Kyle Rittenhouse found not guilty

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198401#Comment_118198401

Not just you. You are one of the milder examples. There are plenty wishing death and harm on Rittenhouse for the crime of... not being sent to jail forever for defending himself against violent assailants.

Point understood with the gun. I think it's reasonable to not have minors handling firearms in the street, but the way you worded it made it seem that you though the charge that was dropped because it didn't apply based on the law as it stands should not have been.

Can you repost the link to the video? I missed it I guess and there's a lot of posts to trawl back through.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198225#Comment_118198225

I agree with you, I think he was a bit naive. He should never have allowed himself to be isolated from his group. It was a major mistake, and a sign that he was too young to be taking part in that sort of operation.

I don't think this makes him someone who was intent on hunting people down and killing them however - as many people have been suggesting.

Personally, I think the entire thing was caused by Rosenbaum. A guy who had just been released from a mental hospital, and seemed completely off his head. I think he had a death wish that night (he had apparently tried to overdose on pills - hence the hospital stay). If you take Rosenbaum out of the equation, I think the likelihood of Rittenhouse shooting anybody that night would have been close to zero.

Guns + mental health issues has always been main argument that pro-gun advocates highlight as the biggest problem. And I find it increasingly difficult to disagree with them on this. In this case, it was Rittenhouse's gun combined with Rosenbaum's mental health issues that caused the incident. Most of the time, it's the mental health of the person holding the gun.

Strazdas

I keep reading about "self defence", but it's also the case that in four days of rioting and looting in Kenosha, there were only two fatalities - the two people that Rittenhouse shot dead - and very few injuries or hospitalisations.

It sounds like his presence there achieved absolutely nothing and merely escalated a total manageable situation into one that resulted in fatalities.

kowloon

An issue I can see arising from this is that people are going to start regularly turning up to protests armed, and it only takes one person to pull the trigger before both sides can legitimately claim they were in fear for their lives. If KR had opened fire first then some protestor could have been on trial in exactly the same circumstances for shooting him in self-defence.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198435#Comment_118198435

Well it exists in parallel with everything else that happened. A single court case is not a microcosm of America's racial issues.

The entire thing is an absurdity in my opinion. How it is legal or even right that he was allowed to be there with that gun is bigger than him. But when someone he shot tells a courtroom that he was only shot after pointing his own gun at his head, then you have to step back and accept that there were lots of weapons present on both sides. And legally, too. Madness.

The trial was about one man's guilt and he was found innocent. That's it.

Greater conversation is fine, but there are too many people who want to hamfist their idea of justice into it, where he should be found guilty because a black person was found guilty because of doing similar.

That's not how to do reform. South African white people at 25 years old are escaping their country because of that sort of thinking. I know many because ESL is their ticket out, and Vietnam has been inundated with them in the last few years. This application of "conversation" sounds nice and warm and fuzzy, but no, letting previous injustice cause even more of it is never the answer. You fix the problems, you don't spread them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198537#Comment_118198537

This wasn't a protest. It was a riot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198522#Comment_118198522

If you saw the footage of the city from the night before and consider that manageable, then that's mad.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198522#Comment_118198522

Well I suppose there could have been just the one fatality if Rittenhouse had let Rosenbaum carry on trying to murder him. Maybe you'd have preferred that.

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198549#Comment_118198549

Doesn't change my point really.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198558#Comment_118198558

It does. A protest and a riot are very different scenarios.

Pa ElGrande

For context this happened in the city on August 24th 2020. You can bet many business owners were scared of losing their business and livelihoods. Likely I said previous in a mass riot situation you are on you own, in general there is no help from the state in these situations.

Kenosha: Elderly man, 71, brutally attacked by protesters while trying to save stores, left with broken jaw

KENOSHA, WISCONSIN: An elderly man's jaw was broken as he tried to intervene and protect a store that was eventually burned during the Kenosha protests, reports reveal. Kenosha has been engulfed in protests since the police shooting of Jacob Blake who was left severely injured. 

The man, Robert Cobb, 71, had responded to the Danish Brotherhood Lodge as well as The Mattress Shop after he saw a live video of people trying to torch the properties. He decided to use a fire extinguisher in order to spray some people who were trying to break-in.

source

https://twitter.com/after_theaction/status/1298210964018429952

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198555#Comment_118198555

There was definitely a huge amount of damage in the four days - premises and cars being set on fire, windows smashed, shops looted etc and $2m worth of damage done, but very few injuries at all and no fatalities.

It's only when Rittenhouse shows up with his automatic weapon that people lose their lives.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198583#Comment_118198583

I dunno, I kinda prefer the idea of that paedophile getting shot dead in self defense than letting him burn down a petrol station. I'm old fashioned like that.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198595#Comment_118198595

I'm suggesting his presence escalated the scenes of public disorder into one with fatalities. If he fails to show up in Kenosha, does anyone die?

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198567#Comment_118198567

Not in the context of the case. He opened fire because he felt under threat of harm. Whether or not the people he shot were there to protest or to burn out some cars is irrelevant.

wildeside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198417#Comment_118198417

He should not have been there the same way the rioters and looters should not have been there. It was a dumb thing for a 17 yr old kid to do going into a situation like that, good intentions or not. I did lots of dumb **** as a teenager and if I lived in a country/context where guns were part of my culture growing up, and legal, and readily available, could I conceivably have found myself in a similar situation given what was going on in the city? Who knows. But I wouldn't say it's completely inconceivable.

And this trial wasn't about whether he should have been there or not. It was about given the fact that he was there and given what transpired, was self defense a valid and legitimate legal defense for actions. The jury and I would say anyone looking at the videos dispassionately (stripping away politics and ideology) would agree he did act in self defense.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198609#Comment_118198609

It's very possible. Rosenbaum was unbelievably aggressive and itching for a fight all night.

