Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071043#Comment_118071043

Denmark declared it endemic.

Sweden never had lockdowns.

We've had regular flu seasons/years with higher excess mortality in the early 2000s

Don't remember any lockdowns for those.

The risk to a 20 year old is still less than that of a 70 year old vaccinated person. So if its not about risk to the individual and its about spread of the virus why were we allowed to all sit indoors during the summer of 2020 while unvaccinated?

If you say its about the delta spead which vaccines only marginally reduce for a 3 month period then do you agree we should put expiration dates on covid certs for everyone after 3-5 months?

Do you agree that you should require a booster after 6 months or have your pass invalidated as they have done for those with natural immunity (which is looking to be fair more robust than the vaccines level of immunity)

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070834#Comment_118070834

You’re twisting it again comparing 2020 to 2021. A usual tactic by anti vaxxers . Your posts don’t change the current situation and the facts. Vaccination works.

Also it’s not just 20 year olds that like to go out and enjoy themselves. There’s lots of middle age people who go out who are exposed to the virus. Furthermore more younger people are ending up in ICU. Because of our **** health system we need to spare as many icu beds as we can. Vaccination does a good job at that.

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071047#Comment_118071047

But it's not a choice. If it's a choice should bars and restaurants be allowed to make their own choice to serve vaccinated or unvaccinated people?

Do you think it should be left to the individual establishment who they want to serve?

If not then it isn't a choice is it. Since I know many places that given the choice would tell you the pass means nothing to them.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069459#Comment_118069459

No .

Not happening here now and won't be happening any time soon hopefully. The numbers are going up but there will be surge capacity of about another 80 beds and private hospitals will be deployed to take on more elective surgeries and treatment , as I am sure your brother will tell you .

It is going to affect general hospital services though , no doubt now about that .

If anything some poor , elderly person who has been in ICU for weeks and not improving would be moved somewhere to a HDU bed to give space for both young people, vaccinated , or not , obese or in good nick , alcoholic, drug user , smoker , transplant or cancer patient , whatever , makes no difference .

This sort of triage where some are not given treatment based onthere " survivability " is on the battlefield or at major disasters like explosions , but not generally in hospitals , unless completely overcome, and hasn't happened here yet , and hopefully won't .

I know we have heard the horror stories about Italy and India , but these countries were affected pre vaccination.

No doctor would leave a young person untreated , vaccinated or not . Nor would judgements be made about fitness and obesity or any other condition . That's just mad stuff and rhetoric being used by those who are anti government to try to drum up fear about healthcare and the remaining restrictions .

You get all sorts of people in ICU in Ireland , with every type of condition imaginable. If decisions and judgements were being made like that we would have loads of beds in the morning because very few people would be in hospital !

On the subject of whether the sick, vaccinated person would survive over the unvaccinated patient in ICU , the normal survival rates for the different age groups apply , but the odds are in favour of the vaccinated , unless very old and frail by about, 17 to 1 here ,according to Dr.Colm Henry last week

Of course this is dependent on age, underlying conditions and how severe Covid infection in the first instant .

CDC finds odds for unvaccinated 29 times more likely to be hospitalised, 11 times more unlikely to survive ...https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely.

We tend to do better than those odds here because we have more people generally with vaccine protection , and our ICU survival rate is one of the best in the OECD , pre Covid .

Obviously the higher the pressure on ICU beds ,having redeploy surge capacity and reduced numbers of qualified staff to deal with excessive numbers ,may have a downward pressure on those good results , I don't know , but so far our system has held up well.

But staff are very , very tired now and many people will leave , but after this is resolved somehow , as most people ,want to see it through .

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070879#Comment_118070879

The passes don’t bother me or do i give a feck around their controversy. I’m getting on with my life, couldn’t be better. You’re just going to have to “ suck it up” or sit outside in the cold and rain drinking. Your choice.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070132#Comment_118070132

Whether unforseen or not there are very few choices you will make in life that will not have consequences. Choosing who you have for Christmas dinner being likely one. But if someone makes the choice not to recieve a vaccation based on their beliefs on body integrity then I cannot see where that is any different to someone deciding who they will invite based on the same.

Personally being fully vaccinated and at my age and general health condition it would not bother me who is invited, but I don`t see based on the same belief how one can be defended and the other castigated.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071093#Comment_118071093

Your choice is not to have the advantages as someone who makes to have those advantages. That’s life. And life is Fcucking brilliant.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071085#Comment_118071085

You're still making false equivalences. The restrictions are about reducing the opportunity for the virus to spread to keep cases manageable, they're not perfect, but Ireland has done really well internationally in that regard, we're not Sweden or Denmark, but we're not the UK either. If someone is restricted because they won't take a vaccine during a pandemic and the unvaccinated are clogging up hospitals and ICU then that is on the unvaccinated themselves with no one else to blame as you seem to be trying to do.

If you want to talk about the effectiveness of vaccines, there is the vaccine thread where your questions have been answered to death and backed up with evidence and studies (there's a good bit of misinformation in your post, but this is not the thread to be discussing it on, I would note that you now seem to be going on wild tangents rather than dealing with the topic at hand which is relaxing of restrictions, which is mostly happening for the vaccinated).

