Mica Redress

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969508#Comment_117969508

I read this whole thread this morning and started out having great sympathies for the homeowners affected but having read some of the comments here, my sympathies have waned somewhat.

Strong leadership from government is needed to face down the unreasonable sense of entitlement of these groups and a more robust challenge of their narrative from the media is absolutely essential.

Some of the issues which are being, in my opinion, dishonestly debated by some are:

1. The obligation of the state to provide redress/compensation. It simply isn't there despite what these groups would have you believe. Any state support for these homeowners would be properly called a "grant"

2. Size matters. Any grant given by the state to affected homeowners should be capped to reflect average home size - the grant should not cover 100%. I would feel its a very good result for those affected to be grant aided to 80% of the cost of an average size house

3. 2021 building standards will be applied to these rebuilds. It simply isn't credible that they would be rebuilt to standards of 10+years ago and I think some suggesting otherwise simply as a defense to the argument that homeowners should contribute to the costs

I further believe that a grant scheme should be conditional on waiving any rights to sue the state and those who want to pursue the state should be excluded from the scheme and get nothing when their case eventually fails. Straight forward conditions would take the wind out of the sails of some of those mouthing about the obligations of the state.

Again strong government is required to face down these pressure groups and unfortunately we don't have one.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969620#Comment_117969620

Good man. Post up a copy of the complaint letter you sent to the politicians.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969858#Comment_117969858

Intriguing. Any links to the poll ?

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969957#Comment_117969957

Exactly the kind of post that turned me off this "cause". Well done - with PR like that I'm sure you'll win lots of support 🤔🤔🤔

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969950#Comment_117969950

Complaints were made to the Council in 2009. Mica blocks still being produced in 2020. Is that strong governance?

This is why this needs to go to Europe. In a grant based scheme no-one is held to account. It needs to be compensation based with far reaching powers. This can be done.

You call for strong governance now? Thats a laugh. People should really be having a close look at how this happened and how quarries are still operating that produced these blocks. That wont happen under Irelands legal system thats for sure as we have seen multiple times before.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969894#Comment_117969894

And why not spend this extra €3.2 billion on social housing - which the state here to keep - as opposed to just throwing it to some random people for nothing in return?

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969920#Comment_117969920

The government had no obligation to do the regulation - and by having a self regulation system, it meant you paid lower taxes and were able to pay for your house. I imagine if Ireland had a "state regulates" system together with all of the extra public sector workers required, the tax needed to pay for it all would mean you wouldn't have been able to pay for the house in the first place.

Complaining afterwards about the negatives of low cost regulatory system after getting the benefit seems a bit much to me.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970086#Comment_117970086

And there we have it. The people whose houses are falling down around them are now just "random people". That single comment serves to illustrate the level of ingorence in this thread.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970034#Comment_117970034

You're easily offended.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969928#Comment_117969928

Because unlike here, there is a legal obligation on the state to do so. So yes, the tax payer is meant to ensure it ( to some extent)- as a matter of EU law. Nevertheless, if you get food poisoning, you get to sue the restaurant- not the tax payer.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970114#Comment_117970114

Complaining of ignorance while unable to correctly spell the word wins ironic post of the morning 😂😂

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970116#Comment_117970116

Says the poster being offended by the "ignorance" on this thread (I didnt bother quoting your misspelling as it would be rather childish). You are single handedly turning people against this "cause". Kudos to you - some achievement 👏

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970064#Comment_117970064

Compensation is paid where a legal obligation exists. No one has successfully proven state liability here so I stand by my post. Any state support would be a grant. I'm actually now quite opposed to pandering to this entitled narrative you and others have been peddling here. I now wouldn't be surprised if this sense of entitlement results in some homeowners taking money from the state and suing for more.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970148#Comment_117970148

Lol 😂

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970114#Comment_117970114

Lots of people have had unfortunate things happen to them: businesses fail, accidents, diseases, disabilities, children born with severe disabilities, they are the victims of crime - they don't get compensation from the state unless there was a breach of some duty.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970166#Comment_117970166

Yes obviously that is what going to Europe is about. Accountability is being included.

Cases are coming to the High Court soon about compensation AND IS 465. As has happened before with other IS legislation when the case gets thrown out by our courts Irish citizens have to go to Europe for justice. It has happened and will continue to happen. I find it the attitude here very dismissive / defeatist but I guess it suits the narrative of people who dont want a proper scheme in place. Not just some headline of 350k being thrown around. That figure includes all kinds of conditions that will exclude the majority of people from finishing the scheme or being forced to accept a substandard "repair" for their home. It's well documented by now for anyone that can be bothered to look but it's easier to just pretend everyone who fills in a form on the council website magically gets a 350k cheque to spend on marble fireplaces, high spec kitchens and triple glazing.

What country do you think you live in? Does anyone on here think Irish courts will hold anyone to account without being forced to by Europe?

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970480#Comment_117970480

You're pinning alot of this on 'going to europe' via some 'working group' . You may find that there isn't nirvana there. Must have endless pockets to fill this legal challenge gap ?

