The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118288249#Comment_118288249

I don't mind my comments being labelled batshit crazy, creative and bizarre. That quite suits me.

But your comments about me twisting or trying somehow to evade my clearly stated point about politics and education, had me worried you thought I was a propagandist of the "State" or other dark forces. Well that's a relief we've clarified that.

That is true, democracy is only one flavour of politics, the one in situ. Either way the key point I was making was that the equal status of Irish / English has the backing of the people and that includes its implications for education. If there was no mandate, it would have been changed.

I would argue that "the function of Irish with regard to secondary school is most certainly political AND educational." They are not mutually exclusive.

Why are we not achieving conversational fluency and enjoyment in Irish? I refer you to post #1335.

One hour a day is the main reason followed closely by the lack of social supports. It's too hard and it's simply not enough time in the school environment to reach that nirvana with other priorities jostling for position and there is no appetite to expand the time allocated to it (just look at the howling on this thread on the current Irish allocation!).

That's the dilemma Irish in the school setting finds itself in and that's why I place high value on attempts to improve in Irish outside of the school day/ school years.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118293442#Comment_118293442

You've written a lot but dodged my question.

What is the purpose/goal of teaching Irish as a mandatory subject? We know what the teaching of English and Maths needs to achieve. So when we look at the money spent on these subjects, the syllabus etc we can say if the courses and teaching methods are effective/money being spent efficiently. We can have a discussion on these topics. Take Maths for example the maths course there has been vigorous discussion on the course at leaving cert level around. Does it prepare students for 3rd level and particularly the more maths intensive courses? We have seen syllabus changes to try and address issues identified with the teaching of maths.

The reason I am asking the question is that when people are saying that spending 1 billion (the exact figure is irrelevant to my point) on Irish is a waste, is that you can't say it is a waste/benefit unless you have some idea of what the spending is supposed to achieve.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118293589#Comment_118293589

I didn't label your comments as bizarre, I labeled your insults as bizarre, and if being insulting suits you, so be it.

I've dealt with with your comments in post 1335 and your lack of understanding about what the words political and democratic mean, so I'm not going back there again.

Everything else is you say is endemic of the attitudes to educational Irish: the function is to preserve the constitustional status of the language and preserve the parity with English. This may or may not be the most democratic choice (I don't think a nationwide poll has been done any time recently, could be wrong) but even if it has, it's political not educational. So in that resepct, you were right.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294646#Comment_118294646

@PeadarCo Perhaps I wrote too much because I certainly didn't dodge your question.

 reading, writing, listening, speaking? And here is the shocking point, Irish is evaluated the same way! 

You talk about syllabus changes in Maths - are you unaware of the recent syllabus change so that Irish at leaving is now evaluated 40% on oral communication?

You now have a second question about the purpose of teaching Irish as a mandatory subject. I've already answered that at length, go to post #1335.

It's like you have already predetermined that Irish is a nebulous and pointless endeavour because you certainly aren't engaging with anything I have written and there has been plenty on this thread!

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295272#Comment_118295272

I don't think you realise that the Dev-worshiping as in DeValera-worshiping etc... "insults" in that post were actually a comic reference pointing at myself.

Anyway, I think when the discussion moves focus on the specific meaning of words like democratic and political it's time for last orders or the famous deoch an dorais.

As a finishing point, I'll just leave this link here from the Irish Times about an Tuairisc.ie/Millward Brown poll showing majority support for the status quo.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tuarasc%C3%A1il/majority-in-favour-of-retention-of-compulsory-irish-tuairisc-ie-poll-1.1962920

And no they're not delusional, no they're not anti-education and no they're not wasting money. They are simply Irish men and women who love their language, history, culture and traditions. Maith sibh a chairde.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298993#Comment_118298993

Yeah, not disagreeing with that last paragraph - they know exactly what they're doing - I just don't think it's the best approach for the language.

Anyway, thanks for your input :)

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294646#Comment_118294646

What is the purpose/goal of teaching Irish as a mandatory subject?

Read the curriculum, that will give you an idea.

The reason I am asking the question is that when people are saying that spending ...X... on Irish is a waste, is that you can't say it is a waste/benefit unless you have some idea of what the spending is supposed to achieve.

Well, this is where a lot of people have different ideas.

Some are happy with the current system. Others, on both sides, are not.

Some people are of the opinion that ANY money spent on Irish is a waste of time. With those people, no discussion is possible, which in a sense is fine. But they do spend a lot of time and energy sounding off, as they haven't enough support to introduce the changes they would like to see.

From my point of view, the money spent is not producing new speakers to the level that similar programs in other countries do. I'm sure that there are lots of reasons for this, but the fact is that if this is the goal, the curriculum is clearly not achieving its objective. To this extent we are not receiving value for money.

Others feel that what we have is in fact the whole point of the exercise: tick the box so that a lot of people will be happy that "something is being done" while at the same time ensuring that competent or even semi-competent speakers are not produced to any significant degree, as that might upset the balance of forces within the State on this issue. As the current system has been in existence for decades, there appears to be a significant amount of evidence for this theory. Without a radical shake-up to the system (Dept of Ed, NCCA, etc) this is unlikely to change unless many more Gaelscoileanna come on stream.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301815#Comment_118301815

For me read the curriculum isn't an answer. I interpret that as don't know. Again with English and Maths the aims of teaching both subjects are obvious in terms of what they need to achieve. For me and based on your response yourself as well it's not obvious with Irish.