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071112#Comment_118071112

Invite who you like but given the vaccines are working and 90% have them it seems crazy that we are suddenly treating the unvaccinated like they are some how a huge risk for Xmas Dinner while the previous year we all had Xmas Dinner while unvaccinated.

If you can't see how that's weird...

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071109#Comment_118071109

False. There are large heated outdoor areas of pubs with roofs. Many people have abandoned the indoor sections which were full in 2019. No one is cold or wet. No one is sitting in the rain or suffering, vaccinated and unvaccinated sit together and drink.

There's nothing to "suck up", it just bothers me that scapegoating and a campaign of legal discrimination are embraced as good things by some when they are obviously incredibly dodgy.

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071125#Comment_118071125

Fine. Let's get back to the restrictions.

Given Sweden and Denmark lower vaccination rates why can they allow everyone back into society but we can't?

growleaves

@Goldengirl 'No doctor would leave a young person untreated , vaccinated or not . Nor would judgements be made about fitness and obesity or any other condition . That's just mad stuff and rhetoric being used by those who are anti government to try to drum up fear about healthcare and the remaining restrictions .'

If you read the thread it is a parcel of pro-vax posters who keep saying (falsely) that medical treatment could or should be denied to people based on something they did or didn't do.

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071121#Comment_118071121

Ignoring the question I see.

If you believe in choice can my local make the choice to not allow anyone indoors?

Then we can all decide for ourselves by choice what risk level we wish to take.

Glad we agree on choice ;)

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071130#Comment_118071130

You're going for the slippery slope argument, define the rest of the slope for us so we know what to be watching for.

If they happen outside of a pandemic, we'll know we're in trouble then.

People are more free than they were a year ago. Even the unvaccinated are more free but with more restrictions than the vaccinated, that would indicate that the predictions of "taking control" haven't come to pass, you have to see that by now?

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071130#Comment_118071130

Well if everything is hunky dory and you’re happy to sit outside why are you moaning on a forum about it?

Unfortunately passes and vaccines are a necessary evil because what’s the alternative? Forever lockdowns?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071140#Comment_118071140

Is that a question looking for an answer or being facetious? I mean, the answer is hospital admissions and ICU rates.

Denmark and Sweden as a society are generally more "socially distanced" by default than the Irish would be, which helps a lot.

The swedes have a lot more control over alcohol than we do, should we copy that?

It is interesting that Sweden and Denmark have become the poster boys for anti-vaxxers despite Sweden doing worst out of the nordic countries for deaths and Denmark having a very effective vaccine rollout ahead of other countries.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071146#Comment_118071146

They can choose to follow the law. You think that your choice trumps everything.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071153#Comment_118071153

I've just told you, I am bothered by the scapegoating and a campaign of legal discrimination which is wrong in principle even if people can find workarounds.

The alternative is to scrap it and get on with life.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071129#Comment_118071129

Whether I see it as weird or not was not my point. I already told you that for me personally it would make no difference who is invited, but if you are going to defend someone on the basis of their right to choose based on their assessment of their vulnabilities then you cannot just turn around and denegate someone for doing the same for theirs.

Where did you come up with this higher mortality rate of 6% -8% for this year greater than 2020?

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071144#Comment_118071144

Yep. I see some of that but you will always get extremes on both sides here.

It is not necessarily reflected in the policy or practices of healthcare thankfully.

I just wanted to point that out.

Quags

Do people actually think vaccine passports are going to stop the covid cases from rising or staying at a steady number 😏

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071153#Comment_118071153

Do you genuinely believe that evidence exists to show that the vaccine passes are actually combating spread and ultimately the threat of further lockdowns?

growleaves

@astrofool 'Denmark and Sweden as a society are generally more "socially distanced" by default than the Irish would be, which helps a lot.'

Oh come on that's one of the silliest talking points there is, can't believe it's still being put out there.

Swedish girls have sex with guys, they aren't shunning human contact now or ever

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071164#Comment_118071164

Well hopefully they won’t at least until the antivaxxers see sense. We can’t have large groups of unvaccinated and clogging the crap hospital system we have.

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071206#Comment_118071206

Talk about clueless. Vaccine passes are to stop large groups of unvaccinated gathering in enclosed areas. Are you able to comprehend that? Will i get a piece of chalk?

Groups of unvaccinated will more likely clog hospitals than groups of vaccinated people. Are you able to understand that?

also vaccinated significantly reduces infection and transmission . Our cases would be so much higher.

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1452219731176562689?s=21

you have no argument.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071247#Comment_118071247

well aren't you an angry one

I'm talking about now where the vast majority of adults are vaccinated? Where exactly are these rampaging groups of unvaccinated?

other than in your angry head that is

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071130#Comment_118071130

Almost sounds like a supermarket.....

Micky 32

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071256#Comment_118071256

Lol not angry at all, just sarcasm. Apologies if it comes over as being angry. Yes most adults are vaccinated but it’s the minority causing most of the problems in hospitals. The hospitals are already on a knife edge so I understand the need for passes , for now at least.

We'll see how the "It's the unvaccinated " narrative holds up over the winter..

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118071284#Comment_118071284

I expect it to hold up quite well. A scapegoat is always hard to let go.