People with a funny idea of the rules of the road.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

You can't worry about that though.
While steering around a 2 tonne metal box that can kill others is the wrong time to worry about peer-pressure.

I didn’t say I was worried. I just find it rather bizarre that someone is that aggressive.

I’ve had a few weird incidents though. I was in a shopping centre in Cork and doing absolutely nothing unusual, just driving calmly out of the centre. A car ahead of me decided that he was going to reverse into a space that he’d passed. No indicators. No slowing. Nothing to show what he was planning to do.

He got out of the car and started roaring at me and tried to open my door and then kicked the car (did no damage.)

Also at a junction in Cork City where there’s a left/right lane marked and a right only lane. I was turning right and there was traffic & you need to be in correct lane for next junction.

I was turning right. In the correct lane. Left fly light came on. Nothing I could do. Guy beeps. I ignored him. Beeps longer. Ignored him. Gets out of his car and opened my door?! Then starts roaring at me. I closed my door. He opened it again. At this stage all lights are green and everyone started beeping at him.

We had a car go into the back of a taxi I was in in dublin too. Guy got out and blamed the taxi driver for stopping on amber. This was in the city centre too - so 30 to 50km/h is all he should have been doing. Delayed for meeting as a result.

If I’ve had incidents like that, I don’t think they’re unusual.

Some utter psychos out there.

AndrewJRenko

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

I didn’t say I was worried. I just find it rather bizarre that someone is that aggressive.

I’ve had a few weird incidents though. I was in a shopping centre in Cork and doing absolutely nothing unusual, just driving calmly out of the centre. A car ahead of me decided that he was going to reverse into a space that he’d passed. No indicators. No slowing. Nothing to show what he was planning to do.

He got out of the car and started roaring at me and tried to open my door and then kicked the car (did no damage.)

Also at a junction in Cork City where there’s a left/right lane marked and a right only lane. I was turning right and there was traffic & you need to be in correct lane for next junction.

I was turning right. In the correct lane. Left fly light came on. Nothing I could do. Guy beeps. I ignored him. Beeps longer. Ignored him. Gets out of his car and opened my door?! Then starts roaring at me. I closed my door. He opened it again. At this stage all lights are green and everyone started beeping at him.

We had a car go into the back of a taxi I was in in dublin too. Guy got out and blamed the taxi driver for stopping on amber. This was in the city centre too - so 30 to 50km/h is all he should have been doing. Delayed for meeting as a result.

If I’ve had incidents like that, I don’t think they’re unusual.

Some utter psychos out there.

Speaking of Cork

https://twitter.com/prasanna_r0/status/1404414422592917504?s=19

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Yeah that’s pretty abysmal. I think it’s down to it previously being a yield & the yield still being painted on the road.

I’m a bit unsure that people are entirely clear on what the red arrows mean too, even though it should be blatantly obvious and there are quite a few of them in use on junctions around Cork at this stage.

Seth Brundle

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

I’m a bit unsure that people are entirely clear on what the red arrows mean too, even though it should be blatantly obvious and there are quite a few of them in use on junctions around Cork at this stage.

In fairness, if someone is unable to figure out what a red signal is for then maybe they should not be in charge of a vehicle on the road.
We excuse far too much incompetence when it comes to people driving.

tDw6u1bj

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fairness, if someone is unable to figure out what a red signal is for then maybe they should not be in charge of a vehicle on the road.
We excuse far too much incompetence when it comes to people driving.

You're right, but I also think it's bad design.

Red means "stop", arrow means "go this way". That gives us two instincts working against each other. Sure the brain will kick in in a moment and tell us the red bit is more important, but it would be better to not have that at all.

A simple red light conveys the message better.

frozenfrozen

put an unmarked car there for a few days and sort it out. There's nothing wrong with slip roads and everything wrong with someone missing a red light

ForestFire

Agree, the red should be solid.

Arrows can be green or flashing amber, but never seen a red arrow before.

wildwillow

I was merging into the M7 near Naas this afternoon.

Lorry passed, plenty of space before next lorry, my speed fine.

