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Looking for stats on % of unvaccinated people in ICU with underlying conditions

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Answers

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Probably. It was a Prime Time piece. so I'd imagine that they had access to the CSO people and would have ran any figures by them before running with them anyway



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭ Richard Hillman


    One thing I find hard to believe is people with conditions, over 50ish, are not getting vaccinated.

    People under 40, completely healthy, not availing of the vaccine, I get that. But over 50 odd. Not a beacon of health. Its not making sense to me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 495 ✭✭ foxsake



    but household wouldn't be held to the same standards as a hospital .

    I'm sure there are measures as reducing spread in hospitals but if the infection rises and ICU numbers shoot up from infection with the hospital - I don't see why society should be carrying the can for restrictions and 9 year olds (albeit a suggestion at the min) wear masks in school all day.

    I don't see the link .

    is he right ?

    cos that's a fierce leap from the 21% and 12% from (5/11 and 12/11) number on the cso

    22% of ALL cases are under 14% - could they take the vaccine ? no.

    for kids being that sick when it doesn't affect kids really , do they have other conditions?

    Is our hero Richard with the twitters pulling a fast one - throw out a random stat with no context and watch them devour each other ?

    who knows.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    1) Why are you conflating "underlying conditions" with immunocompromised. They are not the same thing. Your immune system may well be able to fight off the virus all else equal, but the rest of your body might not be up to the task of surviving long enough to allow it to do so!


    2) Why are you ignoring that simple fact that many of the unvaccianted, even with underlying conditions, would not have caught the virus, and even if they had, would not have ended up in ICU, had they chosen to be vaccinated.


    Let's take another analogy (made up figures). Suppose we look at the last 100 cases of people who died in car accidents. We find that say 50% of them were wearing seat belts and 50% were not. Then we see that 80% of them were driving cars and 20% were in the passenger seat. Applying similar logic to yours, you would conclude that because 80% of the people who died were driving cars anyway, that there is no point wearing a seatbelt if you are a driver.


    (To explain the analogy explicitly for anyone confused: "wearing seatbelt" = vaccinated. "not wearing seatbelt" = unvaccinated. "driving car" = underlying condition, "passenger seat" = no underlying condition )



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Some may not be aware of the underlying conditions. Or it could be something like high blood pressure which they ignore.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,672 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    I'm sure there are measures as reducing spread in hospitals but if the infection rises and ICU numbers shoot up from infection with the hospital - I don't see why society should be carrying the can for restrictions and 9 year olds (albeit a suggestion at the min) wear masks in school all day.

    You seem to be approaching this from a blame perspective.

    Flipping the argument around, assuming that hospitals are applying all reasonable infection control measures, then they are on receiving end of lack of infection control in the community.

    This is an argument I have seen from healthcare professions: "we are doing everything we can but it's incredibly frustrating to see people refusing to take reasonable precautions", e.g. vaccination or wearing masks on public transport.

    Everyone has a moral responsibility to take reasonable measures to help control infection in a pandemic.

    FWIW I'm not in favour of masks in primary school either. Or secodary school, for that matter. Maybe I'm contradicting myself, but why should school kids wear masks when people are drinking and dancing in pubs and nightclubs without them?



  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭ PureIsle


    "The single most effective thing you personally can do to protect others from Covid is to get yourself vaccinated."

    How does an individual getting vaccinated protect others from Covid?

    It seems there is little or no difference between the vaccinated and unvaccinated when looking at infection by, and shedding of, the virus. So I fail to see how anyone getting vaccinated can protect anyone else.

    As I possibly have missed the results of some trial/s on this specifically, maybe you could provide a link to one or more?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,672 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    This sh!t again. You can't "shed virus" if you're not infected, and vaccination reduces the probability of being infected.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    What ever happened to asymptomatic spreaders? That term disappeared very quickly!

    People who are vaccinated are known to spread the virus, and if they're more than a few weeks after vaccination they spread it pretty much the same as unvaccinated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 495 ✭✭ foxsake


    i'm not conflating them

    i was speaking on immunocompromised as that was the topic the minister spoke of . Sorry if there was confusion



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    Ok. fair enough. Donnelly might have done the conflation himself!



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    This cock and bull story - no, the vaccine protects you, not anyone else. Stop trying to socialise personal responsibility. If you don't want to run the risk of getting quite ill from Covid, get a vaccine. If you don't give a hoot about getting ill from Covid then don't or do or whatever pleases you.

