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Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.
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How is it not the refs duties to check those things?As the rule book currently stands, it is not the duty of the ref to check the equipment as such. If they become aware of a hurl with a loose band, then yes, they can ask that the hurl be replaced.
It is not their in their duties to inspect pitch markings, nets, etc. If they believe that they are not in order they report the matter.
Re helmets, they are expected to take action on helmets with missing bars. But how often is this done??
Nothing in the rule book about checking studs, whether it be missing studs or the length of them.
Rule book quotes the hurl size but nothing about policing it. Do you honestly expect the ref to have a measuring tape?? if so, what else should they have??
I am not standing over the rule book at all. It clearly needs a proper overhaul and until that is done don't expect any movement on this issue.
What role is the sweeper playing in the game? It creates the spare man up the other end of the pitch and the time for a player to take the long distant shots. God be with the days when it was man on man and players didn't have as much time on the ball!!!
The rules of the game/association state pitches, ball etc must meet certain standards no so if not the ref then who is there to ensure these standards are met before a game?
On studs. It was an example from other sports of what referees do wrt players equipment etc
Who cares if it isnt always man on man and there is a sweeper now. Games evolve. tactics change.0 -
Lost Ormond wrote: »
Who cares if it isnt always man on man and there is a sweeper now. Games evolve. tactics change.
Why have we got this thread then??1 -
bucketybuck wrote: »You are effectively saying that it is not the referees job to ensure that players are following the rules, when I would have said that that is his only job.
His duty is to apply the playing rules. Should he also look at ensuring the following?:
4.4 (i) The diameter of the Sliotar - not including the rim (rib) - shall be between 69mm. and 72mm.
The mass of the Sliotar shall be between 110 and 120 grams.
The rim (rib) height shall be between 2.0mm. and 2.8mm.
The rim (rib) width shall be between 3.6 mm. and 5.4mm.
The thickness of the leather cover shall be between 1.8mm. and 2.7mm. and shall not be laminated with a coating greater than 0.15mm.0 -
Lost Ormond wrote: »How is it not the refs duties to check those things?
The rules of the game/association state pitches, ball etc must meet certain standards no so if not the ref then who is there to ensure these standards are met before a game?
On studs. It was an example from other sports of what referees do wrt players equipment etc
Who cares if it isnt always man on man and there is a sweeper now. Games evolve. tactics change.
Read the rules below and show me where it says its the refs duty?
https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/i4xicuecdjcyj3bgb52f.pdf0 -
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Read the rules below and show me where it says its the refs duty?
https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/i4xicuecdjcyj3bgb52f.pdf
But surely the point is that all rules regarding match day is the refs duty. Being on the field with an illegal Hurley is cheating so would come under the refs remit surely0 -
breezy1985 wrote: »But surely the point is that all rules regarding match day is the refs duty. Being on the field with an illegal Hurley is cheating so would come under the refs remit surely
I am not arguing that point. I am saying that the rule book in its current format is not fit for purpose and needs to be changed to address the issues discussed above. Yes, I'd agree that the ref should police the issues more, but within reason. Taking a measuring tape or weighing scales out, to me, is not within reason.0 -
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I am not arguing that point. I am saying that the rule book in its current format is not fit for purpose and needs to be changed to address the issues discussed above. Yes, I'd agree that the ref should police the issues more, but within reason. Taking a measuring tape or weighing scales out, to me, is not within reason.
The sliotar is an easy one. Just have an official designated match ball which I think the GAA finally have now with the chipped one. You would not need to check every hurley you could just copy other sports and do random checks before each game on one or two and players would fall in line . You could also check any that looked blatantly suspect0 -
The refs duties include controlling the game in accordance with the Playing Rules.
Read the rules below and show me where it says its the refs duty?
https://www.gaa.ie/api/pdfs/image/upload/i4xicuecdjcyj3bgb52f.pdf
That should be including before a game and ensuring all players start the game with equipment that meets the regulations and allow player find a suitable replacement in time for throw in...0 -
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breezy1985 wrote: »I don't know why so many people hate the hand pass. I love watching how teams move the ball about now
But the ball is moving about too fast is the problem. And handpassing is a cheap skill even when its legal and I for one would love it curtailed and there are several ways to do that.
People referring to Lar Corbett goals and others as reasons to hold on to hand passes should remember when they tried to get rid of the hand pass into the goal in the 80's people pointed to Johnny Flahertys memorable goal in the 81 final as a reason not to get rid of it. Yes it was a memorable goal but no reason to keep doing it.0 -
Davys Fits wrote: »But the ball is moving about too fast is the problem. And handpassing is a cheap skill even when its legal and I for one would love it curtailed and there are several ways to do that.
