Is Dave Chappelle's new special "The Closer" really transphobic?

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012956#Comment_118012956

The fella who lost his job because he was repeatedly bandstanding while he was on the company clock in front of whole world? Yeah heard of him. Kinda different to joe soaps being fired from their jobs because the loons found out that they had the wrong politics or had an argument with some prick about his dogs behaviour.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006880#Comment_118006880

"Sex and gender are not the same thing"

Agreed.

So then why would trans women be allowed in female spaces?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019077#Comment_118019077

What's female about a space?

MilkyToast

This website has examples of the sort of rape and death threats, harassment, abuse and general fuckery that women face when they try to protect the rights of women to have female-only spaces. There's a whole page for just JK Rowling, but plenty issued against other, not-rich, not-famous women: https://terfisaslur.com/

Women don't want to preserve the ability to keep some spaces female-only because they're transphobic. They want to keep some spaces female-only because they are at unique risk from certain types of male-pattern violence. That's MALE-pattern, not man-pattern. Transwomen are male. More to the point, allowing transwomen into female spaces, particularly when the legal requirement for becoming a woman is that you sign a piece of paper or utter a few words, will reduce the level of safeguarding measures that women have against nefarious actors who will use those laws and policies to gain access to vulnerable women.

The argument against that is that it never happens, would never happen, is a red herring. Usually spouted by the same people who will light candles for Sarah Everard, who was murdered by a man who planned his attack, gathered his resources for months, and used the cultural trust in his police warrant card to lure her into his captivity before raping and murdering her. Or people who will speak vociferously against men who used the cover of the Catholic church and the trust thereby instilled in them by the community to commit horrific sexual abuse. But no, a murderous rapist would never go through the trouble of filling out a form or wearing a dress.

In the US, a man was arrested at a school board meeting where the members were debating a motion to allow trans students into their bathroom of choice, when he tried to bring to their attention that his fourteen-year-old daughter had been anally raped and sexually assaulted in the toilet by a male student wearing a dress. The school, committed to its inclusive ethos and likely terrified of pushback from an abusive trans activist campaign, decided they would deal with the anal rape of one of its students "in house". The police were called to the school because the father, upon realising his daughter had been raped by another student, was "making a scene". Had he not, it's unlikely that the rape kit that was administered at a local hospital—which found the DNA of the rapist—would have been administered later that day.

The National School Boards Association used the girl's father as a jumping-off point for trying to suggest that parents who object to their daughters being raped in the anus by boys in skirts might be engaging in a form of domestic terrorism. Just before the man's arrest, and despite the boy in question being arrested and charged with forcible sodomy and forcible fellatio, the school board's superintendent said that concerns about the trans bathrooms policy were misplaced because there was no record of any assault occurring in any school bathroom. On October 6th, while awaiting prosecution for the anal rape committed in the school bathroom, the same boy who had used his skirt-wearing as pretext to gain access to the girls' bathrooms, was arrested and charged with sexual battery and abduction after forcing a girl into an empty classroom and sexually assaulting her. It is notable that the girl's father was arrested when he got angry after a school board member in a rainbow shirt said she didn't believe the rape victim - his daughter.

One of the school board members organised an online mob to collect the information of the parents that objected to the school's attempts to introduce "progressive" policy. The uber-progressive prosecutor in the country took a personal interest in the father's case, hoping to send him to jail for his outburst at the school board meeting. One of the board members said they would ruin his plumbing business.

So yeah, it never happens. Except when it does and has full institutional backing, up to and including what amounts to an attempt at a cover up. Full details here, if your blood pressure can handle it: https://outline.com/AqtgHW

Not the only example of penis-havers taking advantage of these sorts of policies to access vulnerable women, of course, but a current one.

So yeah, all the "it never happens" and the "Rape threats against JK Rowling aren't real because net worth" arguments don't wash.

As for The Closer... it wasn't transphobic. I also didn't find it particularly funny, as Chappelle's specials go.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019230#Comment_118019230

Hard to tell if you're being obtuse or disingenuous, but okay.

For ease of discussion, I use "woman" to mean "adult human female" and "man" to mean "adult human male".

The term "female space" is used to refer to certain places, like prisons or toilets or rape crisis centres, where women, particularly vulnerable women, can go to get privacy or respite from men. It can also be used to refer to certain sports, where men who have been through puberty have such a large advantage over women that allowing mixed participation effects fairness.

Were you more concerned with why women might want to maintain "female spaces"?

