Why do teachers get automatic pay rises based of years of service?

Reati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770677#Comment_117770677

They can't.

"the reason I'm not a teacher is because i have only a level 7 in a subject not recognised by the TUI"

Shoulder, meet chip :D

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770648#Comment_117770648

Give it a few months and everyone will forget about the clapping of nurses for Covid, it will be back to a bash the nurses pay again

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770684#Comment_117770684

Plenty of evening courses available.

In my opinion nobody should be going around complaining about what someone else does. If you want to do the job then go out, get qualified and do it. If you can't get qualified then, you can finish off the rest :-)

It's like the people who moan about TD's, then tell them they actually need zero qualifications to become a TD so why don't they go out and do it. Silence.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770658#Comment_117770658

Slightly off topic, but I have never understood intentionally mixing classes. Surely it is better to have the students banded by abilities - thus, all students in the class can move at a similar pace and learning style. Likewise, it can act as an incentive for a student/parent to improve and get "promoted" or avoid "relegation" come the next exam etc.

Sunny Disposition

Teaching is one of the hardest jobs in Ireland and conditions have declined dramatically. That's the reality Teachers are contributing to their pensions now, parent teacher meetings in the evenings for no extra pay, having to go back in late August rather than early September. I'm more than 20 years at it and the workload has gone up but the pay is very modest. There was no great urgency getting us the vaccine, despite the increased risk we were at.

If you got a Masters in something like IT or digital marketing, making no really positive difference to anything, you'd probably make more money, bizarre as it seems.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770671#Comment_117770671

You think there is a specific time of the day when an opinion should be aired? Do you wonder what motivates all posters early in the morning, or just the ones that post about this topic?

Dav010

edit function is crap.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770727#Comment_117770727

IT making no real positive difference? Do you want to have a think about what you just said?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770598#Comment_117770598

Well you can say that. But you should pro-rate the pay to actual hours worked in order to compare like with like.

As a programmer, I'd imagine that you are always learning and trying to keep up to date? Something with (many) teachers don't really have to worry about. It's not as if Shakespeare is churning out new plays or that the grammar rules of Irish are due for a backwards incompatible upgrade

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770807#Comment_117770807

It depends, on a lot of subject books are changed every few years becuase they are updated with new material etc.

Its not like it is one book, it is multiple and they need to know them back to front, the meaning behind the meaning etc. Like I remember to this day, when doing Emma one of the character kept mentioning this carriage, my teacher explained that in the time the book was written the carriage was a sign of "new money" so people would turn their nose up at it, I can't for life of me remember the carriage name but it was something most people would miss stuck in the middle of the book.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770160#Comment_117770160

Just because teachers themselves don't know how to do it, doesn't mean it could not be done.

There would be simple statistical tests to identify outliers. Once you have the data, you could set up a confidence interval of say 99% and when someone is identified as an outlier (good or bad) then the manager/principal has to otherwise justify or explain it to prevent it being acted upon.

I mean, even as students in school ourselves, we knew that there were teachers whose classes did better than the other ones. You'd know that Mrs. Murphy's class was more difficult because she made the students work but that they always did better in their exams etc.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770837#Comment_117770837

If you are working in a tech field for say 10 years at this point, there is a good chance that what you are doing now didn't exist when you finished college. It is also likely that what you will be doing in 10 years doesn't exist now. That is a whole lot different to having to use a new textbook.

And it's not only tech field. There are many jobs you where you constantly have to try to keep up to date with new rules and regulations etc.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770876#Comment_117770876

I am not disagreeing with you. Yes some jobs constantly change and if you don't change with them you become the dinosaur and lose your job. But in reality a lot in IT is based on what has passed before. So a network person 10 years ago was already doing security etc on the network, a lot of them add skills to move into the Security area because the demand/wages are in that area. It's not like you throw out everything you learned and start afresh unless you do a total change

Most teachers you will find also take on additional course to move on/more skills etc. If you are a teacher and walk out of college and never upgrade your skills you will also lose your job.

I don't see why you are so hung up on it. If you are in uni and you are going towards IT you are told that in next 10 years these are what is coming along so start now moving towards them, same with teaching you will be told XYZ is coming down the line so skill yourself up. 10 years ago if you told teachers they would spend nearly 12 months using an app and doing online classes what would the reaction be?

joebloggs32

As usual the whole focus on this discussion is teachers.

The same scaled incremental pay system is applied across the public sector.

How would one evaluate a firefighter for example on their performance.

There are some roles that can't simply be boxed off in the same way as someone such as a sales rep hitting their targets.

dxhound2005

I see on Appendix 1 that there are 25 incremental points. But teachers are stuck on the same salary for a lot of those years. And after 25 years there is no possibility of any further increase. Apart from any possible future National Pay Agreements type settlements. Which in the past have reduced salaries as well as increasing them.

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0060_2020.pdf

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770920#Comment_117770920

It hardly qualifies as "being hung up on it" now does it? I made a point to someone else. You replied to that point and I replied to you - out of courtesy as much as anything.