People referring to Lar Corbett goals and others as reasons to hold on to hand passes should remember when they tried to get rid of the hand pass into the goal in the 80's people pointed to Johnny Flahertys memorable goal in the 81 final as a reason not to get rid of it. Yes it was a memorable goal but no reason to keep doing it.
Playing the ball out and retaining possession is way more a skill than hoofing it down the pitch like the "good old days"1 -
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All the talk about the weight of the sliotar reminded me of this article from a few months back. It definitely seems plausible to me that the change to a molded core compared to the previous wool and cork would have a huge impact on consistency of the sliotar and have an impact on the game.
I would use the analogy of trying to kick a cheap football versus an O'Neills - with the cheap football most of the time it was fine but on those occasions where you got a poor contact it could skew off in any direction so you tended to be a bit more conservative in terms of length of passes attempted. Whereas with an O'Neills the quality was so much better and the ball was more forgiving even if you didn't get a perfect contact. It's probably an exaggerrated analogy but I wouldn't be surprised if the same sort of relationship is there between the old cork and wool sliotar versus the modern molded core sliotar. I would say if you looked at golf balls there would be a similar relationship in terms of the manufacure of modern galf balls and their consistency versus previous generations of golf balls where the balls manufactured weren't as consistent and the driving lengths.Kevin Cummins: A consistent sliotar has had a huge impact on how hurling is played
Now that most past provincial, National League and All-Ireland hurling finals are available online, the dramatic improvement in skill levels in the past 15 years is dramatic
Kevin Cummins: A consistent sliotar has had a huge impact on how hurling is played
THU, 29 OCT, 2020 - 06:30
KEVIN CUMMINS
John Fogarty’s article in Tuesday’s Irish Examiner gave a vivid picture of the impact Covid-19 has had on inter-county competitions, both from the players’ and the journalists’ perspective. I was interested in the '10 reasons for high scores' and while I agree with most of them I would like to add some light and, maybe, contradict his point on the sliotar.
As my family has a vested interest in said sliotar, I have watched with interest the mounting scores in games in recent years and the accompanying commentary.
There is no doubt that the huge improvement in skill levels and conditioning of the modern hurler in our own lifetime has played a massive part in the increased scoring.
Now that most, if not all, past provincial, National League and All-Ireland hurling finals are available online, the dramatic improvement in skill levels in, say, the past 15 years is dramatic.
However, I have no doubt that the consistency of the sliotar in recent times has had a huge bearing on the improvement in skill levels that we marvel at today.
We have been manufacturing our ‘All-Star’ sliotar now for 45 years, since 1975. The ‘All-Star’ was first used in an All-Ireland final in 1976 – giving rise to my late father’s quip from high up in the Hogan Stand, “They’re my balls they’re playing with” - ignoring the fact that his two sons were also playing!
My late father, Willie Cummins - in the half-back line with Christy Ring when the latter won his first All-Ireland medal for minor hurling in 1938 - began making the ball that still bears his signature today in a garden shed at the back of our house in Ballinlough.
At that time the core of the ball consisted of a small cork ball – about the size of a golf ball – which was wound around with, well, whatever you’re having yourself! It depended on what was available at the time: wool, twine, hemp, gut, whatever he could get his hands on.
Eventually, he struck up an arrangement with Youghal Carpets who supplied him with remnants of cones of wool used in the making of their carpets which lent a certain consistency to the finished ball.
Willie gathered around him a loose collection of retirees like himself, many of whom were shoemakers, well used to working with leather, who worked from home stitching balls for him. He would provide them with the raw materials, pre-cut and punched leather ‘figures of eight’ and pre-wound cores of cork and wool and he would travel around the county collecting their handiwork which he would then bring home to polish the rims and stamp them with his name and coat of arms.
Because my father wasn’t the only sliotar-man working from home – every county had their own source of sliotars – there was huge inconsistency in the standard of balls produced. Still, in those early years, my father’s sliotar was regularly chosen by Croke Park on All-Ireland day. (Would it be too boastful to mention that the Wm. Cummins ‘All-Star’ sliotar has been the ball of choice for the past 10 All-Ireland finals!).
Croke Park finally took a stand and introduced specific specifications for the sliotar.
In order to be awarded the Croke Park official stamp, manufacturers had to submit a dozen balls to Dublin City University for testing: weight, diameter, co-efficient of restitution (how high the ball bounces from a steel floor when dropped from a given height).