Women may want privacy in toilets to do things they don't want to do in front of men, like clean the menstrual blood out of their menstrual cups, wash their hands after changing a tampon, deal with the bleeding from a miscarriage, cry, ****, and so on.

Women may want to avoid sharing a carceral setting with men because, up to 50% of them having experiences domestic violence in their lifetime, they perceive being locked in with criminal men—recidivist sex offenders in particular—to be a danger to their safety.

Women may want to have their own sports category because in some sports, such as fighting sports, rugby, sprinting, weightlifting (the list goes on), they are put at an unfair disadvantage and possibly at increased risk of injury when competing against men.

And women may object to transwomen being in female spaces because there is no possible way to differentiate between a transwoman and a predatory man who is using the trans "loophole" to gain access to vulnerable women.

As I've said before in these threads, I realise that this puts trans people in a bad position and that it can be hurtful to them. I have sympathy for their situation, when all they really wish to do is live their lives as the opposite sex and be accepted as such without having to constantly draw attention to themselves by being seen using bathrooms for the "wrong" sex. I have sympathy with transwomen who are indignant at the fact that they are being associated, no matter how loosely, with predatory men. Just as I do with the "not all men" types who pipe up every time there's a discussion about rape, indignant that they, perfectly lovely men who would never dream of committing any sort of assault against anyone, are being "lumped in" with the worst of the worst.

But my sympathy does not extend to throwing my hands up and saying "Oh well, what's a few rapes and batterings if it saves someone's feelings! Sure they're rare anyway." It just doesn't. And I don't imagine it ever will.

Dyr

It's funny to me to see women who bitched and moaned endlessly about male only spaces until they became a thing of the past now demanding their female only spaces be perserved, Getting a nice view from that petard? 🤔

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019986#Comment_118019986

Oh, the powers that be are always very sure to keep "male only" things going when they find it appropriate.

In the UK, for example, a trans man is legally male in pretty much all things... except in the inheritance of peerages etc.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019230#Comment_118019230

Why don't you ask a transwoman and ask them why they want to use a female space.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019979#Comment_118019979

I was being neither obtuse nor disengenuous. I wanted your description as part of the discussion.

Leaving aside the fact that a lot of the acts that you suggest women do not want to carry out in front of a man, many of those are done within the confines of a toilet cubicle and so it is being disingenuous to imply that everything that goes on within a toilet facility is in plain view of everyone else.

Do you think that allowance should be made for women with respect to any location that can be deemed a carceral setting? Restaurants? Theatres? Public transport? Work cubicles, conference rooms etc etc?

And women may object to transwomen being in female spaces because there is no possible way to differentiate between a transwoman and a predatory man who is using the trans "loophole" to gain access to vulnerable women

There is frequent commentary from women pleading that the focus in the aftermath of one of them being attacked is not put on them with suggestions of 'You shouldn't dress like that, have had so much to drink, walked alone, been out late at night' and so on. When they ask people to direct their instruction at the men who may attack them they are told 'not all men' and they shouldn't imply any differently.

But in this instance, for some reason, people are practically assuming that a trans person is likely to be operating as such for dubious if not outright sinister reasons. Aside from it being a presumption that this is likely to be the case and something should be done at all costs to prevent this, not only does it shine a light on the weakness of the 'not all men' argument, but it would likely lead to a prejudice against trans people that they must be so motivated. How many instances are there of such steps been taken to gain access to women in the female space as you point out? This conflicting approach I do believe is disingenuous.

As for the sports setting, I do believe that there is a much stronger argument for not allowing trans-women to compete within female competitions because there is demonstrative evidence of the beneficial impact of having lived their lives for some amount of time as male. I can see it would conflict with their inherent desire to live as a woman but in this instance there is measurable data to indicate that this gives them an advantage. Many Sport organizations are starting to look at it in this way.

But to close in relation to the general term of 'female spaces' many people grew up in houses where we shared facilities with people of different genders without issue. And I know an argument against that is that 'yeah but you are related to them' but that is a weak response in my view. People then went out in to the world where and shared facilities with new housemates and their friends many of who they didn't know that well at all to begin with, if at all. We have worked in places where there are shared toilet facilities without issue. To live our lives in such a way but to then freak out at the concept of someone sharing opposite facilities on the premise that they are possibly going to behave inappropriately, if not outright illegally is either doing so for the sake of it, or making a mockery of the 'not all men' argument and many of the people holding the former position, also seem to use the latter. Not everyone, and I'm not saying you, but I've seen it in a lot of cases.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020488#Comment_118020488

Great contribution. As always.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020028#Comment_118020028

A far more common example than peerages in the UK is that transgender men are regarded as female for the purposes of motherhood, as in they are not recognised as fathers on their children’s birth certificates whom they have given birth to.

