Abortion in America

nullzero · 05-09-2021 10:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851236#Comment_117851236

The one thing I agree with you on is the two party system being untenable.

If you want to understand why American conservatives have become so aligned with as you put it, nutters, you need look no further than what has happened to American society post 9/11, America changed in such an immense way that is almost forgotten about twenty years on from that event, freedoms and rights forfeited for the "greater good" notions of patriotism ramped up to incredible extremes an "US V Them" mentality openly encouraged the space for liberal ideologies away from the major cities dwindled whilst anything traditional was put on a pedestal all whilst the economic situation for people in traditionally conservative areas worsened. The perfect breeding ground for the ideologies you find so repugnant was created.

9/11 itself was an event facilitated by Afghanistan which was under Taliban rule at the time, a group who came into existence as a result of the soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 80s. Everything is connected in some way, the left and right wings affect each other directly and indirectly all through history, if you feel rationalising that is facile then more fool you.

You ended your post by saying that America is on a path to a hell of a lot of instability, I wonder then how you would describe America over the last few years if not unstable?

Tell me how · 05-09-2021 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851196#Comment_117851196

Again, I've pointed out acts by sitting Conservatives, you're responding with what looks like students advocating for communism. Do you not see any disparity there?

You're not comparing like with like.

Would you accept a video from a Klan meeting as evidence of conservative ideals, or call them extremists?

05-09-2021 11:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117850854#Comment_117850854

Life exists outside the Empire. Both "sides" are evil war mongers who bomb, scar, and starve children and civilians. Both sides support the Israeli supremacist state. Both sides ally with the ugliest religious countries in the Middle East, like Saudi.

There's nothing in the least "conservative" about stating that, it is the standard left wing case against the genocidal American empire. All Americans are complicit.

I posted a picture of a dying Yemeni child. If you do live in America try and stop that rather than whine about the evil conservatives within the US. Your side is in power.

Tell me how · 05-09-2021 11:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851397#Comment_117851397

Yes, As epitomized with the Patriot Act, and the weaponization of the concept of patriotism used to this day to dismiss anyone calling for improvements in how society operates.

But it wasn't liberals who did either of these things was it?

06-09-2021 12:43am

I agree 9/11 absolutely screwed up American society. It was a terrible incident, but I think the issue is quite complex in the sense that it had a more profound impact on their sense of security and confidence that is often admitted to.

They brush off regular and horrific mass shootings, because they’re domestic in origin and there’s a rather odd gun culture, but 9/11 seemed to send them into a major security lockdown mentality in way that I don’t think I’ve ever seen in Europe or elsewhere.

Many European have endured horrible terrorist attacks over the decades and also have a memory of wars that occurred close to home, not across seas. There’s a robustness in the European response that tends to mean people dust themselves off, pick themselves up and life goes on as normal, not letting terrorism actually inflict terror, which is its aim.

I think though it’s complex in the USA. These culture wars go back a long way too, particularly the race relations issues which are linked very directly to what is absolutely living history of the struggle for civil rights. I mean pre 1960s US has a lot in common with Apartheid South Africa, it just tends to market itself to itself in a way that somehow seems to imagine that stuff happened somewhere else, maybe in a movie.

Then you’ve also had issues with extremely socially conservative movements at times. It’s a country that has had full prohibition of alcohol, quite strict moralised censorship and so on.

On the other side of it it’s also been at the forefront of many liberalising movements too over the years. It’s a complex place.

Aspects of the USA feel like perhaps Britain or Western Europe without the post WWII shift towards social democratic systems. At times it almost feels like the US is a bit like Edwardian society just continued as was, getting all the tech innovations, but perhaps relatively fewer social innovations, particularly around welfare and so on.

I don’t think you can really sum it up other than to say that the USA is in a period or turmoil at the moment. Is it unprecedented? Maybe not - look back at the 1960s and there are a lot of parallels.

nullzero · 06-09-2021 7:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851449#Comment_117851449

Sorry but that argument doesn't hold water.

College campuses are a reflection of what becomes increasingly acceptable, particularly with regard to how the left has evolved over the last half decade or more, in the mainstream down the line.

