Why do teachers get automatic pay rises based of years of service?

Jeremy Sproket

In private industry, you have to EARN your pay rise. My company only increases salaries based on the previous year's inflation, any other increments in addition to that has to be earned. Before anyone asks the usual deflective question and resorts to whataboutery, the reason I'm not a teacher is because i have only a level 7 in a subject not recognised by the TUI and I earn more than what a teacher would earn anyway for the number of years I've been working ... but you better believe I earned that salary.

They are overpaid compared to what they would get without a union holding their employer and children's education to ransom. Private sectors will pay what they can to stop a competitor poaching staff. How many teachers have you heard of leaving for the private sector?

Why should teachers' salaries increase year on year simply for hanging around? The max pay scale is €70,000 !!!! For no increase in responsibilities.

When they retire, they will get half this (€70,000 plus a lump sum of 1.5 so €105,000).

Private annuities are paid at roughly 3.5% of the pot with a lump sum of 20% tax free. For a private sector worker to get the same pension benefits as teachers you'd need well over €1million in your pension fund and even that isn't guaranteed. Private funds can be ravaged by inflation, the market or raided by the government teachers is safe as houses.

Teachers pensions in retirement increase yearly with inflation and in line with teachers' pay rises.

3DataModem

There's no scope for performance related pay or bonuses, so teachers have to get increases based on something.

Tenure is a reasonable choice, IMO.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

What's your beef here, the increments or the top rate of pay?

The idea of an incremental pay rise (or my understanding of it) is that the person in the job is gaining experience and improving on an ongoing basis for a predetermined amount of time (usually between 10 and 15 years), this is the same for Healthcare workers, Gardai etc.

Comparing the Education sector with private industry is apples and oranges, as remuneration for an 'industry' like Education that doesn't generate profit is never going to be attractive enough to attract the talent we want in our teaching ranks.

That's my take on it anyway. Not a teacher by the way.

jester77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770012#Comment_117770012

I have no issues with the system as it is, but there is scope. The director of the school should know how his/her teachers are performing. It should be their job to assess and distribute performance based increases and bonuses. It's no different to the role of a manager in a private company. It's not exactly fair that a top performing teacher should get the same salary as a poor performing teacher.

Happyhouse22

As a teacher, I’m definitely looking firward to see where this goes 😆

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770045#Comment_117770045

How do you measure performance.

You might be in a school in a disadvantaged area, or an area of privilege. You might have a lot of special needs kids. You might have kids who won't be sitting exams etc..

spurious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770045#Comment_117770045

Here we are with this again.

Which would you pay more, a teacher who gets a class full of high achieving students, none with any learning disabilities and they all get As and Bs in JC HL English, or a teacher who gets a class with 50% non-readers (or children with no English) and at Junior Cert they all pass JC OL English?

Should the teachers have a face off in the ring to decide who gets which class?

Should you put whatever you decide are 'high performing' teachers in with weaker children or high achievers?

oisinog

As someone who tried to home school 3 children during lockdowns, teachers are not paid enough.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770160#Comment_117770160

An equally relevant question, why should an inadequate teacher be entitled to a pay rise based only on years of service?

Dave0301

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770180#Comment_117770180

What are you basing their inadequacy on?

Treppen

... I'm just waiting for the ..and what about the baaaad teachers..." strawman.

Buddy if you wanna be a teacher the door is open and the class are waiting.

jester77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770153#Comment_117770153

Lots of ways:

• Self appraisals
• Peer/Student/Parent Feedback
• Management by Objectives
• Reviews
• etc.

Not everything is about exams, it's time Ireland moved on from that.

Jeremy Sproket

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770232#Comment_117770232

How is that strawman?

A pupil performs badly. Teachers: Don't blame us, blame yourself for being lazy and unmotivated.

A pupil does well. The same teachers: Aren't we wonderful, look at the fruits of our teaching abilities.

Jeremy Sproket

To show you how one sided and close minded and hostile to other viewpoints teachers are .... try posting this in the teachers forum ... down like a lead balloon.

Before anyone resorts to correcting my spelling or grammar btw as a piss poor attempt of deflection, English isn't my first language (I grew up in Sweden).

screamer

Perhaps tenure related increments are ok, just the percentage given is not.

there are great teachers who really motivate and inspire their pupils and treat them well. There are also the lazy, unable and disinterested types that only chose teaching for the large pay and long holidays. you’ll always have the stars and underachievers in every group, just that in private companies, underachievers usually aren’t rewarded.

AMTE_21

I'm not a teacher but I think the theory is - there is a rate for the job, i.e., the top of the scale and you gain experience and prove yourself as the years go on and you reach the top of the scale you are “experienced” and so on the full rate for the job. The scale would be increased through pay rises for cost of living increases. I’m not sure about teachers, but in the private sector, if you’re not performing they can withhold increments.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770232#Comment_117770232

It’s hardly a straw man to ask why employees in a sector are entitled of increased remuneration irrespective of performance.

There are lots of jobs we all would not like to do.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770198#Comment_117770198

Exactly.

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204596/why-do-teachers-get-automatic-pay-rises-based-of-years-of-service

The TUI have nothing to do with wether you can teach or not. Its a union that represents members.

