Girls and OnlyFans

SnuggyBear

If you say bookies are preying on people with gambling addictions you can also say OF preys on lonely men.

KyussB

Deleted User wrote: »

Let's get specific here. When you say sex workers, are you including those involved in prostitution/escorting... or simply referring to those who enact sexual behavior online ie, porn?

As for more respect being generated, how would that happen, since there has been no campaign to change the perception of society towards this behavior? Instead, any change would happen through the eyes of those who purchase the services... and their opinions are likely not to represent mainstream society.



As for the main negative, I think you need to expand your thinking by a rather large margin, to include those who view and interact with these sex workers....

As for a moral panic... that's pure drama. However, those of us who are concerned with a wide range of changes in society, not only OF. It's easy to dismiss such concerns when you only focus on one individual change, and ignore everything else that is connected.



Not a point I made. I referred to the perspectives of those who engage in abuse, harassment, or sexual assault. Not the victims.



Huh? I think I've shown that I'm trying to understand your pov in a reasonable manner, but that paragraph just didn't make much logical sense.



Only if you feel that being gay was a choice, and part of being a profession... Which it isn't.

Society discriminates against all manner of behaviors which are deemed to be negative for society.... sex workers fall into that category, because the boundaries of sexual behavior are broken. Previously the focus was on marriage being important (thereby regulating sex), but that's been decided to be too old-fashioned and unsuitable for people to be bound by. Without the boundaries that society places on us, the people who commit abuse/assault/etc are given more freedom to engage their views. The boundaries in society were not to limit the expression of people, it was to limit the negative aspects of human behavior... by removing those boundaries, you will see an increase of such negative behavior, because deviancy becomes acceptable. You can't pick and choose what consequences arise...

I don't lump all sex work together - I think OF stuff is far less controversial than many other types of sex work - and that normalization of OF stuff will indirectly lead to greater respect for other sex workers as well.

OF type work is already legal, and it's only going to grow and become more normalized. There are many campaigns among sex workers in general, for better recognition and treatment - it will continue making progress like many other social movement from the past decades.

Skipping over some points - societal/professional discrimination with outing of OF work is a valid comparison to societal/professional discrimination with outing of gay people - the issue of 'choice' just begs the question (assumes the point) that OF work is wrong, which I obivously don't agree with - and I've also disagreed about the level of choice involved, due to involuntary unemployment.

guy2231

SnuggyBear wrote: »

If you say bookies are preying on people with gambling addictions you can also say OF preys on lonely men.

It's true the women on OF largely prey on lonely men giving them false feelings of emotional attachment to keep getting more and more money from them.

KyussB

Deleted User wrote: »

A person on OF is manipulating their audience, since they're seeking returning viewers, as they pay the most over time. And they're seeking to manipulate those interests and vulnerabilities that their viewers have...



I listed a variety of factors, and you chose one to focus on... and religious morals would actually be a pretty high standard compared to modern thinking. I'm not even remotely religious myself, and even I can see that.



Twist much? You really need to repeat, at every opportunity, the view that they're victims. They lost their jobs. Whooptie do. We've all been there. As I said there are plenty of other options out there, both online and offline, other than sex work. You have still to prove how they've had no option except to turn to this kind of work....



I take it you haven't read much about just how much money many of these viewers have spent on their girls? Addiction and compulsion comes in many forms... and those on OF have a direct connection with their viewers, as opposed to the mass advertising of the gambling industry.

I'm getting the feeling that you're skimming over my responses, looking for things to reply to, and ignoring anything that doesn't fit... because you've passed over a lot of points, just so you can repeat your own views again.

I mean, OF customers know what they're there for, right? How can they be manipulated?

Advertising/marketing/business-lobbying departments manipulate people to a far more insidious level - which easily makes many of those roles more morally questionable than OF work.

You think religious morals are a high standard? Seriously? I've (thankfully) never had to bother debating how shittily the average religion views women in general for one - but do I really have to do this now, on an Irish forum, after all the shit the church as done to this country?

Again - high unemployment is a zero sum game, and collectively it is not true that there are more job options - collectively there is only competition for a limited pool of jobs, and there is involuntary unemployment.

You're basically talking about porn addiction - which is viewed as pseudo-science.

KyussB

SnuggyBear wrote: »

If you say bookies are preying on people with gambling addictions you can also say OF preys on lonely men.

Bookies ruin lives through preying on gambling addictions, and it's fundamental to their business - they actively seek such people out and keep them coming back.

There's no such thing as porn addiction (which would have been the closest analogous thing to gambling addiction) - and given the prevalence/ubiquitousness of porn through society, I doubt there's anything special about OF that would limit it to men who have such severe problems that their custom amounts to them being exploited.

The few men who do have such problems though, I'd view that as a societal problem with circumstances that lead to loneliness, not a problem with OF.

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

Bookies ruin lives through preying on gambling addictions, and it's fundamental to their business - they actively seek such people out and keep them coming back.

There's no such thing as porn addiction (which would have been the closest analogous thing to gambling addiction) - and given the prevalence/ubiquitousness of porn through society, I doubt there's anything special about OF that would limit it to men who have such severe problems that their custom amounts to them being exploited.

