Why do teachers get automatic pay rises based of years of service?

Jeremy Sproket

In private industry, you have to EARN your pay rise. My company only increases salaries based on the previous year's inflation, any other increments in addition to that has to be earned. Before anyone asks the usual deflective question and resorts to whataboutery, the reason I'm not a teacher is because i have only a level 7 in a subject not recognised by the TUI and I earn more than what a teacher would earn anyway for the number of years I've been working ... but you better believe I earned that salary.

They are overpaid compared to what they would get without a union holding their employer and children's education to ransom. Private sectors will pay what they can to stop a competitor poaching staff. How many teachers have you heard of leaving for the private sector?

Why should teachers' salaries increase year on year simply for hanging around? The max pay scale is €70,000 !!!! For no increase in responsibilities.

When they retire, they will get half this (€70,000 plus a lump sum of 1.5 so €105,000).

Private annuities are paid at roughly 3.5% of the pot with a lump sum of 20% tax free. For a private sector worker to get the same pension benefits as teachers you'd need well over €1million in your pension fund and even that isn't guaranteed. Private funds can be ravaged by inflation, the market or raided by the government teachers is safe as houses.

Teachers pensions in retirement increase yearly with inflation and in line with teachers' pay rises.

3DataModem

There's no scope for performance related pay or bonuses, so teachers have to get increases based on something.

Tenure is a reasonable choice, IMO.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

What's your beef here, the increments or the top rate of pay?

The idea of an incremental pay rise (or my understanding of it) is that the person in the job is gaining experience and improving on an ongoing basis for a predetermined amount of time (usually between 10 and 15 years), this is the same for Healthcare workers, Gardai etc.

Comparing the Education sector with private industry is apples and oranges, as remuneration for an 'industry' like Education that doesn't generate profit is never going to be attractive enough to attract the talent we want in our teaching ranks.

That's my take on it anyway. Not a teacher by the way.

jester77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770012#Comment_117770012

I have no issues with the system as it is, but there is scope. The director of the school should know how his/her teachers are performing. It should be their job to assess and distribute performance based increases and bonuses. It's no different to the role of a manager in a private company. It's not exactly fair that a top performing teacher should get the same salary as a poor performing teacher.

Happyhouse22

As a teacher, I’m definitely looking firward to see where this goes 😆

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770045#Comment_117770045

How do you measure performance.

You might be in a school in a disadvantaged area, or an area of privilege. You might have a lot of special needs kids. You might have kids who won't be sitting exams etc..

spurious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770045#Comment_117770045

Here we are with this again.

Which would you pay more, a teacher who gets a class full of high achieving students, none with any learning disabilities and they all get As and Bs in JC HL English, or a teacher who gets a class with 50% non-readers (or children with no English) and at Junior Cert they all pass JC OL English?

Should the teachers have a face off in the ring to decide who gets which class?

Should you put whatever you decide are 'high performing' teachers in with weaker children or high achievers?

oisinog

As someone who tried to home school 3 children during lockdowns, teachers are not paid enough.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770160#Comment_117770160

An equally relevant question, why should an inadequate teacher be entitled to a pay rise based only on years of service?

Dave0301

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770180#Comment_117770180

What are you basing their inadequacy on?

Treppen

... I'm just waiting for the ..and what about the baaaad teachers..." strawman.

Buddy if you wanna be a teacher the door is open and the class are waiting.

jester77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770153#Comment_117770153

Lots of ways:

• Self appraisals
• Peer/Student/Parent Feedback
• Management by Objectives
• Reviews
• etc.

Not everything is about exams, it's time Ireland moved on from that.

Jeremy Sproket

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770232#Comment_117770232

How is that strawman?

A pupil performs badly. Teachers: Don't blame us, blame yourself for being lazy and unmotivated.

A pupil does well. The same teachers: Aren't we wonderful, look at the fruits of our teaching abilities.

Jeremy Sproket

To show you how one sided and close minded and hostile to other viewpoints teachers are .... try posting this in the teachers forum ... down like a lead balloon.

Before anyone resorts to correcting my spelling or grammar btw as a piss poor attempt of deflection, English isn't my first language (I grew up in Sweden).

screamer

Perhaps tenure related increments are ok, just the percentage given is not.

there are great teachers who really motivate and inspire their pupils and treat them well. There are also the lazy, unable and disinterested types that only chose teaching for the large pay and long holidays. you’ll always have the stars and underachievers in every group, just that in private companies, underachievers usually aren’t rewarded.

