Is Dave Chappelle's new special "The Closer" really transphobic?

TheValeyard

Oh why oh why do we keep importing American social BS. I fear it is giving us brain damage.

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087402#Comment_118087402

Ha, you aren't wrong, and I should hold my hands up to that.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087327#Comment_118087327

Probably not many.. you see not that many people are actually against it.. despite what some sections of the media would have you believe.

More nonsense outrage. As per..

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087344#Comment_118087344

Bad timing to say all that on the day that Kathleen Stock resigns from Sussex Uni.

I don't know what you think the agenda of 'anti-SJW' people is. I would guess it's to counteract cancel culture therefore it's hardly surprising they are going highlight incidents of cancel culture when that's the very thing they fighting against, so of course doing such suites their 'agenda'.

The fact that Chappelle is loaded and therefore he can't be used as an example case for either cancel culture or represent the black demographic is ridiculous.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/sussex-professor-kathleen-stock-resigns-after-transgender-rights-row

hatrickpatrick

It is genuinely extremely disturbing and chilling to me, that this dogma essentially appeared out of nowhere in the early 2010s and has been elevated, across the board, to something upon which almost no debate or discussion is allowed in the mainstream without extreme pressure being exerted on anyone disagreeing with the zeitgeist, to change or withdraw their opinions or face consequences for failing to do so.

In my view, no matter where one stands on any given issue, the concept in a democracy of unquestionable and undiscussable sacred cows is fundamentally frightening and incompatible with living in a free society. But it's particularly alarming when this is a dogma which seeks to completely rewrite concepts central to how people relate to the world around them and navigate it, without allowing literally any form of public discussion about what we as a society want those concepts to be. It is also stripping various fundamental freedoms from people in a way which would have been absolutely unthinkable ten or so years ago, and has become something I am increasingly finding it impossible not to be exceedingly concerned by.

All of this is a real shame. I've always fundamentally believed that gender roles are BS and that people should be free to dress, talk, act etc however they feel like it, provided they don't violate anyone else's freedoms in doing so - a textbook social or civil libertarian, essentially. There should be no reason for me to have any beef whatsoever with a movement which ostensibly began as merely trying to attain greater freedom for a subset of the population who felt constrained by society's social norms. But this one issue has precipitated an extremely alarming and vicious form of authoritarianism which is causing me to view the entire movement with an air of hostility.

I highly doubt I am the only one who feels this way.

The idea that it is no longer acceptable to question or openly disagree with the idea that gender should be recognised as an abstract concept distinct from sex, or that one is entitled to their own sexual orientation and that nobody else has any right to attack them over it, is batsh!t insane. It's fundamentally incompatible with the idea of living in a free and open society in which no topic is off limits for consensus building and in which sexual autonomy is supposed to be an absolute and unequivocal right without exception or qualification.

The Chapelle furore is merely the latest in a long line of such incidents. Reddit has entirely banned any dissent over the issue of gender as a social construct (the central "anti evil operations" admins get involved if it ever comes up), the mainstream media seems to be genuinely frightened to cross these zealots, and anyone publicly expressing any form of disagreement whatsoever with the paradigm that biological sex is irrelevant in every context of life from language to sexual preference is immediately attacked by a mob of rampaging activists who do everything in their power to make that person's life as a difficult and f*cked up as possible.

I'm sorry, but leftist and liberal as I may be, that is not a world in which I want to live. It's utterly incomprehensible to me how this one issue has somehow become something which above literally anything else nobody is allowed to take issue with - even though the current dogma is extremely new and would have been considered the stuff of fringe extremists before roughly 2014.

I don't understand why we got here or why so much of the media, social and traditional alike, is kowtowing to this movement by disallowing any vocal disagreement with the newspeak they have essentially forced upon society without debate. It's inexplicable.

Am I truly the only person who feels this way, or has this crossed anyone else's mind recently?

km991148

It's funny, I've heard that no debate nonsense several times.

Good, on point marketing.

hatrickpatrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087899#Comment_118087899

Which part of it specifically do you find to be nonsense? Are you disputing the fact that publicly questioning or disagreeing with the "gender is a social construct" dogma is now an almost surefire way to whip up a mob who will very earnestly attempt to get your fired, have your work removed from the public sphere, etc?

Are you suggesting that people are openly free to disagree with the underlying ideology without some of those who support it, at the very least, attempting to severely punish them for doing so?