The few men who do have such problems though, I'd view that as a societal problem with circumstances that lead to loneliness, not a problem with OF.

You'd prefer your daughter would masturbate to strangers for a fiver than work for Paddy power?

Amazing.

I hope you aren't a parent.

One eyed Jack

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Let's get specific here. When you say sex workers, are you including those involved in prostitution/escorting... or simply referring to those who enact sexual behavior online ie, porn?

As for more respect being generated, how would that happen, since there has been no campaign to change the perception of society towards this behavior? Instead, any change would happen through the eyes of those who purchase the services... and their opinions are likely not to represent mainstream society.

…

Only if you feel that being gay was a choice, and part of being a profession... Which it isn't.

Society discriminates against all manner of behaviors which are deemed to be negative for society.... sex workers fall into that category, because the boundaries of sexual behavior are broken. Previously the focus was on marriage being important (thereby regulating sex), but that's been decided to be too old-fashioned and unsuitable for people to be bound by. Without the boundaries that society places on us, the people who commit abuse/assault/etc are given more freedom to engage their views. The boundaries in society were not to limit the expression of people, it was to limit the negative aspects of human behavior... by removing those boundaries, you will see an increase of such negative behavior, because deviancy becomes acceptable. You can't pick and choose what consequences arise...

There actually have been a few campaigns over the last couple of years alright which have invoked the language of social justice in an attempt to frame prostitution as an immutable characteristic of a person and thereby argue for decriminalisation as a human rights issue, Amnesty International being one of the largest organisations behind the attempt to reframe prostitution as ‘sex work’ and prostitutes as ‘sex workers’ in an attempt to legitimise their arguments in favour of decriminalisation of prostitution.

As you point out though, in countries where prostitution has been decriminalised for decades, it hasn’t had any effect on the perception of prostitution or prostitutes in any given society. It hasn’t led to increased respect for prostitution or prostitutes, it’s simply increased demand, and legislation which was intended to prevent exploitation of people in the industry has largely been ineffective. In Germany for example, of the estimated 400,000 people engaged in prostitution, only a handful are actually registered, and they have considerable issues with attempts to regulate human trafficking in the industry, as well as in the current economic climate the fact that many people working in prostitution are now unemployed -


Germany: Prostitute protection laws proving impotent

German lawmakers call for buying sex to be made permanently illegal


Sites like OnlyFans aren’t the only avenues for online prostitution, they’re just one of the more popular ones with one million creators (and again only a handful of them producing sexual content aimed at adults), but contrary to the narrative of these sites empowering plucky young entrepreneurial women, the reality doesn’t be long setting in that OnlyFans fans are not quite the gift that keeps on giving, or giving people who are unemployed back their dignity or any of the rest of it. It’s becoming more and more apparent that online prostitution isn’t any safer than physical prostitution for the people who choose to engage in it thinking that it’s a viable means to provide for themselves or their families -


Jobless, selling nudes online and still struggling


There’s nothing ‘empowering’ about the sex work on OnlyFans


As you suggested already, there are numerous ways one can become an entrepreneur by upskilling and availing of numerous opportunities which are already provided for them to do so, in legitimate employment contributing to society and being a positive role model for their families and people who look up to them, who’s opportunities in life aren’t limited by economic uncertainty or poor decisions they made when they were younger which leave them far more exposed online than they ever intended, but were unfortunately naive and bought into the hype and fantasy world portrayed online of so and so apparently earning easy money just for getting their kit off. Competing for attention online is a rough business which will inevitably take its toll on a persons mental and physical health as they begin to realise the novelty of online exposure and their five minutes of fame isn't all it's cracked up to be and can severely limit their opportunities in their future.

notAMember

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You'd prefer your daughter would masturbate to strangers for a fiver than work for Paddy power?

Amazing.

I hope you aren't a parent.

Is that what OF is? Just women masturbating on video? Or is that a bit reductionist? There are also musicians, artists etc.

Too be honest, OF has all the problems that come with monetising the human body. Cosmetic surgery, pimps , exploitation. But, it is more in control of the content makers. So, a step in the right direction, away from degradation?

Time will tell maybe.

KyussB

KyussB wrote: »

Skipping over some points - societal/professional discrimination with outing of OF work is a valid comparison to societal/professional discrimination with outing of gay people - the issue of 'choice' just begs the question (assumes the point) that OF work is wrong, which I obivously don't agree with - and I've also disagreed about the level of choice involved, due to involuntary unemployment.

I'm finished responding to you because you're not taking into account anything I've said.

There's no point discussing this with you because it's entirely one-sided, regardless of how much I write.

notAMember

notAMember wrote: »

Is that what OF is? Just women masturbating on video? Or is that a bit reductionist? There are also musicians, artists etc.

The focus of this thread has been consistently focused on the sexual content released on OF.

Too be honest, OF has all the problems that come with monetising the human body. Cosmetic surgery, pimps , exploitation. But, it is more in control of the content makers. So, a step in the right direction, away from degradation?