If Rosenbaum hadn't been there, escalating the situation and attempting to murder a teenager, then I doubt anyone would have died.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198546#Comment_118198546

There was likely lots of guns involved. I think Grosskreutz had his illegally as his concealed carry permit had expired. Chances are others might have had guns illegally and they just weren't fired and then likely lots of people with guns legally.

Its a batshit system tbf.

Also the people who argue he should be found guilty cos a black person would have be found guilty are idiots imo. Surely the goal should be that a black person gets the same treatment here if they're not guilty rather than making the system worse for everyone.

Cody montana

I’m just thankful Ireland is not like the USA.

Seems a very divided country, with extremists on both sides and guns galore.

Never good.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198609#Comment_118198609

"If you you hadn't been at home, the burglars wouldn't have gotten hurt."

Sand

While it is a good thing that Rittenhouse was found not guilty, it is still outrageous that he was persecuted by the state and the media for a year and half. It was as clear a case of measured and proportionate self-defence as you'll see. Yet this 17 year old had grown adults openly fantasising on social media about murdering him, and him suffering in prison. He had politically motivated prosecutors dragging him through the courts where they did everything in their power to sabotage his defence. Lawfare is openly practised as a political weapon in the US, and Rittenhouse was a victim of it. He had mass media outlets giving him the full 2 minute hate treatment and attempting to pre-convict him before the trial even occurred. He will have to live in conditions not unlike a pseudo witness protection programme for the rest of his life.

The US is in a terrible place. Sure, Rittenhouse has been found not guilty, but for those who targeted him that only means there is more work to be done. The Rittenhouse case shows the US legal system isn't quite at the point where political targets can be reliably convicted on trumped up charges. But it is only moving in one direction.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198641#Comment_118198641

If there is a riot in Grafton Street or O'Connell Street, with windows being smashed, cars set on fire, looting etc and then someone shows up in the middle of this with an automatic weapon - the chances of there being fatalities and not just damage to property immediately shoots up.

Pa ElGrande

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198623#Comment_118198623

There were few other people armed with guns that evening. The first shot was fired by Mr. Joshua Ziminski. Ziminski was a rioter who along with actions of Mr. Rosenbaum has been graduating the levels of violence upward that evening. Ziminski faces trial in January.

A look at key points in Kyle Rittenhouse’s testimony

He said he had been putting out fires and asking people if they needed medical help when he saw Rosenbaum carrying a steel chain and wearing a mask. Rosenbaum began screaming at him, he said.

“He was just mad about something. He’s screaming, ‘If I catch any of you (expletives) alone I’m going to (expletive) kill you.’”

When he encountered Rosenbaum again later, Rosenbaum shouted, “I’m going to cut your (expletive) hearts out and kill you,” Rittenhouse said.

Later, he was walking with a fire extinguisher after hearing protesters were burning cars at one of the lots his friends were trying to protect. Rittenhouse said he saw a fire in a truck on one of the lots then Joshua Ziminski approached him with a gun. Rosenbaum came out from behind some cars and “ambushed” him, Rittenhouse testified.

He said he tried to run away but Rosenbaum chased him as Ziminski yelled “get him” and “kill him.” Rittenhouse said Rosenbaum threw a bag at him that he mistook for the chain, and that he pointed his rifle at Rosenbaum but Rosenbaum didn’t stop. He heard a gunshot behind him and ”I remember his hand on the barrel of my gun,” Rittenhouse said.

He said he fired four times, went up to Rosenbaum to see if he could help him, then ran away because people were yelling “get his ass, get him, get him.”

Snickers Man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193758#Comment_118193758

Get your facts right. Jacob Blake was not killed. He's still alive. He was ONLY shot eight times at point blank range and paralysed by Kenosha police. There's plenty of video of that incident. He was walking away from them at the time.

Twisting the facts, you say?

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198641#Comment_118198641

Well, I think KR showed extremely poor judgement in bringing a gun in the first place, you can't really say that about someone being in their own home. If the US wasn't the dysfunctional mess it is he would be in serious trouble for being out on the streets with a rifle, maybe he wouldn't have been out at all. But the place is a divided mess and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets a whole lot worse in future.

wildeside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198609#Comment_118198609

Short of firing up the parallel universe machine and seeing what happens it's impossible and pure conjecture to say. Maybe in that universe Rittenhouse isn't there but somebody else with a gun is and for some other reason ends up shooting more people than Rittenhouse. It's completely pointless to speculate.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198669#Comment_118198669

And the chances of that activity stopping increases. I know I'd run away if I was doing that and was confronted with armed people wanting to defend the streets. Koreans during the LA Riots are lauded for what they did to protect themselves.

This is where we get back to the Venn diagram. If you think it's ok to burn cities, you likely think there shouldn't be opposition to it. It's a grey area. No one is particularly right, but stuff happens, and sometimes there's a court case at the end of it.

Should people be allowed to destroy? Should people be allowed to defend? It's highly complicated. We don't have bigger questions like this answered in basic trials, so we focus on the facts at hand relating to the people involved.

10000maniacs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197495#Comment_118197495

An Armalite in one hand and a fire extinguisher in the other. Why are people here defending the indefensible?

He shouldn't have been there in the first place killing people or fighting fires or whatever else.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198675#Comment_118198675

Walking away? lol

I think you'll find he was evading arrest, while brandishing a knife. He had one of the officers in a headlock 5 seconds earlier. (plenty of video evidence of this too)

So yeah, not the perfect angel that BLM are trying suggest.

wildeside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118198719#Comment_118198719

You're missing the point. The trial wasn't about whether he should have been there or not. It was about whether he acted in self defense.