(Learning how to use an app would not really be considered as additional work or learning in the private sector btw.)

jester77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770659#Comment_117770659

• Management by Objectives

Hardly subjective if you have objectives!

B.A._Baracus

Careful op, you've now entered the begrudging zone :p

You should not care what teachers are on - you already said you are earning more so what does it matter?

Always gonna be some jobs that the pay is great or a handy number etc. Either get those jobs or your own good pay and handy number. What ever that may be. Moaning about someone else earning too much is begrudgery.

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770706#Comment_117770706

Some schools do it. Its called streaming.

Streaming is controversial in that you are labelling kids as they enter a school.

It tends to work out well for the top performers as they get hot housed. However the weaker students can become almost ghettoised for want of a better word.

Using mixed ability classes can help have a positive impact on some of the weaker students. Putting students working together in group activities can allow the weaker students to learn from their peers.

It can also help from a social aspect as students get to know each other who otherwise may not. Remember, schools are not just about getting high grades.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770958#Comment_117770958

It is hardly just learning an app, it is education 30+ students in most cases over an app instead of face - face.

I am not a teacher, I can see both sides. Same as a few years ago I seen a thread attacking nurses and pay. At that time I pointed out would people be complaining if they are in hospital sick, in the last 18 months have we heard anything about nurse pay except to give them a pay rise?

Different jobs have different requirements, put a IT person into a room full of 30 kids and see how they get on, I am sure they wuill be running back to their computer ASAP. Not sure why people have to say well A you do this so that makes it better than B. If you think job B is better then go do it. I had a mate in IT who had enough and now teachs IT.

Flinty997

...

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770964#Comment_117770964

I wouldn't be a teacher. I think its a tough job.

That was only one of the suggestion. I'd lay strong odd that the objectives wouldn't be measurable and not over the entire sector. They'd be individual objectives so zero consistency.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117771010#Comment_117771010

actually, I should have clarified, I was thinking of streaming in senior cycle. So, in my school, the junior years were all mixed, but for 5th/6th, the core subjects (Maths/English/Irish) were streamed (based on JC results, Transition year results, and then the Xmas/Summer 5th year results) with the classes being streamed 3 times (start of 1st year, after xmas and again at the start of 6th year) incentivising students to improve. As for non-core subjects, there was some element of "natural streaming" with the stronger kids typically choosing applied maths, physics, chem etc. I think it worked well as it did prevent the ghettoising of students etc and everyone did mix very well (between junior years and non-core subjects in senior years). But it also enabled teachers (and students) to move at a different pace when it came to the LC for the core subjects. And rather than ghettoising those in the lower graded classes, it helped act as a wake-up call for those students/parents who assumed they could coast their way to a high grade (such as me 😉).

Jeremy Sproket

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770671#Comment_117770671

What relevance has the time of day got to do with it? I was on break .. I work shift... I await your reply.

It's gas how some people come into a thread and resort to whataboutery and attack the OP for reasons well outside the scope of the OP instead of discussing the substance of the discussion.

Pat yourself of the back.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770923#Comment_117770923

I suspect the performance of fire fighters is assessed on an ongoing basis, or at least I’d like to think a poorly performing one would not be kept on.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117771012#Comment_117771012

I've seen this argument that "if you think X is such a good job/lifestyle then go and do it" as if it proves something. However it does not as it is not logically sound.

For example, if you get a baby sitter on a Friday night and head out and return after 3 hours, only to be met with an outstretched hand demanding 200 quid - you don't lose any ability or right to remark on that just because you haven't immediately resigned your own job to go babysitting instead.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117771340#Comment_117771340

Your example doesn't make sense, surely you would agree the rate up front?

I guess you are trying to say if you are well paid then you can't change jobs? If you are unhappy in a job and feel you would be happier in another job then is money really everything? just change. You only have one life.

I think that is the point you are making but maybe I am wrong

dxhound2005

There are about 7 times as many workers in the private sector compared to the public sector. Some wages are lower some higher. At the very top no public service worker could get anything close to the vast sums that are available in the private sector.

34 staff working for banks operating in Ireland earned over €1m each in 2019, according to new data published by the European Banking Authority (EBA).

This represents an increase of seven on the previous year.

The highest earner was a manager at an unnamed institution who received €16.2m in payments, made up of over €9m in fixed pay and more than €7.2m in variable remuneration, although €6.4m of that was deferred.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117771414#Comment_117771414

Surely you understand those 34 are outliers and that their high rate of remuneration is performance based? What the op is posted about is all teachers getting increases irrespective of performance.

jester77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117771051#Comment_117771051

Consistency... that is the problem. Why should it be consistent, why should salaries be consistent? No 2 teachers are the same, no 2 classes are the same and no 2 students are the same. Of course they should have different objectives, any director or manager will not give different people the same objectives, no logic to that. Each person should be given individual objectives based on their environment, and that is one of the criteria used to evaluate their performance.