There is a thread on this site telling the reader that the National Party are now a part of mainstream Irish politics and that they constitute a clear danger to the country, when in actual fact they are a poorly organized rabble of cretins. The thread has an insane number of posts, most of them telling us all how the sky is falling in from a liberal perspective. So, what's good for the Goose surely must be good for the gander.

ArmaniJeanss · 06-09-2021 8:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851996#Comment_117851996

That 'National Party are now mainstream' thread was started by a poster who is clearly a supporter of that party and wants the thread title to be true. So I don't think that thread title can be held up as an example that proves anything. (Ideally the thread title should have been modded to a generic 'NP discussion' or at least have a question mark at the end of it.

nullzero · 06-09-2021 8:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117852111#Comment_117852111

The majority of posts in the thread are scare mongering about how the national party pose a direct threat to the future of Ireland. The thread has around 58 pages of that type of discussion, so you are in effect, judging the book by its cover.

Timberrrrrrrr · 07-09-2021 11:14pm

How does this even work? Are they suddenly going to ban rape? Will rape no longer be a thing in Texas?🤷‍♂️

https://twitter.com/KXAN_News/status/1435294934555189258?s=19

Mr. CooL ICE · 08-09-2021 8:27am

^^ By giving every potential rape victim a gun. Or something like that

Igotadose · 08-09-2021 8:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861792#Comment_117861792

It's Texas. Why wouldn't they legalize it?

Hotblack Desiato · 10-09-2021 12:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117839354#Comment_117839354

So a married woman is her husband's chattel.

Fuuuuuck that.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-09-2021 12:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861899#Comment_117861899

They'll probably just legalise rape...

Tell me how · 10-09-2021 4:35am

Good move by DoJ

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/09/1035467999/justice-department-sues-texas-over-new-abortion-ban

Garland noted the law deputizes private citizens "to serve as bounty hunters authorized to recover at least $10,000 per claim from individuals who facilitate a woman's exercise of her constitutional rights."

He pointed out the law has thus far had its intended effect.

"Because this statute makes it too risky for an abortion clinic to stay open, abortion providers have ceased providing services," he said. "This leaves women in Texas unable to exercise their constitutional rights and unable to obtain judicial review at the very moment they need it."

Igotadose · 10-09-2021 8:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870760#Comment_117870760

Yeeeah, but it's a suit and reading it, a very complex one. This will, sadly, take a while to work through in the courts. The first judge to hear it will be an Obama appointee.

Tell me how · 10-09-2021 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870898#Comment_117870898

Absolutely, but it is a pretty fast response to the actions in Texas which does put their cards on the table. Let all the GOP big wigs have to defend taking womens rights just to disagree with an action by the DoJ under Biden.

Timberrrrrrrr · 19-09-2021 11:36am

Could this be the first test of the new laws in Texas?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/s/opinions/2021/09/18/texas-abortion-provider-alan-braid/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWJpZCI6IjI4NTEyNDM3IiwicmVhc29uIjoiZ2lmdCIsIm5iZiI6MTYzMjAyNzg3OSwiaXNzIjoic3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucyIsImV4cCI6MTYzMzIzNzQ3OSwiaWF0IjoxNjMyMDI3ODc5LCJqdGkiOiI3Njc2YTFkOC03ZmM1LTQ2MTgtOTM3NS0xYWRlODMwYjcwODciLCJ1cmwiOiJodHRwczovL3d3dy53YXNoaW5ndG9ucG9zdC5jb20vb3BpbmlvbnMvMjAyMS8wOS8xOC90ZXhhcy1hYm9ydGlvbi1wcm92aWRlci1hbGFuLWJyYWlkLyJ9.nqHkZbycqFCvizzNB3LywW5OOmJT9MeuskMLVciMLkg

"And that is why, on the morning of Sept. 6, I provided an abortion to a woman who, though still in her first trimester, was beyond the state’s new limit. I acted because I had a duty of care to this patient, as I do for all patients, and because she has a fundamental right to receive this care.

I fully understood that there could be legal consequences — but I wanted to make sure that Texas didn’t get away with its bid to prevent this blatantly unconstitutional law from being tested."

