Austria hits panic button.

munchkin_utd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209595#Comment_118209595

+1

They dont completely stop transmission but they do reduce the spread. A vaccinated person has a somewhat lower amount of virus, and for a shorter period of time. A vaccinated person is less likely if not much much less likely to get infected, and if they arent infected then they cant pass on the virus. The more links in the chain which are broken then the harder it is for the virus to spread.

The vaccine also has the nice side effect that nearly everyone who gets it doesn't get seriously ill or die - so it goes from a thing which is lethal to a thing which is an inconvience .

Its also becoming clear that a third dose is needed for longer term protection, and not just for pensioners, but thats nothing new with vaccines and it doesnt make the coronavirus vaccines totally useless like some claim.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209632#Comment_118209632

You can restate it as often as you like, and it won't be any less misleading.

growleaves

'They dont completely stop transmission but they do reduce the spread.'

Now who's being misleading?

Not only do they not completely stop transmission, we're specifically restricting vaccine-only venues in Ireland and the lockdown in Austria has been expanded to cover vaccinated people as well.

The public perception is already that they are a damp squib compared to what was expected and what Martin promised.

Without sterilising immunity everyone will still get covid even in a society with full vaccination of the population, which Ireland almost is anyway.

Nobody is trying to say that the vaccines are useless but a vaccine that does not prevent transmission (even if it reduces spread by x%) is a shaky foundation - to put it mildly - for a campaign of demonisation and exclusion, and forced actions.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209707#Comment_118209707

A vaccine that does not prevent transmission is also a pretty shaky foundation for an immunization strategy. Should not even be called a vaccine.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209707#Comment_118209707

Hospitalisation cases are dominated by the unvaccinated.

When that ceases to be the case then restrictions on the unvaccinated won't be needed.

It's that simple.

And impossible to argue against.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209729#Comment_118209729

That is probably not going to happen anytime soon as we are likely to follow the UK's lead and classify those with two doses as unvaccinated, then three, then four and so on and so on.

munchkin_utd

Indeed, we are all going to catch corona and either come through it or just die.

The problem are those who dont recover (nor die quickly) and clog up the hospitals - and they are mainly unvaccinated.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209729#Comment_118209729

You keep taking one snapshot in time and talk as though it's the definitive conclusion. Nobody is denying that the unvaccinated made up 50-60% of those in hospital at one point. But unfortunately for your agenda, this number is decreasing rapidly. It has already decreased to the point where they have stopped emphasizing it on the news - which in itself tells the whole story.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209936#Comment_118209936

Have you the latest breakdown between the vaccinated and unvaccinated in hospital?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209936#Comment_118209936

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/1123/1262584-covid-catherine-motherway/ .......literally uploaded an hour ago. So, no, they haven't stopped emphasising it. Also, you're being deliberately misleading with your choice of words, here.

"Made up 50-60% of those in hospital AT ONE POINT" insinuates at this being the case at one single stage, in the past. As if it's an anomaly, rather than a pattern.

The reality is that 54% of people admitted to ICU in the last two months were unvaccinated. It has been this way (or worse) for the last year. At a time when 90% of the population is vaccinated, these are stark figures. The unvaxed are outnumbered 9:1 in terms of raw numbers but still make up the majority of ICU admissions. If it was the other way around, the anti-vax brigade would be shouting it from the rooftops, claiming it as proof positive that vaccinations don't work. The fact they are ignoring it (and I include you in this) speaks volumes. You can spin this any other way, but the figures speak for themselves.

Pretty ironic, then, that you accuse the other poster of having an agenda.

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209707#Comment_118209707

Nonsense

Once again, I'm sharing this.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

munchkin_utd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210003#Comment_118210003

in upper austria which is one of the 2 regions which were first to pull a general lockdown, its 80% non vaccinated patients as of yesterday evening.

The title of the article is even "Unvaccinated are taking up the intensive beds in upper austria"

https://www.derstandard.de/story/2000131344305/ungeimpfte-belegen-die-intensivbetten-in-oberoesterreich

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210141#Comment_118210141

What is your point? No one is denying that they reduce transmission relatively.

Do the vaccines give sterilising immunity? Why is it necessary to have early closures of venues where 100% of the clientele are vaccinated?

Also demonisation and use of force are moral choices, no amount of neutral data can make you do such things - you can only decide yourself that forcing people into poverty or imprisoning them is anything other than indefensible.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118209936#Comment_118209936

It's been this way for months.

If you mean since the dawn of time (you probably do) then yes, it's only a snapshot in time.

What were you hoping to add with this? The stats are widely publicly available, every country sees the same pattern, are you denying all this? To what end, what is your aim?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210174#Comment_118210174

The data is not neutral. vaccination not only reduces the spread of the virus (which I assume you think is a good thing) but it also reduces the effects of the virus if you do catch. Which explains the disproportionate number of unvaccinated who require hospital admittance.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210074#Comment_118210074

You know you should read the content of the links before you post them if you are going to accuse people of misleading. That article gives no breakdown of vac vs unvac. It simply says half of ICU patients in Limerick have covid.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210219#Comment_118210219

All data is neutral. It's simply the statistical examination of a phenomenon. You can draw conclusions from it and then if you take a particular action based on those conclusions you are morally responsible for the action you have taken.

There's no determinism. There's only purposeful choices.