If that is the case, then why is there such a firestorm of controversy over Dave Chapelle's piece, why did Netflix staff stage a walkout, why have there been multiple calls for the piece to be censored in one way or another, why are there attempts to limit Chapelle's future career prospects?

There absolutely is not a free debate on this subject, and there hasn't been for several years. It has become a sacred cow which nobody is free to question without facing consequences which for many people essentially force them not to touch the subject at all.

km991148

I think we have nothing but debate on this subject. A people want to do is debate trans people. Over and over.

I think it's a clever trick to try and reframe the debate as being shut down and/or cancelled.

It clearly isn't.

Stock wasn't. She will do well in her career, don't you worry.

km991148

And has Dave been shut down? Where do you find out about it? What platforms are reporting this "cancellation" the most.

How many trans people have you spoken about or heard speak on this piece?

(I don't know any that are calling for him to be cancelled, and I know a good few at this stage..).

It's almost like we are being led to believe that this is the case. Wonder why that is??

km991148

Incidentally, I don't think Stock did argue about gender being a social construct. I think it was more about the priority gender has been given over sex.

Regarding your own terminology: there is plenty of science behind the way we view gender, so even framing it as "dogma" or an ideology is a little disingenuous and shows a clear bias and unwillingness to have a debate in good faith.

hatrickpatrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087939#Comment_118087939

She was forced to resign from her job. Whether she can find another job is irrelevant - it is absolutely mind boggling that one can be fired or forced out of a career simply because they publicly disagree with an extremely radical redefinition of a fundamental aspect of human life which has only been in use for maybe half a decade.

That is insane. It is extremely disturbing and simply should not be happening. It shouldn't be a magnet for condemnation and controversy to simply say "I don't agree with redefining this entire concept and I don't believe that society's move in that direction for the past six or so years has been a good thing".

It's also one of the only subjects which draws this much vitriol when one doesn't agree with the zeitgeist. It, abortion and this year COVID-related stuff are the only three things I can think of that have had this kind of instant ostracism attached to them in my own lifetime, born at the end of the 1980s. It feels akin to the stories one hears about McCarthyism, so I guess maybe that's the most recent example before these?

What's your opinion on what's happened to JK Rowling? What's your opinion on Channel 4 censoring an episode of the IT Crowd because it no longer aligns with the modern day dogma that respecting gender identity trumps having a sexual preference? It's all just completely lost the plot.

Honestly, for my own part I've always believed that people should be free to be and act however they like as long as they don't infringe the rights of others. I believe that the extremist elements of the gender abolitionists (for want of a better term) have crossed this line, in denying others the right to express a sexual preference and denying others the right to express political or societal opinions without being crucified over it.

I have nothing against transgender individuals, but some of their advocates are extraordinarily toxic people and are doing a massive amount of harm to society. A democratic, free society should not have a single sacred cow, end of story. The minute we cross the line into "we can't have a conversation like this, it must be shut down in case people air the 'wrong' opinions", we have crossed the line into fascism. Simple as that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087973#Comment_118087973

You're spot on.

As a homosexual, I'm disgusted at what's happening regarding the T in LGBT.

Kathleen Stock has lost her job over pressure from the view that she believes in biological sex.

What a total disgrace.

Dave Chappelle is right to call this crap out. Enough is enough.

hatrickpatrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087966#Comment_118087966

The dogma I refer to is that one's identified gender completely replaces biological sex as an attribute which people are allowed to factor in to their interactions with others, including sexual ones. The idea that, for example, biologically male, non-op individuals can invade lesbian spaces and demand that lesbians either be open to dating / riding them or be attacked as "transphobic" is probably the single most controversial example I can think of and is, to be honest, the main reason this whole dogmatic movement completely lost the plot in my eyes.

To deny the reality that, for want of a better term, many people (not all, but many!) who are not bisexual find something inherently "icky" and uncomfortable in the idea of being sexual with an individual whose sex is not the sex they are attracted to - whether they've had surgery to change it or not - and to attack those people as being bigoted or as doing something wrong in believing this, is authoritarian beyond belief. This kind of thinking utterly pervades the zealous dogma I've been referring to, and I'd argue it's the number one reason the issue has become as contentious as it has.

