’ scenario and it’s genuinely very annoying that Max makes these moves that he has no chance of making stick unless the other driver gets out of his way. We saw it in Saudi, Brazil and Monza last year. Every time he dive bombs into the corner when he’s not on the racing line nor is he ahead.

Sorry but to say that’s a 60:40 is completely stupid. His move caused both cars to end up off the track because he took at the corner at a higher speed and a much narrower angle. It was never going to work. That has to count for a lot more than 60:40. That’s not someone who was making a clean overtake and just had the door shut on him.

EDIT: Max is well able to race clean, but it’s clear Hamilton is still inside his head and we know now just how petty Max is. He races Hamilton completely differently to he races anyone else and I would bet it’s down to Silverstone last year.