Speaking of fathers, or “penis havers”, “adult human males”, whichever pronouns you’re comfortable with, as Dave Chapelle would say, I noticed that when you were giving it welly about females needing protection from penis havers who are responsible for male pattern violence, you neglected to mention that the activist who was the subject of harassment by the penis haver, is female; the person who organised the online mobs against parents, is female, and the prosecutor who sought a conviction against the penis haver who was representative of male pattern violence, is female. The alleged victim, also female, does not appear to share the views of her penis having adult human male father, or her vulva having adult human female mother -

Though Smith’s daughter has been allegedly raped and separately beaten at school, the teen has adopted increasingly strong progressive views over the course of her tenure at LCPS.

“Where does she get these ideas? From school, obviously,” Jess said. “It’s not from our home.”

It’s as though the child is perfectly capable of being able to distinguish between people who are transgender (or as your own story suggests, the accused is gender fluid), and people who commit criminal offences such as rape, which is an offence far more prevalent among family members in homes, than it is in prisons (where the majority of prison officers are penis havers!), women’s shelters, etc, or even the number of penis havers who have perpetrated male pattern violence in women’s sports.

The point is that they can do all of the above without wearing a dress or filling out a piece of paper, because the idea is they don’t intend to draw attention to themselves, with the idea being that they are facilitated in committing abuse and violence by gaining their victims trust. It has nothing to do with their sex or gender or whether or not they have a penis.

Rather like the way Dave Chapelle ignores the existence of black people who are transgender in making his point about people who are transgender receiving more attention than black people (he says as he presents a Netflix special complaining about the privilege enjoyed by white people who are transgender, but he had a white transgender friend so it’s ok 😂), you’re ignoring the existence of the vast majority of women who don’t share your paranoia of penis having, male pattern violence associated, adult human males.

AllForIt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020587#Comment_118020587

Thank you. I'm glad you got the point.

John Doe1

Dave Chapelle is a comedic genius. The role of a comedian should be about destroying any sacred cows. The whole trans thing is now a religion, no evidence, all faith and any questioning of the religion results in hysteria from the zealots as they know deep down how shaky the foundations are.

Saying all that, I must say that Trans women, great bunch of lads.

cj maxx

Trans 'women ' shouldn't be allowed in women's toilets. Maybe earmark the usual 3rd toilet as disabled/transgender

Caught it tonight

Its unfunny, which is the main failing. Well below par for him and i cant help feel hed have been better off avoiding a topic if he had nothing very clever or interesting to say on it

Parachutes

No group of people is above comedy or criticism.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021638#Comment_118021638

Says you while treating Dave Chapelle like he’s a sacred cow 🤨 There’s nothing genius about recycling jokes that are at least hundreds of years old that he never came up with in the first place, much less was he destroying any sacred cows by complaining that white people still treat people who are transgender better than they treat black people.

As he said himself - listen to what he’s saying. He was using people who are transgender to point out that black people still aren’t treated as equal to white people. In his previous special which didn’t air on Netflix (it went out on YouTube), he maintained that the violence which is being committed by black people in America is “the streets talking”. The streets don’t talk, people are responsible for that shìt.

The whole trans thing is no more a religion than the long established ideas about gender and sex and all the rest of it. Going against THAT sacred cow would be edgy, risky, and worthy of being called genius if you pulled it off successfully. Reinforcing 100 year old shìtty jokes that are heard in every school playground? Fcukall genius about that. See what happens when anyone questions THOSE ideas which are based just as much entirely on faith and lack of evidence. They’re predicated upon dominant social norms, just like the way how black people are treated in America is based entirely upon dominant social norms, and has fcukall to do with biology.

The hysteria from zealots is coming from a couple of different directions - like when Caitlyn Jenner was awarded woman of the year, or the usual shyte about men in dresses coming to rape all the women in prisons and domestic shelters and sports. Suddenly there’s an outcry from people who never gave a shìt about women, wanting EVERYONE to protect women, from men.

THAT’s the point Chapelle was making, and that’s the point you missed - the social hierarchy in American society, and why wouldn’t you miss the point, given you don’t live in America, and you’re not a negro either.

Did you just use the word negro in 2021 while posting a typically overtyped screed all holier than thou and high horse about someone else?

Astonishing tbh.