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970492#Comment_117970492

1. The working group arent the ones going to Europe. Ive explained this already.

2. Its costs nothing to go to Europe if they back your case once it fails in our courts. All it takes is at least 1 person/group to go to the High Court first.

3. Thats a pretty poor response. Anything actually worth reading to add here? At least you used the word "may" and didn't pretend you somehow know for sure it wont happen as some other posters have stated.

10000maniacs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969858#Comment_117969858

That sounds like dubious information. Show me the poll.

The thing about polls is people don't generally take part unless they have a vested interest in the outcome.

And last week when people saw that €3.2 billion figure, they would have even less sympathy. A lot of the squeezed middle threw up in their mouths at that figure.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970480#Comment_117970480

As a taxpayer I think the Irish state should hold off on any grant scheme while legal action is pending. It seems strange that a legal case wasn't brought before now if all you have to do is wait for the case to fail in the High Court and appeal it to Europe. Why have people waited for years if that's the case? Why have you not taken such a case?

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970306#Comment_117970306

Plenty of people tripping on footpaths every day of the week and getting well compensated for it. who pays for that, how do you feel about that?

NIMAN

Is No one a little bit suspicious that the government are refusing to have an investigation into this debacle?

Are they afraid to find out what really happened In our quarries? And decisions made by councils?

You'd think for such a costly mess, they'd want to try to get to the bottom of it and find out what exactly went wrong.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970901#Comment_117970901

They know what happened, what they knew and how they didn’t bother to do anything about it. An investigation will tell them nothing new, but will further inform the general public.

Captain_Crash

@jj880 Hi, from reading this thread over the past few days I believe you may be impacted by this issue? If you are, firstly I hope you find a satisfactory resolution and any impact is minimalised as much as reasonably possible.

I have a question about going to Europe as I’ve noticed you mention it a few times. Having done an admittedly quick google search, I cannot find any details about any court cases or anything with the European courts… can you provide some more detail as to who has taken the matter to Europe and what the courts here found before referring the matter to the EU?

This is a complex issue which I’m sure has many aspects but if someone is in court/going to Europe is suggests blame is being laid and from what I can see so far, there is no one entity to blame but more a number of entities who can take their share.

I’m sorry if these are obvious questions but I’ve never heard of the issue until stumbling across this thread after a few pints the other night and want to learn differing POV’s. Although I do remember seeing a few people protesting outside The Dail the other day about redress, I’m presuming this is what the protest was.

fash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970480#Comment_117970480

Sounds suspiciously like the local authorities have a "legal duty", doesn't it?

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970825#Comment_117970825

This is a frustrating time for both mica home owners and those who feel their taxes should not be going towards redress in this scandal. This should have been stopped and fixed long ago. The damage should be perhaps total in the 100s of millions and not 10s of billions which is where I think it's heading.

A few home owners did get together about 8 years ago. Their solicitor produced a letter that stated the main quarry in Donegal had no indemnity insurance and told home owners they had no case. The solicitor in question then demanded a huge amount of money to hand back all documentation gathered up to that point. After that they turned to local politicians who strung them along for years with promises of help. This resulted in the scheme that is now being argued over. It now transpires the quarry had to be insured to be used by Donegal Coutny Council. This has been brought to light through the support with the help of the vast amount of people now helping and researching this. Back then it was only a handful of families involved. As for me personally I had my suspicions about my house for the last few years but cracks only started appearing during the Summer hot spell of this year. My house is at the start of the road to ruin so I am keeping myself up to date. It must be remembered this has been going on for years in Donegal with no-one being held to account. Not only that quarries allowed to continue pumping out blocks. People sitting in crumbling houses watching lorries flat out with loads from the quarry that ruined their homes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970980#Comment_117970980

I have personal experience in a case a few years ago where the EU forced Ireland to stop using legislation found to be illegal under EU legislation and then ammend it after a high court challenge. It was related to a government body and not manufacturing but the process is the same. I will not reference the case details here as that will reveal my identity. I think I will take a break from this thread. My intention is not to offend and upset anyone here but I find it hard to stomach the whole situation. My belief is that to have any chance of a satisfactory outcome here it lies in Europe as I have been through the process before. Others are of course entitled to their opinions.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971109#Comment_117971109

You are entitled to your privacy and I respect that. I am disappointed that you have chosen to take a break from the thread rather than debate the substantive issues I.e. liability and the large house sizes. It seems to me that the only tactic of homeowners is to declare that the state is liable and refuse to debate that assertion!

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970518#Comment_117970518

The poll was probably an online one on the website of one of the groups looking for this. About as reliable as a Donegal brick manufacturer.

Penfailed

https://www.highlandradio.com/2021/06/28/red-c-poll-shows-publics-support-for-100-mica-redress/

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971378#Comment_117971378

I see the poll was from last June before the €3.2 BILLION estimate and before it became clear that houses of 3,000 Square feet and larger are involved - mansions by most ordinary people's standards but, apparently, quite a normal sized gaff in Donegal!