Michael D Higgins insists he is President of Ireland, refuses to commemorate partition

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117027#Comment_118117027

this is inaccurate and nothing more then wishful thinking.

the civil rights campaign couldn't go any further as they were being murdered on the streets, bloody sunday was the final straw and gave the provos a huge recruiting tool which could not have been undone until the GFA.

the civil rights movement absolutely tried their best and were heroes, but they weren't winning anything, and suggesting they were is just deluded and is not tallying with the evidence.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119167#Comment_118119167

Would you say the French revolution was wrong? What about Britain bombing Germany? Can you give me an example were violence was the right course of action?

I can't speak to what those people went through that decided to take violent action.

The IRA helped bring in equality and democracy and a path to a UI agreed by all sides. It may have happened through other means, but it certainly wasn't looking like it. The BA behaved like animals.

I would say the new generation born after the GFA will judge politicians on what they deliver not faux political morals through a biased lens.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119288#Comment_118119288

Revisionist nonsense to be fair. These same Nationalists by a huge majority rejected violent Republicans in the ballot box during the troubles.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118119704#Comment_118119704

I dont even know where to begin with this post. Bordering on lunatic Conspiracy theory stuff.

On the last part. NI is part of the UK because the people of NI mandate it.

Do you believe in democracy?

Do you believe in the GFA?

If you say 'yes' to both of the above, then you conceded by proxy that NI is today, yesterday, and tomorrow part of the UK.

Otherwise, go and join Republican SF and their dissident friends who blew up Omagh, because those are your bedfellows.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121112#Comment_118121112

meaningless as they supported them via other means.

they were protecting themselves from the rath of britain by not voting for sf or similar.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121117#Comment_118121117

you are incorrect, i conceeded nothing of the sort.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121117#Comment_118121117

No mark.

The GFA agreed that as long as a majority want to be in the UK that is what would happen. Nothing more. The aspiration to change that is entirely legitimate. YOU legitimised that when you voted for the GFA.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121181#Comment_118121181

The majority?

How and what proof do you have. Go on. You made the claim, now prove it.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121195#Comment_118121195

"As long as the majority.."

Yeap, and guess what Francie, the majority wants it.

They want it today, yesterday and tomorrow. If the people in NI want to stay in the Union for the next 800 years, then NI will remain part of the UK for the next 800 years.. and there ain't nothing you or I or SF can do about it.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121279#Comment_118121279

Providing the union exists. The union is very precarious and with the growing identity of younger people as English or Scots rather than British it would appear it is coming to an end. We have just seen by London choosing the NIP over a backstop that most English don't care about a border between them and the North as long as they get their brexit.

This is just as worrying for unionists as a growing UI push in the North. Actually it is probably more worrying. The North just makes up 2.5% and are powerless over what the English and Scots do. They might find they're no longer in a union because of political developments in Britain rather than Ireland.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121279#Comment_118121279

Yes there is something I can do about it Mark and you legitimised it when you legitimised the aspiration to a United Ireland. I can reject Partition and campaign for a UI.

All your favourite political parties will be doing it soon (which negates your 'tomorrow'). In fact every single political party in the south will be supporting it...unless partitionists change the mind of one of them or form a new party.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121875#Comment_118121875

You can campaign for it, advocate for it of course... I guess it's better than trying to kill people for it like in the past.. however, all and said done, if the majority want to remain in the UI... well, as they say, you are **** out of luck.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121943#Comment_118121943

You do know people were killed to keep NI in the Union too I hope? (Sometimes I do wonder if you realise that)

And as was famously said before Mark, 'I only have to get lucky once' you guys have to be lucky all the time and it seems to me your luck is running out.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120075#Comment_118120075

The PIRA did not help in bringing equality and democracy, in fact they brought the opposite, as the many examples of the horrors they inflicted on their own community testify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_ad_bellum

Look at the theories on a just war or on a right to war, and you will see that the PIRA's terrorist campaign fails every test.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122580#Comment_118122580

Theories are just theories.

The fact that the people support the party they overwhelmingly do, since free and fair elections were held after the GFA (even before it as previously shown)tells us all we need to know.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122580#Comment_118122580

I'm not trying to justify violence then again I've not had to live in an environment were it might be called for. I know enough not to judge people on a situation I've only heard about and not lived.

IMO the IRA were felt needed or they wouldn't have come to be or lasted.

Violence brought the British to the negotiation table and the resulting peace.

Keeping a peace while one side gets treated poorly will never last.

The British state, if they weren't so nasty, would have been wise to treat all communities equally from day one.

Michael D. and everyone else knows there is still a very bitter anti-Irish element at home and in the North that pines for the days were the Irish public and catholic community up north knew their place.

He was well out of it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123479#Comment_118123479

Nothing that the British put on the table in 1998 was unavailable in 1969.

