Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069462#Comment_118069462

Well maybe not like that but there was no available ICU beds which made a decision on possible treatment. It was just something i had never considered even though my brother is a consultant anathetist and reasponsible for an ICU. As in when the poster above was asking you which patient is more like to receive over the other, I’d hope more often than not the answer ‘I’d treat both’

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069474#Comment_118069474

I'm sure that they do all that they can to the best of their ability with the facilities and staff they have available at the time. I did find this article from 2016 though! https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/one-patient-a-day-dies-as-a-result-of-icu-bed-crisis-35096204.html

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can come along tomorrow and answer your question!

Penfailed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068839#Comment_118068839

I reckon they'll probably be gone by spring. The north have been more conservative than us by a few different measures and that's when they are doing away with them.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069487#Comment_118069487

Thanks so much helpful and really appreciate your candour.

pjohnson

The whole "health apartheid" thing is interesting.

The people that crow about it seem to want to be allowed to get urgent treatment from medics when they need it.

Yet they also want to refuse the treatment that could prevent them needing the urgent treatment in the first place provided by the same medics.

Those banging on about "apartheid" need to make up their minds, do they want medicines/treatments or not?

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069675#Comment_118069675

I haven’t seen apartheid used to describe how unvaccinated people felt in months. When someone on a soap box wailing that not since Jewish people had to wear a cross or imposition of Apartheid in South Africa or medical apartheid in blacm community in the US in the 50s had a group of people being discriminated against. Comparing to getting a pint inside to horrors experience by minorities is about as moronic as can be.

I do agree with your point though.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069712#Comment_118069712

Yeah it had seemed that the "apartheid" and "nazi" lingo had been dropped but its crept back in again. Shocking indictment of the education system regarding history. People using words when they don't know the meaning of them rarely helps an argument.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069675#Comment_118069675

Think you have it the wrong way round PJ. Receiving urgent care is the default position. Some seem to be arguing that a person's vaccination status should have any bearing on receiving this. That's an awful proposition for so many reasons.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069730#Comment_118069730

Not my point. I'm just pointing out that those whining about it need to make up their mind about using/trusting medicines/treatments or not.

I mean they repeatedly claim to know more than the experts that will then have to give them urgent care. Yet they still want to rely on them when it comes down to it. So are they smarter than these experts or not?

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069755#Comment_118069755

It's been that way forever, peoe drink, smoke, and take drugs against expert advice all the time and end up requiring urgent care. You'll never get 100% of people to do what they are asked to.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069778#Comment_118069778

Yes but generally alcoholics WONT get a liver transplant unless they have been sober for 4 months (maybe 6 think it varies). Being an alcoholic affects their treatment.

I never remember reading about this policy being "apartheid" or an"awful proposition". Peoples decisions regularly affect their treatment.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069829#Comment_118069829

It's still comparing apes with oranges though. The alcoholic will still receive urgent care but will have to give up alcohol before a transplant. I'm fairly sure you can't give up COVID.

You can certainly give yourself better odds by taking a vaccine but that's a completely different argument.

Richard Hillman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069712#Comment_118069712

There are countries in the EU where people without a pass cannot even go into Supermarkets. Some countries have mandates where you are not even allowed to work when you don't have the pass.

The only reason why the NPHET Government haven't introduced it was because the take-up was higher than expected. Don't for a second think they won't come after the people who won't take up the boosters. It most certainly won't be +90% take up on the boosters. And it will drop per booster.

It's important to fight this now, as opposed to when they come after the minority that won't take booster 1, and minority that won't take booster 2, and minority that won't take booster 3.

Essentially, don't give them ideas. Once they start nipping at the line, they won't stop.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070059#Comment_118070059

I’d be interesting which out of the 27 countries require COVID certs to enter supermarkets.

And those mandates are they all workplaces or just where is frontline etc

As for rollout of boosters which are only particuLar age risk categories which there is no indication it will be any to their original ones.

nphet if people the public health advice no lockdown. Again the only people who are guaranteeing a lockdown are the ones refusing the measures.

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070096#Comment_118070096

Italy you need the pass to work

France you need it to go to the super market

Latvia you need it to go to lidls.

Can we all agree that this is ridiculous given we know the virus isn't that deadly to warrant completely keeping you out of society unless vaccinated.

Dangerous path

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069829#Comment_118069829

Where would you draw the line PJ?

Because "choices have consequences" can be applied to a lot more than covid and to things you probably do now that you take for granted.

Cross that line and we are in a very dangerous place socially.

The nazis persecution of Jews crept in. Now I am not suggesting this is the same level. But listen to News Talk and they are already taking about not inviting the unvaccinated to Christmas Dinner

last Xmas nobody vaccinated we can all have dinner together. This Christmas with 90% more protection and suddenly we are gonna exclude unvaccinated family members

Do this type of talk not make you shudder at how creepy it is. Or do you just say "choices have consequences" like some dogmatic chant

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070115#Comment_118070115

Think concentrated locations for covid cert requirement for entrance into huge shopping malls which are very small number . For a supermarket outside these macro centre no requirement.

italy your right.

but nphet are not going to advise lockdown and the only way is if the people are saying not go follow the rules.

The Big Easy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066311#Comment_118066311

Surely a healthy person has the best chance of survival? Maybe we should give all the ICU beds to healthy people? Do I win the riddle?