Says you while treating Dave Chapelle like he’s a sacred cow 🤨 There’s nothing genius about recycling jokes that are at least hundreds of years old that he never came up with in the first place, much less was he destroying any sacred cows by complaining that white people still treat people who are transgender better than they treat black people.

remind me what specific jokes he used that are 100 years old? the term transgender is only a few decades old

And isn’t he right about white people and transgender rights, it’s pretty clear on the hierarchy of victim hood these days that trans is higher than black. Not surprising then that the largely black audience lapped that up.

or the usual shyte about men in dresses coming to rape all the women in prisons and domestic shelters and sports. Suddenly there’s an outcry from people who never gave a shìt about women, wanting EVERYONE to protect women, from men.

most of the outcry is from women. Also there’s no requirement for men to wear dresses. And your ideology has slipped there, why did you say “men”.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021922#Comment_118021922

Well that sailed right over your head 😏

https://youtu.be/-RhhTQ8DjGo

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021934#Comment_118021934

The jokes about men claiming to be women, the language may have changed, but the point is still the same.

And yes, he is right in one sense about how white transgender people are treated, that was the point of the joke about black people looking on and saying to themselves that they should have copied trans activists and they’d probably have equal rights by now (the joke being that everyone knows they wouldn’t, because they’re black!).

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021937#Comment_118021937

Ohh I think you’ll find that most of the outcry has historically always come from men who were so concerned that they might be tricked into having sex with a transsexual, and it’s only recently that there’s any sort of an opinion among women, because nobody really gives a shìt for womens opinions about anything. They’re useful, that’s about it, y’know, as long as they have a real pussy and not a fake one, and they’re not backing up into urinals while Dave is taking a piss.

I’m well aware there’s no requirement for men to wear dresses, I made the point! One of the points being made is that men who want to commit sexual assault against women and girls are being enabled by laws which recognise people who are transgender as equals, and that in order to carry out their devious plans, all a rapist has to do is don a dress and nobody can say boo!

And why did I say men? Because the people opposed to recognising that people who are transgender are entitled to equal status in society are claiming that these sexual assaults and rapes of women will be committed by men if people who are transgender are recognised as being of equal status in society.

It’s similar to the rationale by which black people were denied equal status in American society, because of the perceived threat they posed to white society, and particularly to white women. It’s a perception that is still fairly popular in American pornography among white men given the popularity of the myth that black men have larger penises than white men. No basis in biology for it, but the myth persists, based upon ignorance rather than reality… and a whole slew of schoolyard jokes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021969#Comment_118021969

everything is meandering and incoherent with you. And you deliberately reply with hundreds of words, mostly irrelevant. Anybody can look through the post I was replying to you and your response and see it’s not replying to the point I made about your post.

i don’t know if it’s deliberate or not, either way it’s certainly annoying.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021956#Comment_118021956

What jokes?. As I said the term transgender didn’t exist until recently. And far from there being jokes about transgender (which didn’t exist as a movement a 100 years ago) , unless you mean drag. But that’s not transgender but transvestite.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021996#Comment_118021996

I’ll go easier this time.

most of the outcry is from women.

It’s not. Most of the outcry, by a country mile, comes from men. It’s always come from men. There are only a tiny number of women who are objecting to the phenomenon on social media, but it’s primarily men who will determine political, social and legal policies.

Also there’s no requirement for men to wear dresses.

I never said there was. The point I was making is that it is claimed that by simply donning a dress, men have access to women and girls to commit rape and abuse with impunity and for there to be no consequences for their actions.

And your ideology has slipped there, why did you say “men”.

I disregarded your suggestion that anything is my ideology as being beside the point, I think you’ll find I have never argued that men are women. The reason however that I referred to men in this instance is because it is men who are being referred to as a threat to women and girls, by both men and women, but primarily by men, who claim that women need to be protected from men. Feminists have been arguing that same point for decades, only to be shouted down by the same men who now want to protect women from men.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118022000#Comment_118022000

You’re choosing to resort to playing dumb, and you’re not very convincing at it either because it’s quite obvious you’re choosing to ignore the point I made that the language has changed, but the point is still the same. Men claiming to be women were always regarded with suspicion and derision and having all sorts of jokes made about them. It’s hardly a new concept in 2021.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015666#Comment_118015666

I do not think it is intolerance or hostility. In my opinion it is rather indifference or non issue for most of the people. Problem only start when you try to suck them in topic they are not interested in and then try to direct them and dictate what they should tolerate, think, believe or even do.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019986#Comment_118019986

it's not really

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118021956#Comment_118021956

you're not getting it