If it's a purely cultural exercise you could achieve the same impact with far less classroom hours, if it's trying to generate new Irish speakers it's failed comprehensively over the last 100 odd years. The ever decreasing size of the Gaeltacht and number of daily Irish speakers outside the education system is testament to that. Personally it comes across as a political statement that harms the language more than anything. It allows non Irish speakers to ignore the challenges the language actually faces by allowing non Irish speakers to pretend that they are supporting the language. It also creates jobs for Irish speakers that wouldn't exist otherwise which again you could do at far less cost and create jobs that would actually assist Irish speakers in their daily lives(now whether Irish language speakers would want those alternative jobs is a different question and raises even bigger issues for the language). My guess is that its a combination of the above. But the lack of a clear goal when it comes to teaching the Irish language is a huge problem. Remember the minute the Irish leaving cert exam finishes so ends most people's meaningful relationship with the Irish language. It makes it very easy for people to call spending on Irish a waste. Personally my feelings are mixed on the question.

The one thing I will say is that unless that challenges facing the language are actually acknowledged (ie accept Irish has long ceased to be the primary native language in Ireland) and a strategy put in place that acknowledges those challenges the language will continue to wither. Putting Irish on a few more signs/legal documents etc doesn't do anything for the language in my opinion just as scientist's naming stuff in Latin doesn't revive Latin as a living language. It harms the language because it allows people to pretend that they are supporting the language. If you go back to what the OP was saying about increased Irish signage etc its pointless because they do nothing to address the actual reasons for the decline of the language as a living language.

Hotblack Desiato

By no means is all spending on promotion of the Irish language a waste of money.

Just most of it, including the pretence that all LC students should take the same exam regardless of whether they live in an Irish-speaking home, or not.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118303689#Comment_118303689

It's as if you're saying @PeadarCo that it should be a stated goal of school Irish "to stop the decline of the language as a living language".

That's too much of a burden to place on the school system. Don't forget that it was tried before in 1922 and didn't work. Instead we have the present day approach based on equality.

I see my phrase "political statement" made it into your reply with negative connotations. It reads to me that you want a different political statement to be made and one that I don't think has a democratic mandate.

The only way a mass revival of Irish will occur is if the population want it to. The school system provides the support for those who either already live through Irish or who wish to graduate to this level of Irish in adulthood (with further study).

Your posts @PeadarCo have so many apples and oranges comparisons I don't know where to start. The most obvious one is about those who don't engage with Irish once they finish the leaving cert exam and linking this to the decline of the language. Are you seriously suggesting that this "lack of engagement post school" is not the case also for modern foreign languages, English literature or any school subject that isn't that person's specialism in the vast majority of cases?

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118301815#Comment_118301815

It would be interesting to learn more about similar programmes in other countries.

I think this book is a good example of "why we are where we are". It outlines the primary curriculum in one book and the objectives to help parents and teachers and has an extensive look inside feature.

https://4schools.examcraftgroup.ie/content/ar-aghaidh-leat-sample

First it amazed me that such a book hasn't existed until recently, that in itself is a red flag.

But more importantly, this book covers 8 of the 13 years of school Irish. IMHO there is no way conversational speakers will be formed from this level of vocabulary/engagement alone.

And that assumes it is all covered which I'm sure many 1st year Irish teachers could tell us otherwise.

I'm not dissing the primary curriculum or teachers by the way, I just want some of realism because if we remember that schools will at best deliver the basics, we can set realistic expectations.

Upforthematch

Upforthematch

5 affordable measures to to stop the decline of the language as a living language (or increase its creeping prominence depending on your POV)

1. Free additional Irish classes in schools during mid term/Easter/holidays to help parents struggling with cost of childcare. Particular focus on primary school ages to consolidate or catch up on material.

2. School tours to rural and urban gaeltachtai part of primary school curriculum. Belfast in particular is very inspiring for Irish learners these days. Creates positive memories and reinforces that Irish is a living language

3. Additional funding for Irish language content on TG4. Ringfenced so it cannot be spent on the rights for Westerns or Orange is the New Black. Addresses the lack of quality content. What is there is excellent by the way.

4. Build the links between Irish and sport. All Gaa match commentary in Irish first with English subtitles or option. Other sports with Irish option. If you want to feel passion, watch a hurling match with Irish commentary.

5. Tax credit for small businesses / community groups for dual language signage. I know signage gets a bad rap on this thread but I'm 100pc of the opinion that if you can't see Irish you can pretend it doesn't exist.

None of these break the bank, all are practical, none are oppressive and they all link in with practical needs and basic structures already in place through schools.