AMTE_21

I'm not a teacher but I think the theory is - there is a rate for the job, i.e., the top of the scale and you gain experience and prove yourself as the years go on and you reach the top of the scale you are “experienced” and so on the full rate for the job. The scale would be increased through pay rises for cost of living increases. I’m not sure about teachers, but in the private sector, if you’re not performing they can withhold increments.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770232#Comment_117770232

It’s hardly a straw man to ask why employees in a sector are entitled of increased remuneration irrespective of performance.

There are lots of jobs we all would not like to do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770198#Comment_117770198

Exactly.

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204596/why-do-teachers-get-automatic-pay-rises-based-of-years-of-service

The TUI have nothing to do with wether you can teach or not. Its a union that represents members.

The Teaching Council of Ireland set up by the education act sets the minimum standards required for entry to the profession. It has a broad range of representation including industry and education.

On your point about measuring performance, one year I took two classes in the same subject to junior cert level. Both clases were mixed ability meaning that in theorey the overall results should be similar.

However one class had 18 out of 24 score A or B at higher level, while the other had 8.

Now both classes had the same person delivering the same course using the same methods, but had substantially different outcomes. If my pay was to be judged on performance which one should be used? If I only had one of those classes I would either have been a top performer or a slouch.

Any other metric that you suggest could be used would be wide open to abuse and favouritism. It would destroy teaching. The profession is already in a crisis of recruitment. Maths, sciences, languages in far too short supply. The problem is particularly acute in the greater Dublin area due to the cost of living.

If you think the cost of education is expensive for a country, try imagining the cost of not properly funding the education system.

Ray Palmer

I have to laugh at the privileged position the OP is in and doesn't even know. Very few private companies increase salary they way they are experiencing it. Pay rises for many people don't happen once a year and is dependent on the company's success and nothing to do with the effort and knowledge of the employee. Worked for a company that was always struggling when the economy was booming and when the company was doing well they would point to the industry not doing well as a way not to pay raises.

Teachers have group negotiations due to there not being a fair metric and work up to the top salary. Lots of private companies used to do this. Back in th day as jobs were for life the expectation was the person would get married and have more responsibilities so would pay more the longer you stayed. They also didn't want their experienced staff being poached so it was another reason to pay more.

The entire civil service has the same set-up as teachers with salary increases so not sure why teachers are being singled out

Mrs OBumble

Now both classes had the same person delivering the same course using the same methods, but had substantially different outcomes.

Your job is to use methods that work for your students. If you used the same methods for both classes, then you did it wrong.

Dave0301

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770565#Comment_117770565

Or maybe not every pupil is meant to get an A or B? They were mixed ability groups, that does not mean the ability of the groups was distributed evenly.

Well to be honest they deserve it.

Its not an easy job and most people will be up around 70K after twenty seven years of service in their chose profession.

If teaching is so easy go back and retrain.

Im only 30 and working in programming and get 55K a year, so 70K is not that far out of the question.

I'll be on 70K before I'm 35.

Would I be able for teaching, not a hope in hell. I say I'd go home crying everyday lol.

dotsman

OP, while I share your sentiments and that it does seem crazy that pay increases are based on length of service rather than performance resulting in a poor teacher with 20 years service being paid substantially more than a good teacher with 5 year's service, the answer is pretty simple - what's the alternative?

I have had this debate many times with friends and family who are teachers.

At the foundation of all this is that a teacher can't quit and go to the private sector - there is only one employer and that is the state (unlike an accountant who could work in the civil service but easily leave to join the private sector). Likewise, if a teacher is "let go", they have nowhere else to go. Therefore, job-for-life is seen as essential for people in that career. The result of that is that you end up with the good and the bad mixed in together. When it comes to performance, while it is obvious in some cases as to who is a good teacher or a bad teacher (but could be subjective in others), it is very hard to put that in an empirical formula. There's been plenty of posts above regarding measuring based on exam results, so what else do you use? Ratings from students/parents? That just results in a popularity contest with the strict (but good) teacher performing badly and the easy-going (but poor) teacher getting massive pay rises. Likewise, how do you ensure consistency both within schools and across schools?

