Abortion in America

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110721#Comment_118110721

Jesus. That's a lot to process.

Not a big fan of men I take it. We shouldn't have any input on abortion? I assume you don't think men should have any obligation to pay for a child they didn't want then too?

Or are you inconsistent as to a man's role in all this?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113820#Comment_118113820

There have been a variety of cases in the US where men's sperm has been taken from them without their consent. Even to the point of where contraceptives being used, but the sperm being collected by the woman. Or the sperm that has been submitted to sperm banks being taken by court order, in spite of the mans wants on the matter. Hell, there's been cases where the paternity of the child is shown to be that of another man (where the wife cheated), but the husband being required to provide for that child, the same as it would be for his own.

I always find it interesting the way people talk about women's rights to their body, but there's little consideration for a man's rights, especially when often society expects the man to step up to support both the woman and the child (even when the woman is fully capable of supporting them herself).

And no... I don't need to "get over it". It should be a discussion that adults have, and in a society where we are supposedly desiring equality for the genders, we should be seeking fair representation and involvement for both groups. Don't agree? Fine.. but I notice the only posters who tend to talk like you just did "get over it", are those advocating total rights for women in these matters.

Hotblack Desiato

Discuss away, but in the end it's not his body carrying the pregnancy and not his decision to continue to do so - or not.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113915#Comment_118113915

I would love to read more about those cases. Have you any links?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118114672#Comment_118114672

Not as such. I remember seeing news reports in the media... but here's what a quick search provided.

When a child is born to a mother who is married, the law in most states presumes that the husband is the father. Likewise, if a child is born and the mother later marries her partner, the law may presume that the husband is the father. In some states, there is an irrefutable presumption of this. In these states, if a child is born during the marriage, the husband is legally the father even if a DNA test later shows someone else is the father. In other states, this presumption can be overcome if the father actively rebuts this presumption. However, there is usually a very limited deadline by which a husband can refute paternity, such as two years after the child is born. If he does not rebut this presumption, he loses the right to later challenge it and can be obligated to support the child.

[https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/can-i-be-required-to-pay-child-support-if-the-child-isn-t-mine-46953] (Sorry, not sure how to embed links anymore)

Or if you do a search for Sperm Theft, Wiki has a decent page:

SF vs. TM (1996). S.F. appealed an order to pay child support, citing that he "did not knowingly and willfully participate in any sexual activity with the mother of the minor child." He had passed out intoxicated at a party in the home of a woman (T.M.) and was raped by her while he was unconscious. S.F. argued that being compelled to pay child support for a child conceived as a result of non-consensual intercourse deprived him of property rights and equal protection under the law. He produced expert testimony that it was possible for a male to get an erection and ejaculate while unconscious. While the court acknowledged that the mother's misconduct was "reprehensible" and a "misdemeanor", it nevertheless rejected his argument, stating that "the child is an innocent party... any wrongful conduct on the part of the mother should not alter the father's duty to provide support for the child." S.F. was ordered to pay $106.04 per month in child support, plus $8,960.64 in arrears.[35][36]

or

A New York court ordered Deon Francois to pay child support to his ex-wife Chaamel after she forged his signature and allegedly had it notarized with a stolen seal and used his frozen sperm sample to conceive a daughter through a fertility clinic. Francois sued the New York University clinic for $9 million, and insisted that they should pay the child support.[42]

It's really not difficult to find a wide variety of cases/articles on such things if you're interested in doing the actual search. I could have found articles from magazines/news sites themselves, but they tend to be dismissed out of hand (and when it comes to the US, rightly so, in most cases). Still, there are plenty of accounts by men who have apparently been tricked, or made to pay when they, themselves, weren't the father, or had their sperm stolen, in one form or another.

osarusan

I'm going to ask the same question I've asked before to people who post that the (potential) father should have some 'say' or some 'input' when it comes to a (potential) mother deciding whether to have a baby or not...what form can that say or input actually take?

Do you advocate for giving the man the power to veto an abortion? Or force one?

And if not (because I doubt you do advocate for that), then what does having a say, or having input, actually mean?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116849#Comment_118116849

I haven't really thought that much about it, so these are just relatively vague suggestions.

But I think it should be taken into consideration from a legal standpoint.

I'll give an example of a friend of mine. He and his wife really wanted to have a kid of their own, she had been married previously and had a son from that marriage. So, for years they tried for the wife to become pregnant, and eventually, she did. Which was great for a few months, but she started to get depressed over the whole thing, and then, decided on her own, that she no longer wanted the child. She went and ended the pregnancy without speaking to her husband, and now they're getting divorced due to the betrayal that the husband felt. After all, in spite of all the problems involved, they had decided together to have the child, and then, she went ahead to abort the pregnancy without any consultation from him. Now, hes facing the likely court decision that he will be required to support the wife, and her son, after the divorce. The aborting of the child is not considered a particularly good reason for a divorce, so, he's being made to pay for instigating the divorce proceedings, even though, she is far wealthier than he is. He's still considered responsible for both.