If we wanted to go mad altogether I would revisit my previous comment about creating online classes through Irish for adults covering other practical / creative subjects. A real practical way to keep up the Irish you have gone to the trouble to learn!

beggars_bush

Tax credit for small businesses that offer face to face service in Irish

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

School tours are an interesting one but is it practicable considering the amount of paperwork schools have to go through regarding insurance and parental permission? Always heard it was a pain in the ass for them.

Anyway - first step is ALWAYS going to be start treaching it as a langauge, not as a school subject. If this isn't happening, everything else is a waste of time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Evade

More quality* Irish language entertainment would go a long way to keeping people's interest up but it can't compete with English language entertainment. Even if the entirety of Ireland's entertainment output switched to Irish overnight it still couldn't compete.

*When I was younger I loved Justice League (Unlimited) but TG4 had the rights to it here and I refused to watch it because the dub was dreadful.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118308030#Comment_118308030

You'd need writers who were 1 - good, 2 - knew their audience and 3 - bilingual. In that order of importance. I don't know if Eoin Colfer is bilungual or not, but if he is, he'd be perfect. If he's not, he'd still be perfect but no one with the power to hire him is ever going to admit this.

Hotblack Desiato

1. Free additional Irish classes in schools during mid term/Easter/holidays to help parents struggling with cost of childcare. Particular focus on primary school ages to consolidate or catch up on material.

Wow. Kids will just love that. Instead of holidays you're getting Irish classes instead. Kids need a break from formal learning every so often, that's why they're there. Who is going to teach these? The existing teachers need a break too and I'm not sure why you think "more of the same" is going to produce different results.

4. Build the links between Irish and sport. All Gaa match commentary in Irish first with English subtitles or option. Other sports with Irish option. If you want to feel passion, watch a hurling match with Irish commentary.

Again, amazingly blinkered and out of touch with reality. This will just alienate people. I can't imagine the "option" lasting long, TG4 refuse to provide one for rugby while BBC Alba does. Compulsion in the education system has been massively damaging to Irish and yet you think more forcing it on an unwilling audience is somehow going to produce the outcome you want.

The only way a mass revival of Irish will occur is if the population want it to.

It should be very obvious after 99 years of this delusion, the population do not want it to.

The school system provides the support for those who either already live through Irish or who wish to graduate to this level of Irish in adulthood (with further study)

While turning most of the rest off Irish for life.

walshb

The fact that we have to make the language a compulsory subject in school tells me all I need to know. If it was choice, pretty much nobody would choose it. It’s a dead language being constantly forced on people.

and it has become even less a language due to Ireland today being so multicultural

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319187#Comment_118319187

In fairness, the first one world work if it was just relaxed conversational practice and not actual classes. Actual extra classes world kill of any last lingering interest the kids had.

Upforthematch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118319187#Comment_118319187

@Hotblack Desiato if only 2 of the 5 suggestions receive scathing criticism from you does that mean the others pass?

1. additional classes - rather than "irish grinds" think more taster teenage gaeltacht experience. Plenty of college students on holidays.. / summer gaeltacht / part time teachers might want the hours. The great thing about languages is that with clever lesson plans it can be more casual and complement the day to day curriculum.

4 Re. sports commentary - before you get your knickers in a twist I did say both languages. Do feel oppressed or something anytime where is a good game on Tg4? My heart bleeds. Watching sports is one of the easiest things to watch in another language.

You keep talking about X or Y turning people off Irish for life. A switch can be turned on or off. All it sounds like you want to do is pull the plug and that is something the population does not support.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118321812#Comment_118321812

The fact that we have to make the language a compulsory subject in school tells me all I need to know. If it was choice, pretty much nobody would choose it.

Well, of course but, like religion, there are too many vested interests at play. It seems that making work for mediocre to poor Irish teachers, and religion teachers, is more important than giving pupils real choice and allowing them to concentrate on the subjects they enjoy / have an aptitude for at LC.

The Irish teachers who are good at their jobs need not worry as there will still be plenty of work for them.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324681#Comment_118324681

As much as I think Irish should be optional I don't think if it was it would open up more subject choice.

Maybe my secondary school was particulatly rigid but as I remember it the Leaving Cert choices were French/Geography, Physics/Biology, Technical Drawing and Construction or Engineering/Home Economics and Art. No Chemistry or History at all and the foreign language alternated between French and German for every new first year class.

Hotblack Desiato

That's because your school was crap, tbh.

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118325271#Comment_118325271

Entirely possible and it's getting uncomfortably close to 20 years ago so I don't know what it's like now. But how many similarly crap schools are there?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324943#Comment_118324943

If it's a choice between Irish and even one other subject it's still more choice.

Upforthematch

https://tuairisc.ie/amhras-leirithe-ag-an-taoiseach-faoi-chursai-nua-gaeilge-don-ardteist/

Interesting comments from Mícheál Martin today about changing the leaving cert Irish programme. He thinks the school should be about creating love for the language and not difficult exams. He points to the success of gaelcholaistí in fostering a love of the language and students that can speak the language. Encouraging article.

Evade

Exams are kind of the point of schools, no?

Hotblack Desiato

Meanwhile we are going to turn our entire public sector into the plaything of the language lobby.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bill-to-guarantee-irish-speakers-rights-set-to-become-law-1.4756886