Manky O Toole · 19-09-2021 12:21pm

So Texas is a pro-life stronghold? No sure what the big deal about that is?

Timberrrrrrrr · 19-09-2021 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910655#Comment_117910655

Consider this scenario

You have a 12 year old daughter.

Your daughter is raped and is now pregnant.

Your daughter asks for an abortion.

You facilitate your daughters abortion.

Your neighbour/family members/work colleague finds out that you helped your daughter get an abortion.

That person can now sue you for $10,000.

Do you think that is a good thing?

Manky O Toole · 19-09-2021 12:30pm

Lol at jumping to the most extreme example. She can travel to another state for the abortion.

Probably good idea to get a better job so you don't have to live in poor people neighbourhood where such things happen.

Timberrrrrrrr · 19-09-2021 12:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910685#Comment_117910685

Taking then to another state to get an abortion would be against Texan law and would still leave you open to prosecution.

Ugh....just noticed join date/post count. I really need to check for re-regs before engaging 🙄

On the list you go.

astrofool · 19-09-2021 12:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910685#Comment_117910685

I thought Texas was stopping the crime of rape, are "poor people neighbourhood"s not being included in that? What "poor people neighbourhood"'s in Ireland aren't worthy of our protection anymore? Do you think that "poor people neighbourhood"'s are just in constant purge mode and anything goes?

What a sh*tty response you made :) You'll now be the "poor person neighbourhood" poster (was it in London per chance?) to go along with the "Rashford" poster.

Manky O Toole · 19-09-2021 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910697#Comment_117910697

If you live in a part of Texas where 12yos are being impregnated through rape, then I think it's fair to say you live in some awful gettho.

No idea what the London Rashford comment relates to.

Igotadose · 19-09-2021 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117910703#Comment_117910703

You don't understand anything about rape statistics, then. But, like Mark Twain said: "“It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt”

Billy Mays · 19-09-2021 7:43pm

Only poor people abuse children is an interesting opinion

nj27 · 20-09-2021 4:31pm

It's a case of my baby my choice

nolivesmatter · 20-09-2021 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916125#Comment_117916125

Don't know if you did so purposefully but your statement almost sounds paradoxical. The first half sounds pro life and the second half sounds pro choice.

Igotadose · 20-09-2021 7:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916855#Comment_117916855

Could simply be nonsense, too.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 12:15am

So oral arguments took place in the Supreme Court over the last couple of days, and it looks like some Justices are, at the very least, wavering on their original decision.

Brett Kavanaugh asked a very interesting question to the Texas State lawyers in that could the mechanisms of this law be applied to, say, gun ownership, and it was followed up by Kagan delivering a knockout blow when the solicitor general tried to fob it off by saying those concerns belong at Congress.

Amy Coney Barrett, somewhat surprisingly, also put Texas through their paces by asking similar questions to Kavanaugh, but instead applying it to religious rights.

Roberts seems to have convinced Kavanaugh and Barrett to move closer to him. Both of them already joined Roberts and the liberals in the mask mandate case AND rejecting a challenge to Maine's vaccine mandate for healthcare workers.

The fact both Kavanaugh and ACB raised concerns about how this mechanism of what is in effect vigilantism to keep the federal courts out of it could be applied to other rights closer to their hearts surely means one or both will turn, no?

The scenes if ACB flips and becomes a hero for pro-choice campaigners.

Of course, hard to trust anything Kavanaugh or ACB say as well.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 12:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110414#Comment_118110414

Heard it all before. People like you only give a f*ck until the child is born and after that it's the mother's problem.

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-11-2021 1:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110507#Comment_118110507

"the life that's born has every right to flourish and it's up to society to make sue it does"

But that's not what happens in America, there is little to no social care for poor people.

As for

"they're are a host of drugs that address that issue"

You mean abortion drugs? Because that's how 99% of abortions take place you know.

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-11-2021 1:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110586#Comment_118110586

No, being forced to give birth to a child you cannot afford to raise is an affliction of the poor.