The Teaching Council of Ireland set up by the education act sets the minimum standards required for entry to the profession. It has a broad range of representation including industry and education.

On your point about measuring performance, one year I took two classes in the same subject to junior cert level. Both clases were mixed ability meaning that in theorey the overall results should be similar.

However one class had 18 out of 24 score A or B at higher level, while the other had 8.

Now both classes had the same person delivering the same course using the same methods, but had substantially different outcomes. If my pay was to be judged on performance which one should be used? If I only had one of those classes I would either have been a top performer or a slouch.

Any other metric that you suggest could be used would be wide open to abuse and favouritism. It would destroy teaching. The profession is already in a crisis of recruitment. Maths, sciences, languages in far too short supply. The problem is particularly acute in the greater Dublin area due to the cost of living.

If you think the cost of education is expensive for a country, try imagining the cost of not properly funding the education system.

Ray Palmer

I have to laugh at the privileged position the OP is in and doesn't even know. Very few private companies increase salary they way they are experiencing it. Pay rises for many people don't happen once a year and is dependent on the company's success and nothing to do with the effort and knowledge of the employee. Worked for a company that was always struggling when the economy was booming and when the company was doing well they would point to the industry not doing well as a way not to pay raises.

Teachers have group negotiations due to there not being a fair metric and work up to the top salary. Lots of private companies used to do this. Back in th day as jobs were for life the expectation was the person would get married and have more responsibilities so would pay more the longer you stayed. They also didn't want their experienced staff being poached so it was another reason to pay more.

The entire civil service has the same set-up as teachers with salary increases so not sure why teachers are being singled out

Mrs OBumble

Now both classes had the same person delivering the same course using the same methods, but had substantially different outcomes.

Your job is to use methods that work for your students. If you used the same methods for both classes, then you did it wrong.

Dave0301

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770565#Comment_117770565

Or maybe not every pupil is meant to get an A or B? They were mixed ability groups, that does not mean the ability of the groups was distributed evenly.

Well to be honest they deserve it.

Its not an easy job and most people will be up around 70K after twenty seven years of service in their chose profession.

If teaching is so easy go back and retrain.

Im only 30 and working in programming and get 55K a year, so 70K is not that far out of the question.

I'll be on 70K before I'm 35.

Would I be able for teaching, not a hope in hell. I say I'd go home crying everyday lol.

dotsman

OP, while I share your sentiments and that it does seem crazy that pay increases are based on length of service rather than performance resulting in a poor teacher with 20 years service being paid substantially more than a good teacher with 5 year's service, the answer is pretty simple - what's the alternative?

I have had this debate many times with friends and family who are teachers.

At the foundation of all this is that a teacher can't quit and go to the private sector - there is only one employer and that is the state (unlike an accountant who could work in the civil service but easily leave to join the private sector). Likewise, if a teacher is "let go", they have nowhere else to go. Therefore, job-for-life is seen as essential for people in that career. The result of that is that you end up with the good and the bad mixed in together. When it comes to performance, while it is obvious in some cases as to who is a good teacher or a bad teacher (but could be subjective in others), it is very hard to put that in an empirical formula. There's been plenty of posts above regarding measuring based on exam results, so what else do you use? Ratings from students/parents? That just results in a popularity contest with the strict (but good) teacher performing badly and the easy-going (but poor) teacher getting massive pay rises. Likewise, how do you ensure consistency both within schools and across schools?

Ultimately, it's the only way it can be done until someone thinks of a better (and practical) alternative.

On the flip side, I do wish teachers would accept that the above also causes them critical challenges. When operating in a heavily unionised environment, and with the benefit of guaranteed pay rises, job security and excellent pension, they can only move at the pace of the slowest in the herd. That is why I get frustrated when the unions (especially ASTI) start rattling their cages. I have no problem with the idea of good/great teachers getting paid substantially more. But as long as they are all in the same boat together with the mediocre/poor/terrible teachers, then they are going to have a hard time convincing anyone that they (collectively) "deserve" more.

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770565#Comment_117770565

Trust me, i tweaked my methods where/when possible.

The point i was making on how you will always get different outcomes was obviously lost on you.

Green Peter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204596/why-do-teachers-get-automatic-pay-rises-based-of-years-of-service

Your private industry fell through the floor through the last 18 months with Covid and the public sector keep things going. Give up on the public sector bashing. I've worked in the private sector , semi state and public and can tell you there are wasters surviving in all sectors and top class people in each sector as well and they deserved a decent renumeration method.

joebloggs32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770577#Comment_117770577

Thats exactly the point.

The school tries its best to evenly distribute the students using standardised testing upon entry. Despite this the classes had quite different dynamics.

How could someone really judge which class I did a better job with?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770290#Comment_117770290

That's mostly subjective. How is that better?

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770648#Comment_117770648

Again, an equally valid viewpoint would be that private sector taxes pay for the public service, so please, lighten up on the “we kept things going”, lots of private employees worked throughout the pandemic.

Reati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204596/why-do-teachers-get-automatic-pay-rises-based-of-years-of-service

Imagine at 7.44 in the morning, your top worry is how teachers pay increases are handled. So much, you feel the need to write several paragraphs on the subject....

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058204596/why-do-teachers-get-automatic-pay-rises-based-of-years-of-service

Just become a teacher and then you will be able to benefit from it.