    This mad notion that John in Dundalk must get vaccinated because Jane in Dingle might get Covid if John doesn't get vaxed is deluded... and the headbangers on here would insist that John is a granny-killer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    As you were told then on that thread and again reminded of here - I use actual live data to make my point, you using fantasy league stuff doesn't cut it. Your post is devoid of any semblance of reality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    If you want to be able to choose not to participate and you refuse to take the vaccine to help society, then society should be allowed to put you to the back of the cure for medical help when you get it.

    Segregate medical facilities. Put aside 6% of ICU beds for those who choose to be unvaccinated. Because it is statistically a self-inflicted condition. There was a tweet on the other page that 35% in ICU are vaccinated. Given that the vaccinated are about 16x the unvaccinated, then reduce the 65% to the equivalent of 3% (which is nearly 50% more than they should get pro-rated). Or only allow one-in-twelve of those an ICU bed and leave the other eleven in the carpark. ICU capacity problem solved

    We shouldn't be taking resources from other services for other patients (cancer etc.) to waste on the scroungers. If we could avoid that, then we wouldn't need the same restrictions in day-to-day life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 495 ✭✭ foxsake


    interesting point and I agree - too much blame and scapegoating in this whole thing . appears to be an irish pastime I don't see in other countries.

    I was arguing the toss perhaps robustly that if Dr Tony, Paul Reid and Leo* and the rest are scapegoating people - i would suggest they look closer to home and get their affairs in order. Tbh I don't blame anybody in real life for covid - unhappy with the approach and restrictions for sure but not actively attacking people (well NPHET I guess ...but you know what I mean.

    I see you point on moral responsibility and i've heard the common good argument too - but forced jabbing (even by mild coercion) and totally unproven vaccine passports to help discriminate are not the solutions. you have 94% - that from a science view well over a fully vaccinated population - meaning there is malice in the current approach or just incompetence .

    on vaccines - no matter how super they are , you cross a line when you demand people put them in the body against their will.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    You start with junk, then you apply junk logic to it. Are you not embarrassed that you can't understand it still?

    I used your assumptions. Tell me why the "Chelsea Fans" have an 11x probability of ending up in ICU once everyone is vaccinated 🤣


    If everyone is vaccinated, why would 38/88 in ICU come from 6% of the population when there was nothing else to distinguish them from the other 94% which contribute 50/88



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    Wrong. People who pay taxes are entitled to the same health services as everyone else. Otherwise, start refunding taxes to the few remaining unvaccinated people in society.

    You have a chip on your shoulder about "scroungers" and the likes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Who ever said they weren't entitled to the same?

    I said they were entitled to the same. They are not entitled to extra. Pro-rated is fair. 6% of the population get 6% of the ICU covid beds put aside for them and 94% of the population get 94% of the ICU covid beds put aside for them


    Make your choice and accept the consequences. You can't get fairer than that



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    88% of people in ICU have an underlying condition regardless of vaccination status.

    There is nothing junk about any of the data I've used to make my point. You though using hypothetical soccer supporters...



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Man, I'm embarrassed for you.

    Use a different label if the "soccer" confuses you. Call 6% redheads and 94% brunettes.


    The 6% currently supply 50% to ICU (under your assumptions - not mine. The real number is higher). The 94% supply 50% to ICU.


    Your assertion is that were the 6% to get vaccinated, they would instead supply 43% to ICU. And the other 94% would now supply 57%. Even though they are now equal in terms of covid protection.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,144 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    @Danno To make it a little easier for you I won't even use "soccer" or "hair colour". I will use actual names.

    Below is a list of 100 boys (taken from some random list of top 100 boys names but that is irrelevant.) What is relevant is that the first 6 have chosen to be unvaccinated. They are identified by name and their names are in bold. The rest have chosen to be vaccinated.

    Under your (conservative) assumptions used in your example, these unvaccinated 6 will provide 50% of the ICU patients coming from the population (100). The other 94 will provide the other 50% of the ICU patients coming from the population.

    Your assertion is that, if those 6 boys had instead got vaccinated along with everyone else, (Suppose they were initially hesitant because they were afraid of needles but after 5 minutes the doctor convinced them), then they would have instead provided 43% of ICU patients . And the other 94 would have provided the other 57%. You need to be able to tell us why {Liam, Noah, Oliver, Elijah,William,James} have 11x the probability of ending up in ICU just because they were initially a little hesitant. Everyone is equally vaccinated in the alternate scenario.