I honestly don't know if a man should be able to veto an abortion. I think when a couple are not married, then the decision should rest entirely on the woman.. however with marriage comes a sharing of decision making, and the respect given to your partner. Yes, yes, others have raised the abusive nature of some marriages, but it's not as if we're still living in the 50s. Women in such positions have many ways to get free. I would say that within a marriage, an abortion should require the consent of both parties, and if a woman decides to go ahead regardless then, it should be counted against her, should either party decide to go for a divorce.

Not sure what else I can really say about the situation.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117035#Comment_118117035

has abuse of women suddenly stopped because it is no longer the 1950s? and as for the nonsense below it seems to me that you want to be living back in the 1950s. Abortion is a medical procedure. A woman should not require the consent of anybody else for a medical procedure. Do you think a husbands consent should be required if a woman opted for a hysterectomy?

 I would say that within a marriage, an abortion should require the consent of both parties, and if a woman decides to go ahead regardless then, it should be counted against her, should either party decide to go for a divorce.

osarusan

I don't have much disagreement with the idea that men can often expect to get treated poorly in divorce settlement and in terms of custody of children and so on. Courts in most parts of the world are skewed that way.

You mentioned in a marriage, if a woman unilaterally got an abortion, it should count against her in terms of divorce proceedings, but that's still a separate issue to the question of whether a (potential) father should have the power to veto/enforce an abortion, as it's more about creating consequences for a unilateral abortion, rather than creating powers to veto/enforce one.

I think it's just a biological inequality which can't ever really be balanced by legislation tbh. Ideas like the 'paper abortion' in Denmark and Sweden are attempts to introduce some kind of balance, and I'm not fundamentally opposed to that concept, but they don't go near the issue of power to veto/enforce an abortion, just with the issues surrounding financial/legal responsibility.

Igotadose

It's important to not look at the 'fatherhood' issue in the US with Irish eyes. In the US, there are basically no child supports for unmarried women, so the government is very inclined to support women in fatherhood claims because this way, the state doesn't end up coming up with 'something' for the woman. In Ireland, the state is very generous (imo to a fault but that's another discussion, cf. Margaret Cash's histrionics in the media a couple years ago). So, men in Ireland, especially unmarried ones, can feck off into the wind and not have fear of their wages being garnished for child support. Yes, I've seen the vanishingly few cases in Ireland that resulted in some support for the wife, but they are few and far between, and heck, if you had a kid who the hell are you to bugger off anyway? It happens much less often in the US because it's easy for the woman to sicc the authorities on the father, and those authorities have lots of 'reach.' The US is a nations of laws and consequences happen.

IMO it's madness to go down the slippery slope of 'reproductive decisions as part of the marriage contract.' There's actually no such thing as a marriage contract - the only legal document I'm aware of is a marriage license, or in Ireland a marriage certificate. I can't find a current Irish marriage certificate online, but to order one you basically state who you are. In the US it's pretty similar, it includes the names of people witnessing your marriage (so, proving implicitly you are who you are.)

There are no rights nor responsibilities spelled out, probably all for the good. Imagine if women could compel income and responsibilities on the husband, the 'men's rights' types would be running for the hills.

Legal liability is more about co-ownership of assets and some reluctance on the part of the state to impinge on the marriage, like not being able to compel a woman to testify against her husband. But again, these are all outside the 'marriage' in point of fact.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117217#Comment_118117217

On this part

"I don't have much disagreement with the idea that men can often expect to get treated poorly in divorce settlement and in terms of custody of children and so on. Courts in most parts of the world are skewed that way."

He's definitely getting shattered if he has to pay paternity money to a child that isn't his after a divorce, where is the child's natural father, should he not be paying?

Never been divorced so not sure if this would just be an American thing or is it prevalent in Ireland/UK/Europe too?

wench

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117035#Comment_118117035

Yes, yes, others have raised the abusive nature of some marriages, but it's not as if we're still living in the 50s. Women in such positions have many ways to get free. I would say that within a marriage, an abortion should require the consent of both parties

It must be nice to be able to throw out ideas and just handwave away the consequences. Women growing up in the shadow of the 8th amendment have never had that luxury.

At what point would a woman fleeing abuse be considered to be outside of the marriage? When she says she's leaving? When the divorce comes through? That process would need to speed up a hell of a lot if so!

Hotblack Desiato

It really is odd how anti-abortion people always have an anecdote to fit every scenario... whether it's a "friend" who had an abortion and regretted it, a "friend" who was going to have an abortion but didn't and is relieved, a "friend" whose wife had an abortion without telling him, a "friend" who was told their foetus would die but it didn't, a "friend" who gave birth to a baby with Downs syndrome and now their life is lollipops and rainbows every day, etc. etc.

Whatever the scenario, they have a 100% genuine anecdote to fit. It really strains credulity...

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118117093#Comment_118117093

Do you think a husbands consent should be required if a woman opted for a hysterectomy?

How about a man needing to provide proof of his wife or partner's permission before being allowed to have a vasectomy...? That'd be an interesting one... or maybe a guy with low sperm count not being allowed to have a w**k and have to save them up for the mrs!

