Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on [email protected] for help. Thanks :)
Private profiles - please note that profiles marked as private will soon be public. This will facilitate moderation so mods can view users' warning histories. All of your posts across the site will appear on your profile page (including PI, RI). Groups posts will remain private except to users who have access to the same Groups as you. Thread here
Some important site news, please read here. Thanks!

Looking for stats on % of unvaccinated people in ICU with underlying conditions

«1345

Answers

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Probably so few they won't mention it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭ Cianos


    Right, not sure about that



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭ bloopy


    It is very difficult to figure out.

    Reports are released on different days and that makes it hard to do a straight compare and contrast.

    There is one report that says that 81.3% of all admissions had one or more underlying conditions. Unfortunately that runs from 27 June to 16 November and it is difficult to know what the more recent stats are.

    I don't know why they don't break it down like the vaccinated admissions are in the Friday reports.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭ Cianos


    Yeah that's it. I'm mainly wondering what % weren't viable for a vaccine due to their underlying conditions. It's become a point of argument from an anti vaxxer to explain the reason why unvaccinated are disproportionately represented in ICU



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,848 ✭✭✭ Cianos


    Swordodlight I'm referring to the official statistics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,500 ✭✭✭ ozmo


    If you cannot find Irish data - try another country in eu. Id say it will be representative of our situation.

    “Roll it back”



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭ Danno


    I posted this comment on another thread earlier - don't know if it goes far enough to answer your question @Cianos but hope it helps somewhat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭ headtheball14


    Just to point out underlying conditions are quite broad. It includes pregnancy, high blood pressure obesity etc.

    There has been a low uptake in vaccines in pregnant women for example as there was initially reluctance to recommend vaccine for them. There was a piece on a young mother in Derry who died recently in one of the papers.

    For why it's so difficult to get this data on ICU and hospital cases, it's easy to link data on cases because the tests are recorded and date etc. Within the hospitals it's messier when did they go to ICU come out go back again. When they were off ward were they ICU or high dependency when did that happen. From dealing with hospitals its not as easy or clearcut as you think and when.you get in to recording clinical data on top it's difficult.



  • Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭ hopgirl


    In work one of my colleagues was saying oh its the unvaccinated causing the issues and their the ones taken up icu beds in hospital. I was like its very easy for us to blame the unvaccinated but we don't have any information on whether it's by choice or if it is that they can't get take the vaccine. My opinion if I had an underlying condition I would be first to take the vaccine. So I would think people with underlying issues would have if they could. Without a bit of context it's hard to know.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    Some different numbers : 97% of New Delhi has antibodies to the vaccine and or Covid.

    In the New Delhi East district it's 99.8%, North East district it's 99.7% Overall 4 out of 11 districts reported 99% or higher. I can't find the vaccinated % but I can assure you it's nowhere near that.

    "Herd immunity" didn't stop the spread. This is "Vaccinated, Recovered or Dead" territory.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight


    The new CSO numbers say, firstly, they’re often younger than the vaccinated people in the beds beside them – their median age is just 52. That’s significantly lower than the median age of vaccinated patients – 61.

    Secondly, they’re comparably otherwise healthy. One in three unvaccinated patients in ICU had no underlying health condition. In contrast, almost everyone vaccinated in ICU, or 97%, had an underlying condition.

    And, thirdly, they’re disproportionately likely to have been born abroad.

    Not sure if you can get raw data here https://www.cso.ie/en/aboutus/lgdp/csodatapolicies/dataforresearchers/covid-19dataresearchhub/



  • Registered Users Posts: 23 Mr shmar


    I would think it is also very difficult to distinguish between a death "due to covid" for someone who has an underlying condition vs death "due to underlying condition, while having covid". But I have seen this distinction is accounted for in the stats.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭ Lillyfae


    That's not broad, they are all risk factors for becoming seriously unwell with Covid-19, right?

    Pregnant women don't stay pregnant forever. People of that age group have only realistically been able to take up the vaccine since June. Anyone refusing on that basis it will be giving birth in the next few months or refused it before they were pregnant so it's not really the reason.



  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭ headtheball14


    They are all risk factors of course. My point is that many people think an underlying condition is someone who is seriously unwell already. These are very common conditions with people living perfectly normal lives .

    When the poster spoke of the percentage in ICU with underlying conditions it should be pointed out pregnancy is one of these.

    The age group who would be pregnant weren't eligible to get the vaccine till late summer at the earliest and there was some conflicting advice earlier this year on whether they should or not so there is a higher percentage not vaccinated

    This was the article I referenced earlier o the young mother who sadly passed away https://www.theguardian.com › nov

    Samantha Willis was a beloved young pregnant mother. Did bad vaccine ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,074 ✭✭✭ mcmoustache


    That's impressive. Really punching above their weight there. I hope the frustrated staff lash them out of it for their stupidity. In this day and age there's no excuse for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,153 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    And I pointed out to you on that thread, your post is devoid of any and all merit

    Let's dissect it a little. Suppose we have a population of 1000. 940 support Manchester United and 60 support Chelsea (It makes no difference what total number we start with as the factors will cancel out below so start with 10,000/9,400/600 or 100,000/94,000/6000 etc if you want).

    Lets suppose that all the Man U fans are vaccinated and none of the Chelsea fans are vaccinated. Those are their only otherwise distinguishing characteristics as a population.

    I will use your other assumptions. There are 100 people in ICU. 50 of these are vaccinated (Man U fans). And 50 are unvaccinated (Chelsea Fans). So 50/60 (=83.33%) of Chelsea Fans end up in ICU and 50/940 (= 5.32%) of Man U fans end up in hospital. In other words the Chelsea Fan has a 15.67x the probability of a Man U fan from ending up in hospital.