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210220#Comment_118210220

So to repeat Wolf359f's question, which data are you using to support your statement that...

the unvaccinated made up 50-60% of those in hospital at one point. But unfortunately for your agenda, this number is decreasing rapidly

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210074#Comment_118210074

I'm not sure that catches it all, though. Just looking at ICU figures - presumably what we most need to avoid. (And happy to see better figures if such exist).

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-19intensivecareadmissions/COVID-19_ICU_Report_16%20Nov_2021_website.pdf

It still seems to be the situation that 80% of people admitted to ICU have underlying conditions, 75% are aged over 45. Even if all the rest are unvaccinated, and they are 50% of the total, I guess this means at least 60% of unvaccinated admissions to ICU are people with underlying conditions, and at least half of them are aged over 45.

How there's still apparently enough unvaccinated folk aged over 45 and/or with underlying conditions to contribute to numbers I frankly can't comprehend.

I think the blanket talk about "younger people" and "unvaccinated" is creating an impression that this is no longer a problem for older people with underlying conditions, when it apparently still is.

And I think there's a point well made above - the vaccine may reduce transmission to an extent. But if we felt that vaccine = transmission meaningfully addressed, we wouldn't be restoring controls over venues limited to the vaccinated.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210239#Comment_118210239

the only conclusions you can draw from the "neutral data" is that vaccination reduces transmission and reduces the number of hospital admissions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210220#Comment_118210220

You really should read the content of posts before you try to tear them asunder. I never mentioned anything in that article giving the breakdown of vax vs unvax. I used it as a counterpoint to your incorrect assertion that they were no longer emphasising the vast discrepancy between the breakdown. They are still emphasising it, as evidenced by that article which was posted an hour before your post.

The rest of my post has nothing to do with that article. Please try again.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210003#Comment_118210003

The only breakdown I could find was this one that goes back to April that I think someone posted earlier in the thread:

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/vaccinationstatusweeklyreports/Vaccination%20Status%20of%20ICU%20admissions.pdf

It isn't worth the paper it's written on as far as I'm concerned. Besides, the burden of the figures is not on me because I'm not peddling an agenda of proportions. Everyone should receive equal treatment regardless of vaccination status. And thankfully I believe this to be the case currently

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210276#Comment_118210276

When I say emphasis I mean figures and statistics, not anecdotes and sensationalist headlines. They have the figures why aren't they giving them to us?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210290#Comment_118210290

So you made the claim that the 50-60% figure was only valid "at one point in time", yet cannot back this up. Not only that, but you cite a paper which puts the figure at greater than 60% for the past 7 months, but claim it is nonsense? Why do you think this isn't worth the paper its written on? It was published by the people with access to such data, yet you are disputing the data even though you admittedly have no figures to back that up.

How do you expect anybody to take you seriously when your entire argument is built on quicksand?

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210290#Comment_118210290

You keep taking one snapshot in time and talk as though it's the definitive conclusion. Nobody is denying that the unvaccinated made up 50-60% of those in hospital at one point. But unfortunately for your agenda, this number is decreasing rapidly. It has already decreased to the point where they have stopped emphasizing it on the news - which in itself tells the whole story.

You are the one making a statement that the number/ratio of unvaccinated to vaccinated is decreasing rapidly, then you should have the figures to back up the statement. As you are the one making that statement, then yes the burden is on you to show where you are getting the figures from.

Otherwise you're just making stuff up for, well the only reason to suite your agenda or peddle lies etc... Probably hoping you wouldn't be called out on the facts and proof etc...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210325#Comment_118210325

You just linked a report that gave you the figures, though, then dismissed it out of hand.......wtf are you looking for, exactly?

Between April 1st and November 13th 2021:.......369/589 (63%) cases reported as not having received a COVID-19 vaccine or were not registered as vaccinated

Edit: for the record, you have a pretty unorthodox definition of the word "emphasis". Still, the posts are there for all to see. The point was made that unvaxxed are disproportionately represented in hopsitalisations and ICU admissions. You claimed that this was a) only true at one point in time and b) declining to the point that the media are no longer pointing it out. You were wrong on both counts. Now you're changing the goalposts and inventing new meanings for words. This is incredibly dishonest, on an intellectual level.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210340#Comment_118210340

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210351#Comment_118210351

If this needs to be explained to you then there is no hope for this debate going anywhere useful. The figures include a period in the height of the vaccine rollout period. Seeing as they haven't given a month-month breakdown of the figures, we can only assume that the 63% figure they give is a worst-case.

If it isn't a worst-case and this figure has increased then it is nothing short of negligence that they haven't notified everyone of this. So I am making an assumption that because they are not being transparent with the figures, the breakdown of vacc vs unvac in hospital is likely lower than 63% and in all likelihood is decreasing very rapidly given that immunity is waning.

joe40

Why do people think the medical profession are en masse lying to the population about vaccines. Every medic in every country is advocating vaccines. Please explain to me why they are lying

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210351#Comment_118210351

No, you are shifting the goalposts adding edits to your posts taking my points out of context. The media are not giving us figures and statistics - they are giving us sensationalist anecdotes, nothing more.

VillageIdiot71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118210412#Comment_118210412

I don't think anyone is saying folk are lying, just that there seems to be a risk of groupthink. So they've a problem knowing what to do or say, in a context where the relevant vaccines seem less beneficial than originally hoped.

Specifically in this context, this is manifested by this concentration on the unvaccinated as if Covid admissions to ICUs weren't still 80% people with underlying conditions and 75% people aged over 45.

I don't know what they think would happen if we increase vaccine coverage in the relevant age groups from over 90%. Would you say the current situation is as predicted by experts?