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118914#Comment_118118914

The MRA crowd would have a conniption.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118118906#Comment_118118906

I loved the line here during the referendum debate: "Anti-choice are economical with the truth."

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118113868#Comment_118113868

having an input is not the same as requiring their consent.

the difference between child support and an abortion is the child was never born, therefore the support was never necessary. Who's to say the father of an unwanted child would even pay child support in this first place, but they're just anti-abortion?

abortion is a woman's choice because it affects HER body. God forbid if she carries it to term the father should pay towards what they helped create.

the two situations are completely different to each other and in no way, shape or form comparable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120469#Comment_118120469

Two people (a man and a woman) create a child/foetus. If a woman decides the child/foetus is not to be born, a man should accept it? If a woman decides a child is to be born, a man should accept it and be required to support their "clump of cells" despite not wanting them to be born?

Do you think a man should have no right to sign away all rights and responsibility to a child who is born against his wishes?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118116849#Comment_118116849

It's a very valid question. I don't think a man should be able to tell a woman what she can do with her body. I also don't believe that a woman should be able to force a man to support a child that he never wanted.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120613#Comment_118120613

unmarried fathers do have no rights already, so there's that. you have to apply for guardianship.

And no I don't think that because in the end its the child who will suffer if the mother cannot afford to have the baby. at that point I think the wants and wishes of either parent are an irrelevance & it's what's best for the kid. If the mother can comfortably afford to care for them via their income or however else the child support can be saved for when their older.

Absolutely it takes two to make a baby and if a couple get pregnant and split up or whatever, if a baby is born its both of their responsibility. this goes the other way around too, if a mother gives birth and wants to leave the child with the father, she should have to pay.

if neither can be arsed but didn't want to abort, there's adoption.

however, there is simply no possibility a man can get pregnant & therefore the decision to have an abortion is not one we need concern ourselves with.

no situation exists where any man should have to consent to a woman having an abortion or any other medical or cosmetic procedure. and vice versa.

EDIT:

I missed originally but honestly mate if you're gonna compare a foetus to a baby carried to either full term or not so premature it can survive then honestly just don't even reply to me again. Like honest to God.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120613#Comment_118120613

But if a woman is raped and wishes to abort she shouldn't be allowed? That's the crux of the thread that the Texan laws do not even allow for abortion in the case of rape once "fetal heartbeat" has been detected.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120748#Comment_118120748

I've never said that.

Timberrrrrrrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120754#Comment_118120754

My bad was meant to quote another poster and messed up 🙈

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118120734#Comment_118120734

If the mother can't afford to have the baby then she shouldn't have it or give the baby up for adoption.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123504#Comment_118123504

and making women have a fathers consent would potentially put them into a position where they can't support them by themselves and I'm not sure if you're a woman who's had a baby, but my partner has had two and will tell you it would not be easy to give a baby you bore up for adoption even if you would struggle financially. There's a level of emotional attachment that can't be described is what she tells me.

Regardless, if you were happy to have either unprotected sex or risk it even with contraception you should be responsible to support what you helped create. That however does *not* entitle you to a say in what a woman chooses to do with her body.

Are we going to ignore the physical and emotional strain a pregnancy puts on a woman's body and mind? What about the women who don't survive child birth? Would you be able to live with yourself if you refused to consent to an abortion for whatever reason, moral or otherwise, if the woman you denied was to die giving birth? I certainly wouldn't.

I was accused earlier of "not being a fan of men" which is nonsense because I am one, but that does not mean I'm a fan of this crazy notion that some men have they must have a say in what women do or don't do. An abortion is a woman's choice about her body. Like it or not you're not aborting a baby it's a foetus it is scientifically factual that it is little more than a collection of cells, which survive only because of the woman. without her it's impossible to a point, well before which an abortion is illegal.

It's completely irrelevant what anyone but the woman choosing or considering the abortion thinks. Forcing women to have a fathers consent will lead to a lot of either pissing off to England or baby's born to mothers who don't want them. And this will be done because of moral reasons, I'm sure, by anti abortion crowds. You don't have to like abortions, no ones going to make you have one, so you therefore have no right to decide who does.

I would say too, I'm interested in how many people who agree with this are women or women who are anti abortion or "pro life"..

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123627#Comment_118123627

I am pro choice. I also can see the validity in the argument that a man should not have to financially support a child he does not want, same as how a women should not have to carry a child she does not want.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123627#Comment_118123627

you are factually incorrect, a fetus is a baby as fetus is the medical term used right up to birth, for which the day before birth the unborn baby is just as much of a baby biologically as it is the day it is born.

also, after a certain point the baby actually can survive outside the womb, all be it with medical help.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123764#Comment_118123764

also, after a certain point the baby actually can survive outside the womb, all be it with medical help.

and at that point the law does not generally allow for abortion except in the case of medical problems.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123807#Comment_118123807

i never said it did so i am unsure of what your point is?

i was just responding to a couple of statements made by the poster and correcting them on the state of play.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123844#Comment_118123844

i'm not sure what your point is. your definition of "baby" didn't correct anything in the post you quoted.