With regard to your other comment, I'd just like to clarify one thing: You asked me "How many trans people have you spoken about or heard speak on this piece?" - I would just like to make very, very, very clear that I do not believe this extremist dogma to be coming from trans individuals. I can obviously only speak for people I've personally met or spoken with about this, but in my own experience - and I'm entirely open to correction on this, of course - the vast, vast majority of people who identify as a gender which is distinct from their biological sex have absolutely no interest in denying that there is a difference between the two and that there are some issues in which that difference matters, sexuality and dating being a huge one. The same goes for Chapelle's piece - nobody I know who identifies as trans has attacked him for it or called for his firing.

Instead, as is often the case with identity politics generally, the outcry isn't coming from members of the group in question but from their self-declared "allies". And I would theorise that such folks are a mixture of (a) misguided idiots who think they're helping the group they're ostensibly fighting for, but are not, and (b) people who want to push these agendas for their own social engineering ends which have absolutely nothing to do with the groups they're ostensibly fighting for. In other words, those who do it in good faith and those who are doing it with bad intentions.

Either way, when it comes to pretty much any identity politics issue, it's almost always not members of the group under discussion who fuel the extremist "woke" crap. They generally just want to be respected and get on with their lives. It's their 'allies' who take up the cause and turn it into a toxic dumpster fire, and in my experience, many, many people who are actually members of such a societal group find those actions to be offensive at the very least and actively damaging to their own cause at the worst.

Gatling

It's about power noting else ,a tiny few self anointed activists who claim to be offended on behalf of the whole community ,

Where do these self anointed activists actually do activists do their self appointed jobs twitter , redit or on here ,

Happily to tell everyone that Chapelle is transphobic and his special is transphobic and and needs to be removed from Netflix , haven't actually watched it ,and it's not the first time we seen it ,last time it was a book by a well known female author

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087973#Comment_118087973

I think you are being led a merry dance tbh. And I disagree with the that the points you present are true. I think need to check your assumptions.

Incidentally, either the trans debate is the third biggest thing you have heard of in terms of being ostracised or is not being allowed to happen.. which is it??

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088033#Comment_118088033

Lol I see more people getting their knickers in a twist about the supposed cancellation of Chappelle that I do people calling for the cancellation.

I don't see any threads calling for it. I've seen few posts (even on this thread) calling for it.

That's regardless of how much oil these activists are rubbing on themselves 😂

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088028#Comment_118088028

I agree with a good chunk of this, but I still think the levels of actual activism is being terribly exaggerated.

But it's getting past my bedtime lol so will save the fuller response for another time

Gatling

This exactly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087402#Comment_118087402

It's not just American social BS anymore. A number of the American social sciences progressives have found positions teaching/lecturing in Europe (the UK was fertile ground), and there's been enough time, for our own brand of progressives to further such thoughts. It's here in Ireland, already established in universities like Trinity, and will continue to exist.. and be promoted.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088118#Comment_118088118

Lol YOU are the outrage in that post.. don't you see that?

This very thread is the outrage..

(Someone needs to quote that so Gatling can read 😆)

Shao Kahn

Stand up comedians are increasingly becoming the people best positioned to highlight the absurdities going on in our society.

When I first came to this realization, it seems a pretty absurd notion in and of itself. The funny man/woman, the clown up on stage just trying to get some cheap chuckles out of the audience, is the person best positioned to tackle such contentious issues. It's rather odd really when you think about it.

Perhaps it's because most people see a comedian as being a neutral observer of society. Their only real objective is to rip open a certain area of society, find a peculiar angle on that topic, and then extract the humor from whatever absurdity they uncover. There is a certain pureness or transparency behind the motive - so we're not inclined to make assumptions about ingrained prejudices.

How many people can we honestly say that about in society? That we don't automatically jump to conclusions about what someone's ingrained biases or prejudices might be? Is the class clown more trustworthy than many other people in our society?

It's obviously great that transgender people, and the whole lgbt community, don't suffer from the discrimination that used to be sadly very common. And those times are really not very long ago, so you can understand the instinct to aggressively protect the progress that has been made in this area.

But I still think, one of the great rites of passage for any group in society to gain true acceptance and integration, is to have a stand up comedian rip the piss out of you for an hour on stage! Whether or not you personally find Dave Chappelle funny, is beside the point.

I see it as a sign of progress really. Unless transgender people want to remain in a special box for the rest of time, like some magical unicorn levitating above the rest of society that can never be criticized or made fun of?