Indicated to join, started to move into lane when a Tesco delivery van travelling beside the lorry decided to leave the middle lane and enter the first lane alongside me.
I had to sharply veer left to avoid it and luckily there was no traffic on the merging lane.

I still don't know how I noticed it in the wing mirror as the lorry behind me was shielding him from my view but he should have been able to see me easily.

Merged after lorry and lucky to have a powerful car to build up speed in the space that remained.

Seth Brundle

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fairness, if someone is unable to figure out what a red signal is for then maybe they should not be in charge of a vehicle on the road.
We excuse far too much incompetence when it comes to people driving.

You're right, but I also think it's bad design.

Red means "stop", arrow means "go this way". That gives us two instincts working against each other. Sure the brain will kick in in a moment and tell us the red bit is more important, but it would be better to not have that at all.

A simple red light conveys the message better.

You're literally confirming my point by excusing their driving through a red light because of the shape of the light.
You've just excused their incompetence. :rolleyes:

CoBo55

This really is the thread that gives everything, I'm loving it:):)
Found a bloody chip on my windscreen today, betchya it was that cyclist I passed earlier:mad:

tDw6u1bj

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You're literally confirming my point by excusing their driving through a red light because of the shape of the light.
You've just excused their incompetence. :rolleyes:

You said that a person should be able to figure out what it means.

I said they should, but they shouldn't have to.

It isn't excusing anything, a person should still be able to stop but the reality is that moment taken to figure it out will mean slower reactions and is brain-power taken away from spotting other potential hazards.

People are responsible for their own driving, but realistically everyone is going to mess something up a certain percentage of the time. Design like this increases that percentage and makes roads a little less safe (for what appears to be no other benefit). Safer road designs lead to fewer people getting hurt, that's the most important thing.

ForestFire

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You're literally confirming my point by excusing their driving through a red light because of the shape of the light.
You've just excused their incompetence. :rolleyes:

There is also a case of just bad design....and road engineers should make signage clear and concise to avoid unnecessary confusion.

The RSA rules of the road describe the following lights, in the traffic light section with images.

Solid lights:-
Red
Amber
Green

Arrow lights:-
Green
Amber


So no red arrow light ever mention in the rules of the road, and people are not previously aware of such, which leads to confusion.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Traffic Signs Manual 2019:

See: 9.2.11

https://assets.gov.ie/34735/fb85c77684d045b495b70335d8d3cf20.pdf

“ Red/Amber/Green Arrow Signal

9.2.11 Where it is necessary to control vehicles making a particular movement (usually a right turn), a second signal head may be erected alongside the head controlling adjacent traffic movements. The second head should display red, amber and green arrows in place of full aspects (see Figure 9.4). This arrangement avoids the display of a more conspicuous full red aspect halting only turning traffic when other traffic has a green aspect. Arrows may point to the left or right, or upwards to denote a straight-ahead movement”

The logic of it is also to prevent exactly what those cars are doing, by removing any ambiguity that the a full red only applies to the main line and they can go through the slip by yielding.

I’d say it’s more a “sure this was always a yield, like!”

Waiting to enter roundabout, car approaching from the junction to your right (with no indicator flashing) gets thereas you do
You stop to let them do their thing, and they cosy up to the line, then take forever to actually enter the roundabout
As they're entering, they then immediately pull off at your exit without a hint of a flash from the indicators
You're still waiting to get on because there's another gimp entering without any indicators and you're not sure if he's the same or if he's actually going straight through the roundabout and so you have to yield

People just take the piss, all the damn time.

wildwillow

wildwillow wrote: »

I was merging into the M7 near Naas this afternoon.

Lorry passed, plenty of space before next lorry, my speed fine.

Indicated to join, started to move into lane when a Tesco delivery van travelling beside the lorry decided to leave the middle lane and enter the first lane alongside me.
I had to sharply veer left to avoid it and luckily there was no traffic on the merging lane.

I still don't know how I noticed it in the wing mirror as the lorry behind me was shielding him from my view but he should have been able to see me easily.

Merged after lorry and lucky to have a powerful car to build up speed in the space that remained.