In order to keep track of how our manufacturing process was faring, we persuaded Cork IT to set up a lab where the DCU tests were replicated and we could stay on the straight and narrow with our sliotar specs.
As my father’s generation of stitchers began to die away and it became impossible to replace them, the manufacture of sliotars moved to Pakistan, a country synonymous with the manufacture of cricket balls for their native sport.
The issue of under-age labour being used there at the time alarmed me. However I've made four trips to our supplier - two unannounced, I just landed in on top of him - and I found the set-up impeccable. My last visit was in February this year.
This move also coincided with the introduction of a moulded core to replace the traditional hand-wound woollen centre with all its inconsistencies – and that has made all the difference.
This is when the sliotar as we know it today ‘came of age’. It now became possible to produce sliotars of a consistency that was impossible heretofore. This meant that every night a team went out to train or play a match they were using exactly the same sliotar as they used the first night they began training.
I’m sure Pat Horgan must hit close to a thousand frees every week. When he stood over that far-from-easy free in the last minute of the All-Ireland semi-final against Limerick two years ago he could be assured the ball that faced him was exactly the same ball he pucked around with up in the Glen Field at the start of the season.
The ball is exactly the same weigh as it always was, it’s the same dimensions as it always was, but it’s the consistency of the core that has changed the ball for the better.
And it’s this consistency, in my opinion, that has made a huge difference to the confidence the modern hurler has when handling or striking the sliotar.
I’m always intrigued when watching subs puck-around at half time – when they’re allowed on the sacred sod - and the ’tricks’ they can effortlessly perform, especially when controlling a ball struck towards them. The ability of the ‘modern’ player to bring a flying sliotar under control effortlessly with his hurley can be breath-taking.
It’s a theory I’ve held for some time now: the consistent sliotar has had a huge impact on how the game of hurling is played – or can be played, with pin-point accuracy in the pass and the score-taking.
We’ll just have to see how the yellow sliotar fares, although I must confess it looked really well at the weekend on TV – especially when the flood-light were switched on. (The morning after the announcement from Croke Park I had to drop balls down to the Cork lads in Páirc Uí Rínn and then drive to Galway, Limerick, Ennis and Thurles delivering yellow balls to the county teams, as well as couriering balls to Dublin and Wexford.)
These inter-county guys don’t let the grass grow under their feet...
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40072343.html0 -
Rasputin11 wrote: »
There wouldn't be many around that know more about hurling than Fogarty - although the fact that he was a big part of the Kilkenny "manly hurling" could call his consistency into question. He's absolutely right - the ultimate solution to too many frees is cut out the fouls. For me the issue is ot the number of frees - it's the fact that any free is an almost guaranteed point0 -
Rasputin11 wrote: »
A key issue is that even with frees being scorable from way out the field teams continue to foul.
If you want to remove foul play from the game you have to penalise foul play.
It's clear that the current rules don't punish foul play enough - if it did players wouldn't be fouling.
Personally I would look to see some games played under a rule where every free was worth 2 points. Another option would be that players get sent off from repeated fouling - any player who concedes more than 5 fouls in a game gets sent off. Or have a system whereby there is a team fouling limit - if a team concedes more than 15 fouls the opposition gets a penalty - or for every foul conceded over 10 fouls the fouled team gets a 65 in front of the posts. Basically players/teams are not going to stop fouling until they start being punished for it. Reward those who don't foul and punish those who do and before long teams and players will cut down on the fouling.
Sadly I hold out little hope of anything like this ever coming to pass - the attitude in the GAA to fouling is that it's just something that happens as opposed to the fact under the current GAA rules [in football as well] if a player goes out onto the pitch and doesn't engage in foul play constantly they are at a significant disadvantage to the player who does engage in foul play[cheats] constantly.0 -
breezy1985 wrote: »Playing the ball out and retaining possession is way more a skill than hoofing it down the pitch like the "good old days"
Who mentioned hoofing the ball? There are more skillful ways of keeping possession than throwing it around the place. It takes a very good soccer side to put more than 3 or 4 passes together. Thats because its difficult and skillful. Trying to make the game easier so we can hold on to possession just dilutes the skills of the game.0 -
Davys Fits wrote: »Who mentioned hoofing the ball? There are more skillful ways of keeping possession than throwing it around the place. It takes a very good soccer side to put more than 3 or 4 passes together. Thats because its difficult and skillful. Trying to make the game easier so we can hold on to possession just dilutes the skills of the game.