Welcome to society transgender people, you're just like the rest of us! If you say or do something dumb, you get some wise cracking comedian pointing and laughing at you... just like anyone else!

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087973#Comment_118087973

I think their advocates are even damaging the trans people themselves

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089228#Comment_118089228

he doesn’t or barely insults trans at all , it’s the utter pricks that have a go at him on their behalf

Ash.J.Williams

Chapelle really showed Graham linehan he could make 70million if he applied himself

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087402#Comment_118087402

Two huge aspects of American culture and psyche are the salesman and the preacher. Always be closing, praise the Lord! Both are sales tactics and mass media has amped it up. Look at US presidential races, one half sales pitch, the other evangelical revival meeting. One reason U2 and specifically Bono were/are so huge in the US market was Bono preached, during and inbetween songs. That's also why he's viewed with more suspicion in the European psyche. The preacher is an even stronger fgure in African American culture(and poor Whites). Look at the most recent Dave vid posted above. He frames things like a Baptist preacher with callbacks from the congregation. A cynic might suggest he's preaching to his flock so the collection plates keep filling. I would be more of the opinion that such things are so deeply engrained in the American psyche that it's not cynical anymore, it just is. As for his detractors they're channeling some of the olde timey religion in their own way, eager to call out heretics of their dogma. Rinse and repeat.

As for Dave and Trans. If he'd done his short skits on them among others and left it at that, he wouldn't be here today. He doubled down, when he could have ignored it and moved on. Maybe he'd be getting static for his "space Jews" bit instead, though I doubt it if it was only in one routine/special.

maik3n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088192#Comment_118088192

If it wasn't for this thread, I would never have known that Chappelle had another special out, let alone whether there was any question or outrage regarding it being/not being transphobic.

With that said, I don't think there is any fear of him ending up like Graham Linehan if he does choose the trans angle as a hill to die on.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089388#Comment_118089388

This reads like a passage from some 1990s John Waters article. Zeitgeisty, pseudosociology twaddle

piplip87

So people got offended by his first two specials because it was in their opinion "transphobic" then why the **** did they sit down and watch the third one if the first two passes them off so much ?

Could it be certain people like to get offended and again these people also like to be a victim ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089463#Comment_118089463

Well... the thing is that the Trans issue has to be always in the public space. Feminism used to be the same way, although it seems to have lost some momentum as the changes kicked in.

The point being that advocates of trans issues will constantly be looking for issues which keep their agenda "relevant". Part of that are the people who joke or criticise the movement, but even without them, the agenda would continue to be pushed into view. It's a tactic to ensure that change continues to occur at a rapid pace.. because people's attention spans are short, and they need constant reminders. It's another indication of the influence that American culture has.

Lastly, there is a pleasure rush in fighting the good fight.. so the people who are invested in pushing this agenda will be seeking things to be outraged over, and then they can go to their echo chamber to get pats on the shoulder for being offended. It's simply the flip side of the argument that the people who complain about woke activities, are often seeking out things to get annoyed over. Which, I'd say, is pretty accurate, for both sides.

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089459#Comment_118089459

What is the most mercantile culture on the planet? Which culture has the most competing "products" looking for buyers? While marketing existed to some degree since the industrial revolution it was America that made it a science and with the internet and social media, almost entirely US in culture, it's gone worldwide. As for religion; America was founded by those leaving reformation Europe. After some jostling among various sects in Europe it settled down, but in America it continued. America has more denominations of Christianity than anywhere else in the west, never mind other faiths in the mix. Where else has so many televangelists? Even the American Dream is a sales pitch.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089763#Comment_118089763

Based on this post I'm not sure you understood the point Dyr was making 😂

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090770#Comment_118090770

Oh I did, he had no point to speak of.

Rothko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118088192#Comment_118088192

You sound quite outraged yourself....

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090844#Comment_118090844

nah - not even slightly lol - and certainly not over stuff like this!

I just find the irony hilarious (And Gatling wont see it because he (in a fit of outrage) blocked me..)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090844#Comment_118090844

I don't think it's outrage... just playing with others and seeking to "trigger" reactions. It's the way these discussions usually go. With the exception of a few very dedicated (to these kind of agendas) posters, I doubt that many people are really all that invested in the topic.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090934#Comment_118090934

I'm sorry that you see it that way. I am not seeking to trigger anyone, I really do find the irony funny (the outrage and counter outrage - although I see far more evidence of the outrage against the people who are apparently looking to cancel DC than I don people trying to actually cancel him..).