That they only ended the Unionist veto in the Anglo Irish Agreement is unforgivable in terms of responsibility.

The AIA paved the road for all that came after, but there is zero excuse for that point not being reached much much earlier. Had they removed the Unionist veto in 69 nobody would have died and countless lives would not have been ruined.

But 'something something the 'RA etc etc'.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123551#Comment_118123551

Nothing that was on the table in 1998 wasn't on the table in Sunningdale.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123717#Comment_118123717

Incorrect as usual

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123717#Comment_118123717

Rejected by those who identified as British aided by the British. And did not have everyone at the table.

Clung on to by the political party rejected again and again by those who Irish.

PeaSea

This is a very complicated and emotive subject. For what its worth, I (coming from a Unionist upbringing) think that the IRA campaign had 2 effects : it brought the UK government to the table but it also hardened the attitudes of Northern Unionists. Its really difficult to see never mind agree with someones political opinion when they're trying to shoot you or blow you up.

Now that I'm (much) older I can see things that were hidden from us in a previous non-internet age. We weren't taught Irish history - my generation genuinely didn't know how Catholics were being treated in 1960s N. Ireland and to look back at it now fills me with shame.

Basically what I'm saying is a lot of things were done wrong from a lot of people, and the best we can do is remember, learn, heal and not repeat them.

I saw this last night, its the premiere of photographer Paul Seawrights new exhibition about healing in Rwanda, might be worth a viewing (it is a bit heavy in places) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67OTOlwEj6c

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121398#Comment_118121398

What growing United Ireland push in the North?

https://www.ark.ac.uk/ARK/sites/default/files/2021-06/update142.pdf

This is one of the more in-depth studies in the North.

"Compared to the previous year’s results, we have seen a 4 percentage point increase in those saying that the longterm policy for Northern Ireland should be for Irish unification (26%). There was also an increase in those saying that they would vote in favour of Irish unification (30%) if a referendum were to be held tomorrow. The differential between the two shows that there can be different logics behind voting intentions in a binary (Yes/No) poll as compared to long-term constitutional policy preference."

So yes to slight growth, but amounting to a push, when support is at best stuck at 30%? I don't think so.

blanch152

Now the most interesting comment in the whole survey is the following:

"Those who are Neither unionist nor nationalist constitute the largest proportion of respondents (42%), and this includes people from who would have considered themselves unionist or nationalist five years ago."

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123950#Comment_118123950

TBF, there was an element happy to be top dog and they were never going to accept equality. They fight it to this day.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124038#Comment_118124038

The numbers are where the numbers in favour of Scottish Independence where when that referendum was called. We saw what happened when a proposal was made by the Scottish government.

Same thing would happen here. That is why there is now a growing push for that referendum to be called and for the Irish to publish their plan.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124046#Comment_118124046

It feeds into your dream of a continuation of partition.

Is it all about not giving the shinners a win? If we get a UI do you fear there'll be no stopping SF? Im trying to understand why you seem to enjoy supporting partition and pissing on any talk of a UI at ever chance. It's more than saying 'one day maybe'.

You seem to have a hate on.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124115#Comment_118124115

What a limited worldview you have. You see everything in black and white, win or lose. I often feel sad reading your posts.

I don't have a dream of a continuation of partition, that is the reality. I have watched the people of Northern Ireland change, seen the rise of the new generation rejecting the dual sectarianism of the past and I rejoice. It is something to be happy about.

A partitioned Ireland makes some people in the North unhappy. A united Ireland makes some people in the North unhappy. If a new generation is growing up looking for a third way that everyone can be satisfied with, that is something to be embraced, to be cherished and admired and to be supported. Ultimately, those who want either of the old solutions are trying to make some others unhappy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124129#Comment_118124129

What is this "new way",a ni state has been tried and failed utterly?

Partition isnt something to celebrate,no matter how much ffg wish it so,its failed utterly and left a massive portion of our islanf poor and deosnt make any sense perpetuating it...it hasnt worked by now and never will

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124129#Comment_118124129

You misunderstood. I'm asking you questions not making statements. Instead of answering you are making assumptions. You seem to link a UI to a win for SF. You quickly move any discussion on a UI to the IRA.

There is no third way. It will remain as is until we see a united Ireland. If a minority are unhappy, that's democracy.

I think you believe a UI will support or excuse SF in some way and damage the chances of FF/FG staying top dogs and no longer pretending to have the moral high ground.

FF/FG ignored the Irish caught behind partition. It suits them to keep partition.

A bitter minority wanting to commemorate the B specials, will always be unhappy. We know they'd love a return to calling the shots.

Your President was right not to play along.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118127106#Comment_118127106

I think you have hit a nail smack bang on the head here, a lot of partitionists (maybe not all) will have a Paulian conversion once FG and FF commit to advocating for a UI.

They cannot be seen to advocate for it now because that might align them with the Shinners. Horror of horrors!