Madness that that’s allowed. A lot of countries put a solid/broken pair along a merge to indicate not to pull towards the inside.

tDw6u1bj

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Traffic Signs Manual 2019:

See: 9.2.11

https://assets.gov.ie/34735/fb85c77684d045b495b70335d8d3cf20.pdf

“ Red/Amber/Green Arrow Signal

9.2.11 Where it is necessary to control vehicles making a particular movement (usually a right turn), a second signal head may be erected alongside the head controlling adjacent traffic movements. The second head should display red, amber and green arrows in place of full aspects (see Figure 9.4). This arrangement avoids the display of a more conspicuous full red aspect halting only turning traffic when other traffic has a green aspect. Arrows may point to the left or right, or upwards to denote a straight-ahead movement”

The logic of it is also to prevent exactly what those cars are doing, by removing any ambiguity that the a full red only applies to the main line and they can go through the slip by yielding.

I’d say it’s more a “sure this was always a yield, like!”

That's not what it says though. According to that it's been used not how it was intended.

The intended situation is more commonly (and clearly) signalled with a straight ahead filter green and a right turn filter green.
This is a slip road left so it's totally different and would be clearer with regular signalling anyway.

tDw6u1bj

Side note:

Seeing as all these are LEDs now anyway, is there any reason not to have a single square display that displays only one signal at a time. It would reduce clutter and make changing configurations something that could be done all in software.

Fast2move

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Waiting to enter roundabout, car approaching from the junction to your right (with no indicator flashing) gets thereas you do
You stop to let them do their thing, and they cosy up to the line, then take forever to actually enter the roundabout
As they're entering, they then immediately pull off at your exit without a hint of a flash from the indicators
You're still waiting to get on because there's another gimp entering without any indicators and you're not sure if he's the same or if he's actually going straight through the roundabout and so you have to yield

People just take the piss, all the damn time.

I’m not being pedantic but if it helps...you yield to traffic already on the roundabout. It sounds to me if you enter the roundabout and he entered the roundabout the same time you would still be ahead of him due to positioning. In theory 4 cars can enter the roundabout at the same time. It sounds to me that if you have to wait for him to enter the roundabout that’s the space that you should’ve gone into

Hope it helps

ClosedAccountFuzzy

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

That's not what it says though. According to that it's been used not how it was intended.

The intended situation is more commonly (and clearly) signalled with a straight ahead filter green and a right turn filter green.
This is a slip road left so it's totally different and would be clearer with regular signalling anyway.

It depends on what they're trying to do with the junction.

The addition of red arrows brings a whole load of flexibility for adding pedestrian crossing and so on.

I don't think it's any less clear.

I think the issue there is a mixture of local arrogance and drivers on autopilot who are used to the old junction.

They often have to put up NEW JUNCTION ARRANGEMENT AHEAD!!! type signage for months after they put in a new junction because of that kind of thing.

I've seen far worse with use of green straight ahead arrows and full red, people often still turn on those, and take the green arrow to mean green and just ignore the red entirely. There was an infamous example of it in Cork at Turner's Cross and there are plenty of others too.

If anything a red arrow should seem more definitely DO NOT TURN.

The only way you'd get people to cop on on that junction is a pile of tickets.

AndrewJRenko

Spook_ie wrote: »

Because at the end of the day regardless of the number of single occupancy cars in a queue of traffic a cyclist is permitted to overtake on either side, that's probably reason enough for cars etc. not to worry about cyclists in the queue.

Motorists are permitted to overtake on either side, so I'm not seeing the fundamental difference. If we expect cyclists to space out, why not expect the same courtesy of others. Any line of more than 12-15 cars should have to leave 5 car lengths in between as a courtesy.

Seems perfectly sensible, right? Or just as sensible as the proposal for cyclists to have to spread out in any case.

Isambard

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Motorists are permitted to overtake on either side, so I'm not seeing the fundamental difference. If we expect cyclists to space out, why not expect the same courtesy of others. Any line of more than 12-15 cars should have to leave 5 car lengths in between as a courtesy.