Akrasia · 03-11-2021 1:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110460#Comment_118110460

Abortion, by definition, does not affect 'the life thats born'

Akrasia · 03-11-2021 1:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110414#Comment_118110414

Ok, lets give them a say. Lets ask the clump of cells or mindless embryo:

If you don't want us to abort you, wag your tail three times?

Give them a fair chance, ya know?

BTW, if abortion on demand is wrong, is there another kind of abortion that is less wrong? maybe forced abortion? Where women are given abortions they didn't ask for? or maybe the woman needs to buy a lottery ticket and if they're lucky, they might win an abortion?

Or is it only wrong if the man demands the abortion but the woman wants to keep it? good point, you're on to something there!

Manic Moran · 03-11-2021 1:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110389#Comment_118110389

I wish people will stop mistaking procedural issues for a 'decision on the merits'. Even the oral arguments here have nothing to do with the merits of abortion itself, as was the case for the 'non-action' by the court last month. Every single Justice here can strike down the Texas law on the basis of its basically rendering Constitutional protections irrelevant, whilst next month every Justice can declare abortion to be unlawful without being in any way contradictory or wavering on their original decision.

The only two Justices who did not openly display any skepticism of the Texas statute were Gorsuch and Alito, but they didn't exactly chime in with overwhelming support either.

I don't think anyone was really expecting SB8 was going to survive the Supreme Court. Not because of anything to do with abortion, but because allowing it to stand would remove the Court of its teeth. To their credit, whoever came up with the SB8 concept was a legal genius, and his/her logic may actually be correct, but correct or not, I don't see how the legal structure can realistically survive such a shock to its system and it must be shot down. Only a judge who will take to extremes 'follow the law as written and damn the consequences' would write an opinion allowing such a private enforcement structure to survive.

end of the road · 03-11-2021 2:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110429#Comment_118110429

this claim was previously debunked, hundreds of times.

its essentially one of the machine like scripted rants often spat out, but which are for the most part untrue as a whole.

03-11-2021 2:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117840764#Comment_117840764

you can't be bothered because you can't think of a good response.

that post is absolutely ridiculous and you know it. easy for you to sit and say that especially considering it won't be yourself attending pre natal checks, dealing with morning sickness, pregnancy hormones, cravings, weight gain putting a strain on your back & to end this because it could go on for days the emotional and physical strain giving birth puts on a woman. there's also the potential she may die or require emergency cesarean which is major surgery.

but yeah the man should definitely have a say.

shocking as it might be we don't need a say in everything and those days are long gone. no man has any business in telling a woman or even being involved in the decision of having an abortion unless otherwise requested by the woman who may want it. I couldn't care less if it was their husband, dad or favourite uncle.

by your reasoning two people get married, wife gets pregnant she wants to terminate the husband won't consent she's stuck with a baby she doesn't want, I expect her to resent the husband for making her go through that torture (and despite not giving birth, what with being a man) I've been there for my partner on both occasions and she will describe it as hell.

it's all in all between conception and being fully healed after a good 11-12 months of absolute hell for most women and how dare you suggest that any man has a say - let alone the right to make the decision alongside them when they to experience none of the torment women need to endure for that 11 odd months.

I'm not even a woman and I am **** sick to death of hearing men talk about what's best for women or what they want. sorry, but **** what you want because you're just standing and watching. go push a human out of your dick hole and come talk to me about how you deserve a say then.

just get to **** with that bollocks.

03-11-2021 3:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110722#Comment_118110722

is your argument pro life? and if so is the foundation of that argument honest to god David Bowie?

Lord have mercy.

Shao Kahn · 03-11-2021 6:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110460#Comment_118110460

"What does that say about us?"

Hmmm, well let me think about that old chestnut for a brief moment.

Could it say, that perhaps we are already living on an overpopulated planet, with global resources currently stretched to breaking point? That we are destroying the environment with our grand attempts to help everyone "flourish"?

Or maybe that it's not the sole responsibility of society, to make sure every unplanned childbirth results in a "flourishing" human being. That perhaps there is some inherent personal responsibility in whether that grand project has a realistic chance of success. If not, then perhaps abortion is the logical and responsible action.

