Austria hits panic button.

Squeeonline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190727#Comment_118190727

Depends, but outside of the big cities, under €4 for half litre of a local beer.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205163#Comment_118205163

The vaccine is based on an earlier variant of the virus. The fact that it still offers protection against infection and very strong protection against serious illness is great.

Squeeonline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118190749#Comment_118190749

Among my friends, people are annoyed. They feel they have sacrificed enough for long enough. We don't feel like shops should be closed but understand that bars and restaurants give too much close unmasked contact. Especially the week of Black Friday where many were planning to shop.

The vaccine mandate, we wish it weren't necessary and aren't sure it's even the right way to do it. There's a lot of pushback from anti-vaxxers. One suggestion from a friend was to not have a vaccine mandate but instead only give social welfare, state pensions etc to vaccinated. Getting vaccinated is part of participating in society with this pandemic.

"many" feel that the government is being reactive rather than proactive and haven't an actual clue or plan. Rules change very frequently and it disrupts any plans that a person or business can put in place.

Squeeonline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118191627#Comment_118191627

I don't think so. Kurz is very business friendly and wouldn't have closed shops this close to christmas. That being said, the government has only asked people to work from home and is not mandating it. So here I am, at my desk in an office, doing a job that could be done from home.

I would love to see the numbers about infections caused by shopping vs other places.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205315#Comment_118205315

"many" feel that the government is being reactive rather than proactive and haven't an actual clue or plan. Rules change very frequently and it disrupts any plans that a person or business can put in place.

That's pretty much every government at the moment. Being proactive means hardship without a clear reason or based on what might happen, the electorate don't like that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205330#Comment_118205330

Interesting. Thanks

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205375#Comment_118205375

Surely it's the opposite: they want poor people and pensioners not to die. And the best way to protect them from this horrible disease is by getting everyone vaccinated.

If people need a push to do that, then so be it - as per the mandate measures we're seeing across many countries now.

I see sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205444#Comment_118205444

Yeah thanks I know that's the argument being put forward.

It's just that I disagree with it as strongly as it's possible to disagree with anything, and if this does happen it's probably the worst thing any European government has done in my lifetime.

Squeeonline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205555#Comment_118205555

It's pretty extreme, I'll admit. I'd be ok with it being threatened and discussed but implementation would be a bit harsh, especially when there are many other steps the government could take the reduce cases.

Like closing the ski lifts. Sure skiing is a solo effort, but the partying afterwards, and the cramped lifts up are where the outbreak in europe really started.

Then there was the fiasco last year with british ski instructors basically sneaking in, declaring austria as a second residence (airbnb) to get around restrictions.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205216#Comment_118205216

What people forget is the vaccine were developed against the alpha variant. If we had used traditional vaccine development we probably be only seeing them come on stream now. Flu vaccines have to change every year and this disease is very similar to a flu.

Considering that Delta is away more transmissible and is slightly different to the original infection the vaccines have proved quite resilient.

At present in Ireland it's not the disease that is the issue it's that we are swallowing up hospital resources with unvaccinated people becoming bed blockers. If everybody was vaccinated except children less than half the present beds occupied by COVID patients would be in use.

There are many disease that need yearly vaccinations but as human's we do not generally need them.

In farming it is now quite common to vaccinate for peunomia virsus's and for tetanus and other diseases.

There is a 10 in one vaccines that is used regularly to prevent disease when cattle are grazing. The main ones it prevents is blackleg and tetnaus. Weanling calves coming off Suckler cows are vaccinated for a number of peunomia type viruses.

Dairy cows are vaccinated against a number of virsus with the intention of protecting the calf when he is born.

Squeeonline

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205375#Comment_118205375

That's quite a mental leap. Have you considered gymnastics? By that leap, I would assume you think that the only unvaccinated are old or poor.

Austria has the lowest uptake of vaccinations of comparable european countries. Participation in society comes with responsibilities. People who are wilfully remaining unvaccinated are endangering themselves others - whether it's taking up another bed in a hospital or spreading the disease to others.

I'm also in favour of strict measures to insure that fewer lives are lost, and fewer people have the long term side-effects of a disease that has infected over a million in austria alone.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205555#Comment_118205555

I don't think anyone seriously thinks (for example) that pensions or SW payments should or would be stopped.

But if people are refusing to take safe, effective vaccines, for whatever reason, and by this inaction causing grave harm to others then, in the interests of society at large, some form of mandate is going to have to be imposed. What form that takes is up to individual governments.

I haven't seen any detail of how the Austrians are going to enforce legally-mandated vaccination. Has anyone seen the detail?

Lumen

@Raoul Duke III wrote

I haven't seen any detail of how the Austrians are going to enforce legally-mandated vaccination. Has anyone seen the detail?

In the interview I posted a link to earlier the chancellor said fines would be levied.

No more detail than that.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205707#Comment_118205707

Thanks.

Probably the smartest way to do it. €500 (or whatever, needs to be 'enough' to be a real deterrent) for first offence, a month to get jabbed and then increase the fine.

Increasing employer mandates will probably do a large part of the job anyway.

Harika

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205677#Comment_118205677

For now you get a letter in the post with an appointment. If you skip it long enough you get penalties after February. I read starting with 600 Euro.

A lawyer suggested to link the vaccine status to transfer payments, same as for kids vaccination as this is common. If parents ignore them, they lose privilege and transfer payments like child benefits.

