Why do teachers get automatic pay rises based of years of service?

hesaidshesaid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795553#Comment_117795553

Yes. It is.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795568#Comment_117795568

A link would be appreciated.

hesaidshesaid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795574#Comment_117795574

It’s under ‘Fitness to Teach’ on the Teaching Council’s website.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795578#Comment_117795578

Found it, thanks.

Dave0301

The last few posts sum up people's attitude to teachers in general.

Mistaking the TUI as the group that should fire teachers...

Not knowing about the role of the Teaching Council and then lo and behold, there actually is a whole set of formal guidance on teaching standards and what to do if you have concerns about a teacher.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795732#Comment_117795732

I will hold my hand up and admit, when reading the post I misread Union instead of the typed council, it’s not that I thought both could fire teachers. A poster had earlier quoted the site mission statement and indicated that it was the protocol, which of course it isn’t. While the Council can rule on complaints, I asked earlier if those rulings tended to be on misbehaviour or the teachers ability to teach/student performance. A glance at, but by no means exhaustive search indicates many are associated with misbehaviour/indictable offences.

My attitude, I can’t speak for others, is that no one deserves to be rewarded with a pay increase unless it is linked to performance in their job, just being in the job should not in itself entitle you to a pay rise. I wonder how many full time teachers the Dept of Education, the employer, have withheld a pay rise to, or fired for being crap at educating.

keoclassic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795794#Comment_117795794

If you think that teaching and all it encompasses can be defined by "performance bases" you are dreaming. Teaching the curriculum and content is easy, it's the dealing with relationships between staff, students, management, inspectors, parents etc that's the most difficult part. Wake up man!!! You could just as easily make a positive argument and ask why are great teachers limited to what they can earn by pays ales but you chose the negative approach!

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795879#Comment_117795879

I don’t think teaching is defined by performance, I do think remuneration should take performance into consideration though, as it does in the private sector. Teaching is not the only sector where interactions with others are an integral, and challenging part of the working day. I have no issue whatsoever with great teachers being rewarded, in fact, that is what I would like to see happen. Why should a crap teacher be rewarded the same as a great one? This is what the op is objecting to, all teachers, irrespective of their performance as educators receive a pay rise.

JimmyVik

I nevr got this in built hatred of teschers in Ireland.

Are people jealous of the holidays they get or did a teacher scold them as a child?

I would not like to be a teacher for double their pay tbh.

Also I get 30 days holidays a year in my job.

Im sure people who get 20 days would be annoyed at that, but I negotiated it when i took the job.

And people who get no holidays would be envious of those who got 20 days.

People need to get over themselves and stop moaning about the job someone else has. Instead maybe get a better job themselves if they want those perks.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117795982#Comment_117795982

You feel questioning why a certain sector receives pay rises irrespective of performance is an indication of hatred for that sector? Perhaps you apply that same standard to questioning of all sectors, it must be down to hatred only. Do criticisms of site design mean you have a hatred for site designers? I very much doubt it does.

Again I don’t speak for others, in my opinion it is a waste of money paying crap teachers the same as great ones, and the position of a teacher is too important for poorly performing educators to be left in situ just because it is difficult to remove them. If they don’t measure up to a statistical standard, they should be booted out to make way for better ones.

I have to admit though, I would like all that holiday time, I can’t think of another employee job that offers it.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796014#Comment_117796014

Yes I do feel there is far too much begrudgery in it.

Some people cant seem to get over their dislike of teachers and will moan about them at every opportunity.

The amount of people I hear at it is unreal.

Even people I know who never worked a day in their lives will get in of the teacher bashing whenever they can.

And those same people who never worked a day in their lives will be giving out about teachers holidays too.

People need to get over themselves tbh.

Give a bonus to the good teachers. Give no bonus to the crap teachers.

Eventually the crap teachers will quit. Job done.

Charles Babbage

I think the incremental approach is a reasonable way to recognise experience. However some kind of break in scale with a review, like in Institutes of Techology where you have two grades of lecturer, might make sense.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796100#Comment_117796100

Maybe they have a point, again being critical of the way any profession are paid, when it is irrespective of performance is not begrudgery, nor does it indicate a dislike for the people in that profession anymore than a criticism of website design indicates a dislike for website designers.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796145#Comment_117796145

Well there is/was effectively 2 grades of teacher no?

When the downturn came, existing teachers were facing potential cuts and used their collective might to engineer an agreement whereby most of the pain would be suffered by new entrants who would be paid less and existing ones would remain relatively unscathed.

Teachers complaining about lack of respect by non-teachers should remember that the then existing teachers didn't have a whole lot of respect for incoming teachers back in 2009 or whenever that ladder was effectively pulled up.