Seems perfectly sensible, right? Or just as sensible as the proposal for cyclists to have to spread out in any case.

not quite the case. Only in very limited circumstances may you pass on the left, generally you can't

Kewreeuss

While I said earlier that for a lot of people a red traffic light isn’t really red for the first 4 seconds and loads go through them without any problem, I understood that if you are approaching a junction and the light changes to amber you are perfectly entitled to continue if you can get across before the light turns red. If you are approaching at speed you don’t have to jam on.
This is completely different from arriving at a red light and blithely shooting through.

AndrewJRenko

Kewreeuss wrote: »

I understood that if you are approaching a junction and the light changes to amber you are perfectly entitled to continue if you can get across before the light turns red. If you are approaching at speed you don’t have to jam on.

Please hand over your keys to a competent driver and take some driving lessons before you drive again.

1) For an amber light, you should stop if it is safe to do so.
2) If you have to jam on, you were driving too fast. It shouldn't be a surprise to any driver that a green light is going to go amber, and an amber light is going to go red. You need to be expecting the green to change, not pretending that this came as a total surprise to you.

AndrewJRenko

Isambard wrote: »

not quite the case. Only in very limited circumstances may you pass on the left, generally you can't

From https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules%20of%20the%20Road.pdf

REMEMBER
You must normally overtake on the right. However, you are allowed to overtake on the left in the situations listed below.
You may overtake on the left when
You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly but traffic in the left-hand lane is moving more quickly than the right-hand lane – for example, in slow moving stop-start traffic.

Kewreeuss

This happens regularly at two junctions that I use.
The junctions are massive, so the lights are on each side of the junction, ie you stop at the lights and you can see them also over the other side.
Then the light goes green for the traffic coming from the left or the right.
The cars that do a 90 degree turn to the left turn the corner, see the red light and stop!!
There follows much horn blowing and gesticulating from behind.
This is not an occasional occurrence. Slightly to blame is the sheer size of the junctions but mostly it’s the nincompoops (to be polite) that are driving.
Has anyone else seen this happening at other junctions?
The carriageways are also very narrow close to the head of the junction and artics, of which there are many, have to slow to a crawl so as not to hit the central structure. I don’t know if they were designed that way or just badly built.

grogi

Kewreeuss wrote: »

This happens regularly at two junctions that I use.
The junctions are massive, so the lights are on each side of the junction, ie you stop at the lights and you can see them also over the other side.
Then the light goes green for the traffic coming from the left or the right.
The cars that do a 90 degree turn to the left turn the corner, see the red light and stop!!
There follows much horn blowing and gesticulating from behind.
This is not an occasional occurrence. Slightly to blame is the sheer size of the junctions but mostly it’s the nincompoops (to be polite) that are driving.
Has anyone else seen this happening at other junctions?
The carriageways are also very narrow close to the head of the junction and artics, of which there are many, have to slow to a crawl so as not to hit the central structure. I don’t know if they were designed that way or just badly built.

How do you decide if the traffic signal you see should be ignored it obeyed?

It is purely signalling issue. The signaling (lack of) standards on Irish roads are to blame, especially repeated signals after the junction .

OldmanMondeo

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Please hand over your keys to a competent driver and take some driving lessons before you drive again.

1) For an amber light, you should stop.

Fixed that for you. Amber mean STOP, not prepare to Stop, or only stop if safe to do so., just stop.

joe40

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Fixed that for you. Amber mean STOP, not prepare to Stop, or only stop if safe to do so., just stop.

It is well known that Irish traffic lights have the following meanings:

Green: Go
Amber: Accelerate
Red: proceed with caution.

AndrewJRenko

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Fixed that for you. Amber mean STOP, not prepare to Stop, or only stop if safe to do so., just stop.

From https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules%20of%20the%20Road.pdf

An amber light means that you must not go beyond the stop line or, if there is no stop line, you must not go beyond the light. However, you may go on if you are so close to the line or the light when the amber light first appears that stopping would be dangerous.

Witcher

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Fixed that for you. Amber mean STOP, not prepare to Stop, or only stop if safe to do so., just stop.

No it doesn't.