Who is trying to make it easier. I am not promoting anything that will make hand passing easier0 -
Rasputin11 wrote: »
His point on throw-balls becoming rucks is spot-on as well.
I think it's even worse in football when there is a throw-ball.
The application of the rules around throw-balls is a disaster zone.
If they changed the distance that the players have to be back to 30 metres as opposed to the current 13 metres [in both codes] I think it would improve matters and make life a bit easier for refs. 30 metres would mean that there would be a chance of an actual contest and also mean the ref could focus on the players involved in the throw-in a bit more as opposed to the crowd of players who are all probaly within 5 metres. The current situation is that it's a case of both sides being as bad as each other and the ref being unable to blow for a free given both teams are infringing - the punishment for both sides infringing at a throw-up is a throw-up which has to be one of the daftest loopholes in the GAA rule book. Maybe when changing the distance from 13 metres to 30 metres make it 10 minutes in the sin-bin for any player infringing so that the ref could pick the closest player from each team who are not contesting the throw-ball who are inside 13 metres and give them 10 minutes in the sin bin. Before long players would do a much better job of staying back.
I would love to see some team who actually told the ref ahead of time that they would be staying back 13 metres for any throw-balls and then clearly all stayed back at leat 13 metres while shouting 13 metres to the ref in a championship game. By the rules, the ref would have to award another throw-up but this time I'd imagine that both sides would be back the 13 metres. It could be very benefical for a football side to do this if they got a throw ball near the oppostion's goal, if they had someone who was good odds to win a throw-ball as you could potentially have a decent goal chance from this scenario.
Also refs start to actually enforce this rule - the percentage of times this rule is actually enforced is tiny - in football pretty much the only time you see it enforced is when a player who is not one of the two contesting the throw-up catches the ball. I say that if you look at throw-ups in football and hurling over the championship, this rule will widely ignored. One thing that might drive Croke Park to look at the whole area of throw-balls is the fact that the number should rise in football a bit given they are the punishment for breaching the new kick-out rules.
Also the reason why I would say change the limit to 30 metres is that in football especially when a player wins a throw-ball what invariably happens is that because there are so many players closer than the 13 metres he gets swallowed up and the ref either gives a free to him or against him for over-carrying. The hurling situation isn't quite as bad as the football one because simply swarming the player is a more effective move in football as opposed to hurling due to the ease of moving the ball on in football versus hurling (not penalising throwing the ball in hurling helps a lot in this situation)0 -
breezy1985 wrote: »Playing the ball out and retaining possession is way more a skill than hoofing it down the pitch like the "good old days"
V.few teams/players have the skill levels to do this at pace though?
Lads pricking around passing ball inside the 45 while opposition have flooded players back and shooting from 80 yards isnt skilful......
ball skill levels have fallen off a cliff....when was last time a player scored from a ground strike or overhead double on the ball?
Everyone taught from young age to move ball quick as you can,into space for players to run onto and all of a sudden,we're sold a half rugby nonsemse of build possession and take ball into contact....as progress,
Everything people laugh at rugby for are now considered progress,when in reality its a mask for lower skill levels among average players as top ones are so far ahead now0 -
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Great article.
There's always tons of noise around rule changes when they take effect in the league and there's a bedding in period. Lots of 'the game is gone' merchants. But eventually the players adapt and there's a new scourge next year.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »V.few teams/players have the skill levels to do this at pace though?
Lads pricking around passing ball inside the 45 while opposition have flooded players back and shooting from 80 yards isnt skilful......
ball skill levels have fallen off a cliff....when was last time a player scored from a ground strike or overhead double on the ball?
Everyone taught from young age to move ball quick as you can,into space for players to run onto and all of a sudden,we're sold a half rugby nonsemse of build possession and take ball into contact....as progress,
Everything people laugh at rugby for are now considered progress,when in reality its a mask for lower skill levels among average players as top ones are so far ahead now
"ball skill levels have fallen off a cliff" is exactly the kind of back in my day rosey eyed stuff I can't stand. The games were not as skillful as you remember and there are still all those kinds of goals you describe. Cork scored one last week against Limerick for instance and we currently have the greatest sideline cutter of all time playing the game.
Have a look back at Limericks goals in the 2018 final of the 3 1 was off the ground and 1 off the stick with no hands
99% of strikes of the ground back in the day were pure pull and hope stuff with very little skill0 -
breezy1985 wrote: »"ball skill levels have fallen off a cliff" is exactly the kind of back in my day rosey eyed stuff I can't stand. The games were not as skillful as you remember and there are still all those kinds of goals you describe. Cork scored one last week against Limerick for instance and we currently have the greatest sideline cutter of all time playing the game.