    Liam

    Noah

    Oliver

    Elijah

    William

    James

    Benjamin

    Lucas

    Henry

    Alexander

    Mason

    Michael

    Ethan

    Daniel

    Jacob

    Logan

    Jackson

    Levi

    Sebastian

    Mateo

    Jack

    Owen

    Theodore

    Aiden

    Samuel

    Joseph

    John

    David

    Wyatt

    Matthew

    Luke

    Asher

    Carter

    Julian

    Grayson

    Leo

    Jayden

    Gabriel

    Isaac

    Lincoln

    Anthony

    Hudson

    Dylan

    Ezra

    Thomas

    Charles

    Christopher

    Jaxon

    Maverick

    Josiah

    Isaiah

    Andrew

    Elias

    Joshua

    Nathan

    Caleb

    Ryan

    Adrian

    Miles

    Eli

    Nolan

    Christian

    Aaron

    Cameron

    Ezekiel

    Colton

    Luca

    Landon

    Hunter

    Jonathan

    Santiago

    Axel

    Easton

    Cooper

    Jeremiah

    Angel

    Roman

    Connor

    Jameson

    Robert

    Greyson

    Jordan

    Ian

    Carson

    Jaxson

    Leonardo

    Nicholas

    Dominic

    Austin

    Everett

    Brooks

    Xavier

    Kai

    Jose

    Parker

    Adam

    Jace

    Wesley

    Kayden

    Silas



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭ Furze99


    I've heard it reported that certain groups are more likely not to be vaccinated. Including those with poorer grasp of English and Irish travellers. It'd be interesting to know if they are over represented in hospital and ICU wards due to Covid. And if so, what is being done about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,672 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭ Furze99


    It'd be interesting to know if the HSE is actively addressing these groups. It's always dangerous to fingerpoint at minority groups...but if the rest of us are doing our bit and they ain't. Well there needs to be a crackdown.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭ Danno


    A "crackdown". As pointed out in the PT article, 1-in-4 unvaccinated are originally from eastern European nations, nations with different attitudes to governments than native Irish people have. And for very good reason too - many of those nations are formerly communist.

    You want to give them more of that style of rule aka crackdown. That won't end well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,319 ✭✭✭✭ seamus


    The foreign-born stuff is interesting. Perhaps we need to look at an EU-wide campaign by the ECDC that offers local information to expats. So a Polish person listening to Polish radio hears an ECDC ad about the vaccine and is directed to a website that contains information in Polish that tells them how to get vaccinated (as well as all the other health measures) in Ireland?

    The 2016 census indicated that just under half a million people were foreign-born and spoke a foreign language at home. 83% of these reported being able to speak English "very well", but as the article above points out, they may still listen almost exclusively to their home media.

    Seems like a strong push to get the message out to them could yield good results.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,672 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen



    Are you suggesting applying sanctions to unvaccinated people based on their ethnicity?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,849 ✭✭✭ Cianos


    The only possible argument left from anti-vaxx point of view to seek to excuse the disproportionate burden the unvaccinated are placing on the healthcare system, and in doing so degrading the level of care for everyone else (ref to cancelation of elective surgeries etc), is that their numbers can be explained by those who weren't viable for the vaccine anyway. ie that their profile is typically;

    John

    Suffering from condition X.

    Condition X excludes John from getting vaccinated, even though John would otherwise probably get it.

    John gets Covid and ends up in ICU and is counted as unvaccinated

    (I believe quite a few pregnant women were of this type, although afaik the vaccines have been approved for pregnancy since).


    rather than;


    Joe

    No underlying conditions

    Unvaccinated because afraid of needles.

    Joe gets Covid and ends up in ICU

    (I believe most people's impression of the average unvaccinated ICU Covid patient would be represented by this type)


    Can the John scenario even explain the disproportionate representation of unvaccinated?

    Post edited by Cianos on


  • Subscribers Posts: 37,291 ✭✭✭✭ sydthebeat


    How does an individual getting vaccinated protect others from Covid?

    congratulations on the posting the dumbest question on boards.ie in years



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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,112 ✭✭✭✭ Graces7


    Excellent point. As one of the folk not viable for vaccination /immunocompromised I wonder about that too. BUT I am also sure that those of us in that situation take extra care to avoid infection simply because we know the danger we are in if we get infected. I certainly do. NB just a thought but is age factored in also? And I do not think the anti vaxxer has a valid point by the way.

    Island Anchorhold..

    islandanchorhold.blogspot.com



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