If you don't abide by the rules of the law why do you expect to be treated like you do? Pension might be different to unemployment payment. Latter you lose if you don't actually look for a job. You still get paid but far less.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205707#Comment_118205707

If people are not willing to take a jab them a number of then wont pay a fine.

If they dont pay the fine do you then jail them and confine people to more cramped conditions where their possibility of contracting covid increases?

sounds mad ted.

growleaves

Once you turn something like say social welfare into a bargaining chip it will in time alter how people see the state.

It's supposed to be a social safety net, not a "carrot" or reward for conformity.

As for removing tax credits, you're only pushing people into the black market.

Basically the more drastic the punishment the less identification people will feel towards the establishment.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205754#Comment_118205754

Indeed. The pragmatic (rather than ideological) counterargument to Austria's strategy is that legal action is unnecessary for the persuadable and ineffective for the unpersuadable.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205677#Comment_118205677

Well some are questioning the long term safety, which regardless of one's position on the matter is still up in the air. By definition one can't measure long term safety over the short term and mRNA vaccines have only been in the wild in actual use for less than 18 months. I personally doubt there will be any major long term issues, but I can make no claim to that based on actual science and neither can anybody else. As for effective? Well it seems that's somewhat up in the air too. Yes vaccines most certainly do reduce the risks of hospitalisation and death. EG in the 50-60 age group by around ten to one compared to the unvaccinated. A big number to be sure. However in more big number terms that means that in the 50-60 age group out of one hundred thousand people ten of the unvaccinated will die from covid, in the vaccinated just under two will and of those that die in either group well over 90% will have pre existing serious underlying conditions. Cardiovascular disease being the biggie. So this grave harm is quite small overall. Of course it goes up with people over 60, 70 and especially 80. Secondly while the vaccines do reduce transmission, the current batch of vaccines are pretty "leaky" in that they don't drop transmission below an R0 of 1.

Given the numbers and this pox being the least deadly pandemic in world history, I would be extremly dubious about throwing out hard won human rights in liberal civilised countries.

If this were a new form of smallpox out there the big numbers would be staggering. Out of one hundred thousand around thirty thousand would be dead, another thirty thousand(at least) would require hospital treatment. Vaccination in that case... well I'd be in favour of holding down the anti vaxxers and jabbing them with extreme prejudice. For me it's a question of degree of threat and the response to that degree of threat. .

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205756#Comment_118205756

I'll give you a counter-argument: People who are jabbed will feel greater affinity with society ('we're all in this together') and it builds social cohesion, rather than destroys it. Leaders should be messaging this far more in my view.

Much like in wartime populations. And this is the closest thing to a war we'll ever live through.

Lumen

@Wibbs wrote

Secondly while the vaccines do reduce transmission, the current batch of vaccines are pretty "leaky" in that they don't drop transmission below an R0 of 1.

Well the R0 of delta is supposed to be around 6-8 from what I recall. So a drop to the current estimated R of around 1.3 is an impressive achievement for the combination of vaccines, light restrictions, and general cop-on we have in play at the moment.

Of course some people argue that the vaccines are ineffective and the regulations are ineffective, leaving only cop-on to reduce R by a factor of 5-ish. Which seems a monumental stretch, but whatever.

Raoul Duke III

One thing is for sure (no matter what your opinion) on this Austrian: it is a bold piece of political leadership.

It'll be very interesting to watch from this distance and see how it plays out. And if it is seen to be successful, whether other EU governments will seek to emulate it.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205828#Comment_118205828

It isn't war-like at all, apart from the mental atmosphere which the media have modelled on war hysteria.

The obsession with life-extension for the elderly is fairly recent and would look strange to previous generations. Deaths of the very old would not be a crisis to any human society of the past.

Social cohesion can only be increased if people choose vaccination which is why all the threats, penalties, stigma, blame, pressure and snarling create alienation.

A nod towards a basic understanding of human psychology would be useful, but like so many things it's beyond many.

Mic 1972

There are less and less unvaxxed people around, and cases keep rising everywhere in Europe. How long are we going to keep blaming the unvaxxed for this? It's time to accept that the vaccines aren't going to stop the spread.

Chips Lovell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205930#Comment_118205930

I'd expect that they'll be as blamed for as long as they continue to amount to a disproportionate number of hospitalisations.

Mic 1972

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118205944#Comment_118205944

Ireland is one of the most vaccinated countries in Europe and here we are entering yet another wave

I'd rather have a solution that makes everybody move forward, blaming other people sounds like political manipulation rather than medical advise

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206050#Comment_118206050

If you do not understand what is causing the problem you cannot solve it. Quite simply 7% of the adult population are hogging over 50% of hospital and ICU beds which they would not be if they were vaccinated.

If like pubs and restaurants we decided you needed a COVID certificate to enter hospital that would solve the problem. Would you be happy with that solution. Send them home with a packet of paracetamol if they have no cert.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206050#Comment_118206050

Most people seem to be willing themselves to be manipulated. A pile-on against a small negligible sub-group of the population is safe and easy.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118206124#Comment_118206124

That small negible group are hogging hospital beds and ICU. That means cancer patients cannot receive treatment. A Dublin hospital has to cancel a transplant operation lat week as it had no ICU beds.

That is the problem not rats hat people ate getting infected.

growleaves

Rats hat?

As I said on a different thread, punitive action in this country will just push Central and Eastern Europeans into returning home.

If that's what you want go for it.

Will increase the labour shortage but hey whatever that's only a knock-on effect.