Ultimately, it's the only way it can be done until someone thinks of a better (and practical) alternative.

On the flip side, I do wish teachers would accept that the above also causes them critical challenges. When operating in a heavily unionised environment, and with the benefit of guaranteed pay rises, job security and excellent pension, they can only move at the pace of the slowest in the herd. That is why I get frustrated when the unions (especially ASTI) start rattling their cages. I have no problem with the idea of good/great teachers getting paid substantially more. But as long as they are all in the same boat together with the mediocre/poor/terrible teachers, then they are going to have a hard time convincing anyone that they (collectively) "deserve" more.

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770565#Comment_117770565

Trust me, i tweaked my methods where/when possible.

The point i was making on how you will always get different outcomes was obviously lost on you.

Green Peter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204596/why-do-teachers-get-automatic-pay-rises-based-of-years-of-service

Your private industry fell through the floor through the last 18 months with Covid and the public sector keep things going. Give up on the public sector bashing. I've worked in the private sector , semi state and public and can tell you there are wasters surviving in all sectors and top class people in each sector as well and they deserved a decent renumeration method.

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770577#Comment_117770577

Thats exactly the point.

The school tries its best to evenly distribute the students using standardised testing upon entry. Despite this the classes had quite different dynamics.

How could someone really judge which class I did a better job with?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770290#Comment_117770290

That's mostly subjective. How is that better?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770648#Comment_117770648

Again, an equally valid viewpoint would be that private sector taxes pay for the public service, so please, lighten up on the “we kept things going”, lots of private employees worked throughout the pandemic.

Reati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204596/why-do-teachers-get-automatic-pay-rises-based-of-years-of-service

Imagine at 7.44 in the morning, your top worry is how teachers pay increases are handled. So much, you feel the need to write several paragraphs on the subject....

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204596/why-do-teachers-get-automatic-pay-rises-based-of-years-of-service

Just become a teacher and then you will be able to benefit from it.

Reati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770677#Comment_117770677

They can't.

"the reason I'm not a teacher is because i have only a level 7 in a subject not recognised by the TUI"

Shoulder, meet chip :D

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770648#Comment_117770648

Give it a few months and everyone will forget about the clapping of nurses for Covid, it will be back to a bash the nurses pay again

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770684#Comment_117770684

Plenty of evening courses available.

In my opinion nobody should be going around complaining about what someone else does. If you want to do the job then go out, get qualified and do it. If you can't get qualified then, you can finish off the rest :-)

It's like the people who moan about TD's, then tell them they actually need zero qualifications to become a TD so why don't they go out and do it. Silence.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770658#Comment_117770658

Slightly off topic, but I have never understood intentionally mixing classes. Surely it is better to have the students banded by abilities - thus, all students in the class can move at a similar pace and learning style. Likewise, it can act as an incentive for a student/parent to improve and get "promoted" or avoid "relegation" come the next exam etc.

Sunny Disposition

Teaching is one of the hardest jobs in Ireland and conditions have declined dramatically. That's the reality Teachers are contributing to their pensions now, parent teacher meetings in the evenings for no extra pay, having to go back in late August rather than early September. I'm more than 20 years at it and the workload has gone up but the pay is very modest. There was no great urgency getting us the vaccine, despite the increased risk we were at.

If you got a Masters in something like IT or digital marketing, making no really positive difference to anything, you'd probably make more money, bizarre as it seems.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770671#Comment_117770671

You think there is a specific time of the day when an opinion should be aired? Do you wonder what motivates all posters early in the morning, or just the ones that post about this topic?

edit function is crap.

dotsman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770727#Comment_117770727

IT making no real positive difference? Do you want to have a think about what you just said?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770598#Comment_117770598

Well you can say that. But you should pro-rate the pay to actual hours worked in order to compare like with like.

As a programmer, I'd imagine that you are always learning and trying to keep up to date? Something with (many) teachers don't really have to worry about. It's not as if Shakespeare is churning out new plays or that the grammar rules of Irish are due for a backwards incompatible upgrade

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770807#Comment_117770807

It depends, on a lot of subject books are changed every few years becuase they are updated with new material etc.