Maybe it says that some of us would like the individual to have some control over the picture they choose to paint in life. Rather than this archaic paint-by-numbers outdated world view, that individuals such as yourself like to propagate? Maybe, just maybe, it's that?

People seem very ignorant to the fact that even this current pandemic is quite likely one of the major end results of global population explosion. Disease is a natural byproduct of human overpopulation. (or any creature for that matter)

And one of the next most likely consequences is war. It is very likely we will see global wars over diminishing resources. This is pretty much inevitable according to many experts the way we are currently going as a species.

But then, all these people who you think should always be given a chance at life - regardless of the environment they are being brought into - will have a grand purpose. Just like many of our ancestors in history, we can hand them a rifle and send them off to another great important war!

Akrasia · 03-11-2021 8:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110722#Comment_118110722

You do realise that your post Is just as strong an argument against helping heroin addicts get off heroin as it is for making abortion illegal again.

Nail Rogers wouldn't have been born if his mother Wasn't heroin addict. Her life would have been different and she would not have conceived him in the first place, but even if he was born, his life would have been so different he could have ended up being an accountant or bicycle repair man...

Hotblack Desiato · 03-11-2021 11:46am

You can say the exact thing about rape.

"XYZ was conceived as a result of rape and wouldn't have been born if their mother had had an abortion." But they wouldn't have been born if not for the rape, either, so these people are really just cheerleading rapists.

None of us had a right to be conceived or to be born. All of us are only here because of the merest chance, if any of the other millions of sperm had made it instead we wouldn't be here. Oh and a huge proportion of pregnancies naturally never make it past the legal time limit for abortion here... and worldwide the vast vast majority of abortions happen during that period, too.

Then you have the hyperventilating morons going on about "murder", do we have funerals and death certs for the natural miscarriages? It's nonsense, even the 1861 legislation we had until a few years ago did not regard abortion as murder.

03-11-2021 12:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118110721#Comment_118110721

Actually I said why I couldn't be bothered.. but then, that's the norm with responses like yours, you're in such a rush to burn the heretics that you fail to consider what they've said, as opposed to what you wanted them to say.

You make it sound like marriage is some kind of prison, with women being unable to negotiate, or even leave if they want to. If a woman wants an abortion and the man doesn't, then, it's no different from a dozen other serious arguments/negotiations that a couple might have.

This isn't about telling women what to do with their bodies. This is about representation for men, because they will be required to be involved once the choice to have the child is made. In many western countries there is the legal requirement for them to be involved, financially or otherwise... and it makes sense, to me at least, that they should have other involvement considering how much a birth or abortion would affect them.

As for all your **** this and **** that... It's a pretty good reason why I left the thread on page 2, because people on abortion threads often turn into little ****, with no respect for others opinions, assuming some kind of misplaced moral superiority, and with the belief that woman's biological rights trump everyone else's. I don't think it should. A difference of opinion.. Shocking as that sounds.

And no... I'm not back posting in the thread... I did find it interesting that you decided to quote a post of mine from a thread I hadn't contributed since early September, and chose something from page 2 out of a 7 page thread. Says a lot about your reasons for posting this piece of supposed outrage.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 12:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111624#Comment_118111624

Ah it didn’t take long for someone to start screaming ‘MURDER!’

You’d call a woman who became pregnant after being raped a murderer for deciding to terminate that pregnancy.

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-11-2021 12:28pm

What's worrying for America now is that one of the states (Mississippi?) Is going to directly challenge Roe v Wade in the coming weeks.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 1:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118111986#Comment_118111986

So you highlighted what some anti-choice person would say when you claim to be pro-choice?

That’s not quite adding up, the fact you would take issue with my post instead of the post I was replying to.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 1:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112090#Comment_118112090

You said you are in favour of abortion up to 12 weeks.

That makes you pro-choice. Get off the fence.

Faugheen · 03-11-2021 1:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118112174#Comment_118112174

There is nothing wrong with either of those terms.

Anti-choice and pro-abortion are the antagonistic remarks.

Either way, your declaration of you being in favour of abortion up to a certain point makes you pro-choice, because you claim to be in favour of a woman making that choice in the first 12 weeks. There’s nothing tribalistic about that.