Blut2

hospitalbeds1.jpg

Re: the talk of hospital bed capacity not getting the media coverage it deserves:

In 2017 Ireland had 1/4th the hospital bed capacity per capita that we had in 1985. Despite being a much, much richer country now. We today have one of the worst hospital beds per capita figures in Europe. This is purely down to FF & FG mismanagement of our healthcare system over the last 3 decades.

This is why we're facing into more lockdown restrictions this winter - not the 6%~ of the adult population (a large % of whom got vaccinated in the UK/EU/US, or who've had covid) are unvaccinated. Its because we have a completely unfit for purpose healthcare system, because our two main political parties have spent decades trying to move towards a privatized healthcare system like in the US.

People (and the media) urgently need to start talking about this to at least pressure the government to start adding capacity now. They've resisted until now, despite corona, because nobody is aware of it.

shockframe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070154#Comment_118070154

There might be change if the possibility of people avoiding healthcare/nursing goes up.

For all the talk of hospitals being overwhelmed and being back in lockdown there will be consequences for health care if it seems to be not fit for purpose.

Bound to be a backlash. The numbers going for nursing could plummet in the years ahead.

Micky 32

Maybe we should hop over to the UK for xmas? 😆😆

Christmas to be 'normal' - British health secretary:

“People in England can expect Christmas to be

"normal", the British Health Secretary has said, as

he urged people to have their Covid-19 vaccines.

Said Javid said no "sensible health secretary

across the world would want to predict exactly

where we're going to be in three months' time, or

six months' time", as there was a risk of new

variants posing a problem.

He told BBC Breakfast:

"For all those people like me

that are hoping and planning for a normal

Christmas - which I do by the way, I think that's

where we'll be, we'll have a normal Christmas - if

we want, let's just keep playing our part.”

crossman47

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070244#Comment_118070244

I hope they (and we) are discussing the number of Covid deaths we are prepared to tolerate before reimposing some restrictions. I know people will feel this is ghoulish but it should be done. At the moment we have about 50 a week (agreed some are dying with Covid rather than from Covid) and I feel a rise to two or three hundred would still be accepted. But if things get out of hand and it rises to say one thousand a week?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069319#Comment_118069319

Yes I do know how triage works. Part of my own job is to make those initial assessments should a major accident occur to be of assistance to medical emergency responders when arriving on scene. I would be making that assessment, and have thankfully only in emergency exercise situations, not based on any major medical training other than first responder level and a knowledge of the possibilities of medical problems in my job should things go wrong and a major accident occurs.

That is a long way removed from the type of call required of a triage doctor in a life or death situation and if I knew the decision such a doctor would make in the scenario I mentioned then I would not have asked. If people wish to believe that or not then that is up to them. Contrary to what some here I don`t go looking for some hidden agenda or conspiracy theory in every post. Some posters here from their posting on this thread, and especially others, have shown quite clearly they have certain theories and agendas but I am confident that anyone wishing to trawl through my posts will be disappointed attempted to include me in that.

Other than the agenda seekers and the banal replies there were really on two posters who made any relevant points. One being that due to having antibodies due to being vaccinated the vaccinated person would get the call. The other that due to the vaccinated person being in the situation meant that their immune response was so poor that further treatment was not going to be of any benefit and the unvaccinated person had a much better chance of survival. Two very valid points imo that show the answer to my question made it a valid one to ask.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069427#Comment_118069427

I would have said three rather than two replies in my last post of their being relevant replies to the question I asked.

Like you I have no idea of the statistics or what the criteria is or would be in such a situation, which was why I asked the question in the first place.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069096#Comment_118069096

If that is your opinion then perhaps you should be addressing your post to some who have made that comparison because I certainly have not.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070142#Comment_118070142

You seem to have some kind of obsession with winning a prize for whatever reason.

If you mean by healthy a person the one that a triage doctor will decide which has the best chance of survival, that is what the question was. What criteria would a triage doctor use in such a situation to decide.

astrofool

The only realistic scenario of vaccinated/unvaccinated coming into the treatment of health care would be if we found ourselves in the same situation as Italy was back in 2020 and that would only be because of infection control measures (and that's when they did have to make the life/death choices for individuals).

For many reasons, that is not going to happen in Ireland, so the willfully unvaccinated will be an extra burden in their stupidity while also complaining about restrictions on going to places because they're unvaccinated.

Yes, they are stupid, but no, we can't refuse to treat them even though they are so very stupid and placing a burden on everyone else.

Just relax that if you are vaccinated, you are certifiably smarter than about 10% of the population.

Of course they will be along

SupplyandDemandZone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070115#Comment_118070115

Of course it's a dangerous path and many haven't the intelligence to see they are sleep walking into that dangerous place.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070395#Comment_118070395

And now the leaders are being very smug about it.

https://twitter.com/MrsT106/status/1452256004440313856

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069220#Comment_118069220

I disagree with the implication of your comment even if China is responsible for covid.

Even with the statistical chicanery of counting deaths from cancer, heart disease, kidney disease and old age as covid deaths this 'universal worldwide global pandemic' isn't any worse than pandemics like 1968.

Creating a centralised command economy, ordering people into home confinement, masking, scapegoating sub-groups within society are all choices which previous generations would have rejected as outrageous and immoral. And they'd have been right.

Will the people of 2021 turn away from their wrong choices? No they will just lie and say that a normal life is untenable then turn back to their diet of Netflix psychological poison - Squid Game, Black Mirror, Walking Dead, Utopia etc., etc.