Its not like it is one book, it is multiple and they need to know them back to front, the meaning behind the meaning etc. Like I remember to this day, when doing Emma one of the character kept mentioning this carriage, my teacher explained that in the time the book was written the carriage was a sign of "new money" so people would turn their nose up at it, I can't for life of me remember the carriage name but it was something most people would miss stuck in the middle of the book.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770160#Comment_117770160

Just because teachers themselves don't know how to do it, doesn't mean it could not be done.

There would be simple statistical tests to identify outliers. Once you have the data, you could set up a confidence interval of say 99% and when someone is identified as an outlier (good or bad) then the manager/principal has to otherwise justify or explain it to prevent it being acted upon.

I mean, even as students in school ourselves, we knew that there were teachers whose classes did better than the other ones. You'd know that Mrs. Murphy's class was more difficult because she made the students work but that they always did better in their exams etc.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770837#Comment_117770837

If you are working in a tech field for say 10 years at this point, there is a good chance that what you are doing now didn't exist when you finished college. It is also likely that what you will be doing in 10 years doesn't exist now. That is a whole lot different to having to use a new textbook.

And it's not only tech field. There are many jobs you where you constantly have to try to keep up to date with new rules and regulations etc.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770876#Comment_117770876

I am not disagreeing with you. Yes some jobs constantly change and if you don't change with them you become the dinosaur and lose your job. But in reality a lot in IT is based on what has passed before. So a network person 10 years ago was already doing security etc on the network, a lot of them add skills to move into the Security area because the demand/wages are in that area. It's not like you throw out everything you learned and start afresh unless you do a total change

Most teachers you will find also take on additional course to move on/more skills etc. If you are a teacher and walk out of college and never upgrade your skills you will also lose your job.

I don't see why you are so hung up on it. If you are in uni and you are going towards IT you are told that in next 10 years these are what is coming along so start now moving towards them, same with teaching you will be told XYZ is coming down the line so skill yourself up. 10 years ago if you told teachers they would spend nearly 12 months using an app and doing online classes what would the reaction be?

joebloggs32

As usual the whole focus on this discussion is teachers.

The same scaled incremental pay system is applied across the public sector.

How would one evaluate a firefighter for example on their performance.

There are some roles that can't simply be boxed off in the same way as someone such as a sales rep hitting their targets.

dxhound2005

I see on Appendix 1 that there are 25 incremental points. But teachers are stuck on the same salary for a lot of those years. And after 25 years there is no possibility of any further increase. Apart from any possible future National Pay Agreements type settlements. Which in the past have reduced salaries as well as increasing them.

https://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0060_2020.pdf

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770920#Comment_117770920

It hardly qualifies as "being hung up on it" now does it? I made a point to someone else. You replied to that point and I replied to you - out of courtesy as much as anything.

(Learning how to use an app would not really be considered as additional work or learning in the private sector btw.)

jester77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770659#Comment_117770659

• Management by Objectives

Hardly subjective if you have objectives!

B.A._Baracus

Careful op, you've now entered the begrudging zone :p

You should not care what teachers are on - you already said you are earning more so what does it matter?

Always gonna be some jobs that the pay is great or a handy number etc. Either get those jobs or your own good pay and handy number. What ever that may be. Moaning about someone else earning too much is begrudgery.

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770706#Comment_117770706

Some schools do it. Its called streaming.

Streaming is controversial in that you are labelling kids as they enter a school.

It tends to work out well for the top performers as they get hot housed. However the weaker students can become almost ghettoised for want of a better word.

Using mixed ability classes can help have a positive impact on some of the weaker students. Putting students working together in group activities can allow the weaker students to learn from their peers.

It can also help from a social aspect as students get to know each other who otherwise may not. Remember, schools are not just about getting high grades.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770958#Comment_117770958

It is hardly just learning an app, it is education 30+ students in most cases over an app instead of face - face.

I am not a teacher, I can see both sides. Same as a few years ago I seen a thread attacking nurses and pay. At that time I pointed out would people be complaining if they are in hospital sick, in the last 18 months have we heard anything about nurse pay except to give them a pay rise?

Different jobs have different requirements, put a IT person into a room full of 30 kids and see how they get on, I am sure they wuill be running back to their computer ASAP. Not sure why people have to say well A you do this so that makes it better than B. If you think job B is better then go do it. I had a mate in IT who had enough and now teachs IT.