Have a look back at Limericks goals in the 2018 final of the 3 1 was off the ground and 1 off the stick with no hands
99% of strikes of the ground back in the day were pure pull and hope stuff with very little skill
Like i said,this build possession is only a guise used to paper over poor ball skill levels,the fact it cant be done at pace kinda points to obvious conclusion
I seen players last sunday,playing senior who couldnt pick ball up first time running,you would pick u14 players if they couldnt....its one of most basic
Yes,there is undoubtfully exceptional players playing at the min (prob 3 of best players ever to play for waterford are playing now).....but this build possession/pricking around is being used to cover fact the exceptional players are that far ahead of average players,they cant conpete with em and need drag em down to a dogfight (IE skills shortage)
Hurling is at a crossroads where it acknowledge and reward exceptional skill levels....or become like the muck that is mostly football or a farce of a game like rugby (should be banned imo).....and try pretend its progress...
bit like tyrone taught they re-invented football for a while,when in reality they had some exceptional footballers,whos true skills arent fully appreicated0 -
I am not arguing that point. I am saying that the rule book in its current format is not fit for purpose and needs to be changed to address the issues discussed above. Yes, I'd agree that the ref should police the issues more, but within reason. Taking a measuring tape or weighing scales out, to me, is not within reason.
How would you recommend establishing the size of the bas of a hurley then if a measuring tape is within reason. Just say "ah Jaysus lads"?0 -
breezy1985 wrote: »
we currently have the greatest sideline cutter of all time playing the game.
You are some man for your age.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Like i said,this build possession is only a guise used to paper over poor ball skill levels,the fact it cant be done at pace kinda points to obvious conclusion
I seen players last sunday,playing senior who couldnt pick ball up first time running,you would pick u14 players if they couldnt....its one of most basic
Yes,there is undoubtfully exceptional players playing at the min (prob 3 of best players ever to play for waterford are playing now).....but this build possession/pricking around is being used to cover fact the exceptional players are that far ahead of average players,they cant conpete with em and need drag em down to a dogfight (IE skills shortage)
Hurling is at a crossroads where it acknowledge and reward exceptional skill levels....or become like the muck that is mostly football or a farce of a game like rugby (should be banned imo).....and try pretend its progress...
bit like tyrone taught they re-invented football for a while,when in reality they had some exceptional footballers,whos true skills arent fully appreicated
See again you are basing this on some dream that never existed of teams full of players whipping the ball off the ground with ease but the truth is there was always loads of times players would fail to pick up a ball first time running just as much as now which isn't even that much tbh.
Hurling is full of skill as much or more than most other decades and is at no dangerous crossroads0 -
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breezy1985 wrote: »Am I wrong about that. Ya I know fancy hurleys and sliotars these days but Cannings stats are way above anyone else even accounting for modern equipment
It's getting to the stage that when Canning gets a line ball a point is expected. Most top level county teams have a player that can get points from line balls, though obviously not as reliable as Joe. Something as amazing as a point off the ground from the sideline should be remarkable but it's almost mundane. It is also a free shot, with no interference where the player tees the ball up for himself. As the old joke about a player getting 147 in the snooker - "sure why wouldn't he and nobody marking him!"0 -
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breezy1985 wrote: »See again you are basing this on some dream that never existed of teams full of players whipping the ball off the ground with ease but the truth is there was always loads of times players would fail to pick up a ball first time running just as much as now which isn't even that much tbh.
Hurling is full of skill as much or more than most other decades and is at no dangerous crossroads
Yous have latched onto the ground striking issue,and saying i imagine teams full of it,when i have never said nor insuinated such
Mate,your playing up this pricking around in the backs as the future and skilful,when its been pointed out,its many things,but skilful it simply isnt
What % of intercounty defenders are gauranteed 1st time control via stick under pressure,this should be a minimum requirement for it,but i can tell yous at best 2 of the 6 backs,who started last sunday for waterford would in my opioion be capable of such....
can this skill be speeded up to its limit,or will it just become a handpass game....to accomandate less skilful.players?
Im not knocking it,but what your trying to convince yourself is skilful,is in reality a paper over for lack of skills......playing down players not being able to pick up ball running is hilarious,its one of simplist skills, and would think anyone who cant,shouldnt be getting gametime tbh
Theres something like 98 different skills/strikes,how many,if any of intercounty player who played last sunday can master half of em,?0
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