Is that what you do? Play with people and try and trigger arguments? Genuine question, but that's not something that would naturally occur to me. Some people do of course love a windup, but its not the default - and a little strange to throw it out there as an accusation (maybe you are trying to "trigger" me?).

However, If people are actually triggered then maybe they need to look within themselves as to why that would be?

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087966#Comment_118087966

What do you mean there is 'plenty of science behind the way we view gender'?

Do you mean biological gender? Yes of course. If you mean plenty of science in respect of the new gender orthodoxy there is absolutely no science whatsoever and there is no such thing as a 'gender expert', i.e. one who is in a position to speak as an authority in the area of gender fluidity and all that.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089463#Comment_118089463

im guessing people are making money from being offended

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091326#Comment_118091326

you dont need to put it in bold, that is obvious and not really how scientific research works, but you know that, right?

Ash.J.Williams

https://youtu.be/1t8YdTzHTp4

This is actually funny

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091340#Comment_118091340

I think it waay worse - yeah for sure some. But there is also big business in the counter offended - the DM etc thrive on shite like this..

Hard to keep up with all the outrage - and as someone said earlier (Klaz?) - how many folks actually have a vested interest in half of these topics anyway (not that it is a reason to not have an opinion on a place like this..)?

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089423#Comment_118089423

The big difference is chapelle is having the craic and getting paid, linehan is losing everything .

Gatling

piers morgan did a few segments on a TV show last year about the whole trans ideology and outrage and cancellations of people standing up to self proclaimed activists ,

Imagine having a gay man call a person transphobic and the actual trans person telling the gay man he's actually not transphobic and he's actually defended trans rights ,

It's people Claiming outrage to be outraged on behalf of others

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090970#Comment_118090970

Me? Nope. I enter discussions that I have an interest in. Generally anything that involves the way society is changing tends to interest me.

As for me trying to trigger you... I really couldn't be bothered. I've been on the internet long enough to realise that most posters are non-entities and without any personal knowledge/experience of them as people, there's little to no value in trying to determine their true feelings on any subject.

Your last comment is a perfect example of the attitude of those seeking to trigger others. Perhaps you really are unaware of this, but I honestly doubt it. You've been on these kind of threads enough to see the difference, and if you profess some ignorance over it, fine... although, I suspect there's more to it than that.

Either way, it leads nowhere, and I'll leave it at that... since I rarely have the patience anymore to chase people and try pinning them down to a definite position. (which is why my comment was directed at someone else and not at you)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118067663#Comment_118067663

gender identity denying biological sex is precisely Butler’s ideology. She creates an ideology and then refutes it.

km991148

My last comment is valid and nothing to do with what either of us think the other may or may not be triggered on it trying to trigger on.

It's a generalisation, that applies to anyone, myself included. If something is triggering you then look within to see why that might be the case. Yes some pricks will always try to push buttons, but that's up to you to not allow them to be. So no it's not a perfect example, and I really don't appreciate the way you are throwing the accusations about.

I'm generally interested in this topic for my own reasons (not that I have to justify that) - although not so much this DC angle (I rather find this one funny fur the irony's mentioned above).

If this was all directed at someone else then fine, but why keep quoting me? I am not outraged nor "trying to trigger" anyone. Why accuse me of it Vs assuming good faith?

(No after all that, it does sound like I'm triggered lol 🤣🤣)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118092777#Comment_118092777

If this was all directed at someone else then fine, but why keep quoting me?

My previous post quoted you. The one before that, quoted and was directed at someone else entirely.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118092976#Comment_118092976

yeah - look you quoted rothko who was making a point about me being outraged!

Anyway - I have typed waaaay more than this actually merits. For the record I am neither outraged nor triggered nor trying to trigger anyone.

Kermit.de.frog

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sqbwsY4rb9g

So this is why Dave Chappelle should be cancelled? Just people looking to be permanently offended.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118093648#Comment_118093648

But this is the thing - I don't think that many people ARE looking for him to be 'cancelled'. Its the counter offense that seems strongest. Look at the second sentence of the opening post of this thread (and a lot of what followed).

That there is just a joke. It uses a poor/invalid comparison (in my opinion) - but its comedy and doesn't really need to be all that accurate, context is key - and most people understand that.