    Now switch to an alternative scenario where all the Chelsea fans also got vaccinated. So now everyone is vaccinated. Danno's assertion is that in this alternative scenario where everyone got vaccinated, there would be 88 people in ICU because it would only result in 12 Chelsea fans being kept out of ICU. That corresponds to 50/940 (=5.32%) for the Man U fans and 38/60 (=63.33%) for the Chelsea fans. Can he answer me then why the Chelsea fans have a 11.9x probability of ending up in ICU compared to Man U fans after both are equally vaccinated?

    As I said, the percentages depend on the starting population but the ratios (15.67x & 11.9x) will not. If we take 10,000/9,400/600 then we get 0.53% and 6.33% etc which is still a 11.9x ratio

    (In case anyone gets confused, the "Man U" and "Chelsea" labels are only to distinguish between the two groups. "Chelsea" just means the ones who aren't vaccinated in the first scenario. And it distinguishes those who are vaccinated in the alternative second scenario, but who weren't vaccinated in the first scenario - i.e. the set of people for whom something is different)


    Or to see the above figures a different way, his assertion is that, after everyone is equally vaccinated, the Chelsea fans (6% of total population) end up contributing 38/88 = 43% of the ICU cases and the Man U fans (94% of total population) will contribute 50/88 = 57% of ICU cases.

    And just to tell you the solution, what you would actually expect is that the same proportion of Chelsea fans end up in ICU once vaccinated. Which is 3.19. So in reality, your ICU figures go from 100 down to 53 (or 54 if I'm being generous to you)

    Post edited by Donald Trump on


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ raind


    I would postulate that being Chelsea fans they are disproportionately represented by hooligans getting involved in riots and therefore more likely to end up in icu.


    Otherwise the post is 100% spot on and applying the same logic we would have 100s more in ice right now and thousands more cases per day.

    The anti vaccine version of this logic is that all the vulnerable unvaccinated happened to catch the virus while the vaccinated vulnerable didn’t which kind of gives you a clue as to the level of logical thinking the average anti vaxxer actually uses



  • Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭ Jack_K


    65% of Covid patients admitted to ICU last week were unvaccinated

    OK?

    How old were these people and how many had underlying health conditions?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 30,619 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    @Donald Trump would you mind posting links to the sources for those stats?



  • Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭ foxsake


    Imagine taking an oath as a doctor only to lash somebody out of it cos you don't agree with their choices.

    I presume you hold the same standard for all risky behaviour , like people with Aids or liver cirrhosis . an interesting proposal.

    Anyway donnelly himself said 81% of people in ICU were immunocompromised.

    so you have no idea if these people can take the vaccine.

    Also a large number aren't Irish , who knows if they arrived recently and weren't able to take it.

    there is no excuse for your statement based on a single really broad number.

    While I didn't check the stats myself for accuracy , I saw somebody on social media worked with the numbers (as per Donnelly) that there were 15 people in ICU NOT Vaccinated and NOT immunocompromised. If you want to lose your reason over 15people out of a 5million population (or even 15 from a circa 250k un-vaxxed population) then it says a lot about you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭ foxsake


    this is true also keep in mind that of last weeks number 70% of covid ICU patient came from another ward.

    its is a vague enough figure in that it doesn't state why they were in that initial ward, covid or something else .

    did they get admitted with something else and catch covid in the hospital? cos that scenario is on the HSE not on the often demonised anti-vaxxers (whoever they are)



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    Bit of false dichotomy there, I think. The single most effective thing you personally can do to protect others from Covid is to get yourself vaccinated. If you could get yourself vaccinated (vaccines are available, you don't have medical issues which prevent you being vaccinated, etc) but choose not to then, obviously, you have to accept some ethical responsibility for the risk that you thereby create for others. And I don't think you can absolve yourself of that responsibility by saying that someone else could and should have intervened to protect others from the risk that you posed. Yes, of course the operators of hospitals should be taking steps to guard against the risk of infections being transmitted within the hospital. But that doesn't absolve you of your responsibility for creating the risk of infection in the first place.

    (Not "you" as in foxsake; "you" as in the hypothetical person who chooses not to be vaccinated.)



  • Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭ foxsake


    I see the point and I kinda agree but kinda don't

    I don't think it's right to force people to take an injection if they don't want it and if they don't need it. Your body should be yours and not subject to public opinion - that is an ethical consideration as strong as the one you make - and tbf yours is a decent argument I'm not blind to it even if I'm arguing against it.

    Untimely the individual will suffer whatever risk/reward consequence for having covid or a vaccine side effect. nobody is going to carry you or sit in and comfort you.

    But back to your main point I find it hard to stomach the restrictions imposed on society due to Covid ICU cases by the people managing the hospitals IF the hospitals themselves are the major factor in the ICU cases - now I accept this is speculation based on a broad ranging statistic . I just wish we knew.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,619 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen


    Even if it were the case that people are catching COVID in hospitals it is not necessarily the case that this represents a "failure" of the hospitals, in the same way that when someone in a household catches it from someone else in a household I wouldn't necessarily call it their "failure".

    For instance, someone may admitted in an emergency before they can be tested, or after a negative test whilst they were still incubating. How exactly is this supposed to be avoided? We've seen from mandatory hotel quarantine failures (not just in Ireland but in Australia and NZ) that even when testing and quarantine is used on healthy people who can be segregated in private rooms, transmission can still happen. Now consider a a hospital setting with wards and waiting rooms full of sick people.

    I'm not giving the HSE a pass on this, but I think it is OK to give hospitals and their staff the benefit of the doubt in the absence of evidence of poor infection control.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 30,619 ✭✭✭✭ Lumen




Advertisement