Those shafted new entrants only became an issue when they became a sizeable proportion due to progression of time. Up until that, zero **** were apparently given by the union or pre 2009 teachers

Ash.J.Williams

the multi nationals have pay increments too

Have I got this straight, the OP is on more money than a teacher and has less qualifications*, but is complaining about the teachers pay rate?

*Has a Diploma in old money.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796311#Comment_117796311

But if you have a degree, it is ok to complain about teachers pay rates?

Everyone deserves raises to at least keep up with inflation.

Don't really know how it could be done on performance. Maybe the best way would be to compare the results with the class's results in other subjects. Some years you just have a bad run of classes.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796472#Comment_117796472

Changes to keep up with inflation happen too - but to the salary scales directly. Point 1 on the scale is not the same as point 1 10 years ago. That is aside from increments.

There would be enough data to determine outliers. If you are a maths teacher and every year the students in your class do much worse relatively speaking compared to the students in the other maths classes in that school, and also your students consistently do worse compared to all their other subjects, even after adjustments are made for national trends and results, then you would be an outlier. So at that point it could be flagged and investigated and there would have to be some independently verified justification.

mouthful

As Billy Bragg sings ‘there is a power in a union’

loads of private sector companies also have service pay linked to your length of service. Also mainly union organised

Jeremy Sproket

The DB pension should be abolished and replaced with a DC pension. There's too much money being wasted on DB pensions.

Retired teachers' pensions increase in line with inflation AND in line with current teachers' salaries.

Retired teachers also get to vote on industrial action (what a farce!!!!).

Every teacher is lapping up €70,000 per anum after only a few years' service with no increase in responsibility.

Heraclius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117799006#Comment_117799006

Perhaps become a teacher so.

Strumms

I don’t think there is a perfect way to reward....

ive been in a job where every two years you received a pay increase based on how the company as a whole was doing....based on the finances...financial performance. Some years during early last decade our pay was frozen due to economic constraints, other years we received 3.5-5.8 % pay increases, depending.

this changed... to being based on your annual performance evaluation for each individual ... problem with this is if you are ‘in’ with the managers you’ll get looked after, if you are good at your job, performing yet had a bit of friction, vocal at team meetings .... you won’t, simply..

a guy we worked with about 7 years from retiring who was about as useful as a wheelchair with pedals, was found out to have received the second highest performance review out of the 11 people... he was a quiet guy who got on with things, never complained but if you were working on shift with him or the following shift after him it was often either your job to babysit him or clean up his mistakes...second highest increase...

performance related increases are one to abuse as performance is subjective.

Also, a teacher one year could have intellectual marvels to teach, easy, but they get a better increase but an easier ride..

a person teaching a less gifted class, not getting quite the same results but working 10% harder to get them close... doesn’t get rewarded...not really fair.

length of service isn’t perfect but it’s less imperfect and no wiggle room for abuse.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796145#Comment_117796145

That is a reasonable point.

However, please note that the progression from AL to L scale in IoT is automatic, as long as you have a Masters and have served your time on the AL scale.

In a university that I am familiar with, there is a review, you must submit a CV and be interviewed by several senior staff.

If you succeed, you progress onto the higher scale.

In the UK, there seem to be senior teacher scales, see here:

https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/advice/pay-pensions/pay-scales/england-pay-scales.html

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796472#Comment_117796472

It is helpful to distinguish between increments, and general pay increases.

The general pay increases across the public service in the near future are as follows:

2021 = +1% or 500 euro in Oct 2021

2022 = +1% or 500 euro in Oct 2022

with an extra 1% to be used as a Sectoral Bargaining Fund

Given that inflation is currently 2.2%, it looks like real public service pay is falling, and will fall.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117799006#Comment_117799006

To get to 70k takes over 25 years.

A recently qualified accountant in Dublin, aged 25/26, can start on 48k, and be on 70k by age 30 or 35.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117799006#Comment_117799006

If the PS moved from DB to DC pensions, what should the contribution rates be?

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117796220#Comment_117796220

This is the usual prejudice. Teachers faced cuts at a time when private sector employees in demand did not. It was perfectly reasonable in 2011 to put new entrants on a lower point, they did not have commitments based on a higher salary and things like rents were lower then. The only disgraceful thing was the FG government who preferred to give out tax cuts rather than move these new entrants up when things improved and costs had increased. But no doubt you approved of this.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117799866#Comment_117799866

”At a time when private sector employees in demand did not”, are you talking about the last recession? Did costs increase only for teachers?

Alex86Eire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117797868#Comment_117797868

One problem here is you are assuming none of these students are getting help outside of school. When I was in school 21/24 of us in chemistry got grinds because our teacher was very poor. We came out with great results because of the grinds.