However, if you look at YouTube which has very strong rules against sexual content, you'll find that over the last few years, they've been allowing a rake of sexual content, from Naked yoga to clips of porn on the site.. because popularity for a platform wanes, and it's still a business.

Dunno about the tack that there's degradation involved, since the people involved are likely to be doing all this out of free will.

YellowLead

KyussB wrote: »

The JG is directly designed for supporting capitalist market economies, and is already entering the mainstream in the US. It's not for this thread - other than with one implemented, it removes the situation of people being pushed into work like on OF, due to pressures from involuntary unemployment.

And of course there won’t be OF content creators in the US...

mcsean2163

LMHC wrote: »

Really. Blokes having a tug to ur birds bits

**** gonna ****, who cares.

I'd be more worried about your possessiveness. You don't own a partner and if they're attractive how can you stop the **** and why would you even care?

The important thing is that you love the person you're with and if you don't why are you with them?

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Let's stay on topic, please. I've removed some posts to this effect.

YellowLead

mcsean2163 wrote: »

**** gonna ****, who cares.

I'd be more worried about your possessiveness. You don't own a partner and if they're attractive how can you stop the **** and why would you even care?

How could somebody not care if their other half was doing exactly what kind of masturbating etc that was specifically requested by another person and that half the town can have a look/laugh at?

Each to their own of course, but those who would have their wife or serious girlfriend at this seem to be in the minority not the other way around.

KyussB

notAMember wrote: »

Is that what OF is? Just women masturbating on video? Or is that a bit reductionist? There are also musicians, artists etc.

Too be honest, OF has all the problems that come with monetising the human body. Cosmetic surgery, pimps , exploitation. But, it is more in control of the content makers. So, a step in the right direction, away from degradation?

Time will tell maybe.

If that other type of stuff is on it as well, then ya it's a bit reductionist.

I'd disagree about it having all of the same problems as other sex work - it gets conflated with sex work that involves physical contact with customers, when it doesn't - and because it's in control of content makers, it doesn't have pimps, and the exploitation more reflects exploitation people face in many regular forms of work.

OF has problems of course - someone said earlier it takes 17% of peoples pay, which is pretty extortionate, and it has a lot of the other problems of 'platforms' in general - and people face discrimination for having been on it (more of a societal problem, though).

mcsean2163

YellowLead wrote: »

How could somebody not care if their other half was doing exactly what kind of masturbating etc that was specifically requested by another person and that half the town can have a look/laugh at?

Each to their own of course, but those who would have their wife or serious girlfriend at this seem to be in the minority not the other way around.

Couldn't care less about the the town. People who only care about what others think of them need to get a grip.

The important thing in life is to help others and develop yourself. Who knows what OF may be facilitating the performers. Not everybody wants to be a computer programmer and the alternative is often really badly paid.

If you had the choice of OF and a enough money to buy a home or ****ty pay and a lifetime of rent? TBH, I'd not fancy doing OF at all but I've still got options and TBH nobody would pay to see me on OF I'm sure. I'd say they'd pay not to see me!

YellowLead

mcsean2163 wrote: »

.

The important thing in life is to help others and develop yourself. Who knows what OF may be facilitating the performers. Not everybody wants to be a computer programmer and the alternative is often really badly paid.
!

This makes no sense. Somebody leaves school and thinks ‘I don’t fancy being a programmer (albeit let’s face it, more than likely doesn’t have the brains for it) ...hmmm my only option is OF. Of course
Jobs outside of programming are badly paid. Well you need to announce this to all school goers and tell them not to bother with third level of its non a computer science degree!!!

Oh and also that it’s only fans and buy a house or any other job and rent forever.
‘If you had the choice of OF and a enough money to buy a home or ****ty pay and a lifetime of rent‘

I think without saying it what you are implying are the types of people making content are indeed the workshy lazy types.

BorneTobyWilde

Its becoming so mainstream that it's influencing kids growing up. I see that in own family, niece 14 impossible to get to school, my sister asked, ''what are you doing to do if you don't go to school'' and within a split second it was '' onlyfans!!!''
Then you have radio station in the middle of the day inviting on 18 years olds to discuss how they make so much money, with the host cheering them on, same with Claire Byrne basically promoting Matty boring as a bag of rocks Gilbert , who was on 50k a month, but after that appearance it's now 125k a month.
You really shouldn't be promoting it, especially on day time radio FFS.

https://youtu.be/5BXALFRMpCw

Mister Vain

God you know its an old chat show when you see people shmoking on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BXALFRMpCw

Quantum Erasure

notAMember wrote: »

Is that what OF is? Just women masturbating on video? Or is that a bit reductionist? There are also musicians, artists etc.

Too be honest, OF has all the problems that come with monetising the human body. Cosmetic surgery, pimps , exploitation. But, it is more in control of the content makers. So, a step in the right direction, away from degradation?

Time will tell maybe.

Degradation is where the good money is

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

....
You really shouldn't be promoting it, especially on day time radio FFS.

You cant see tits on the radio...

Quantum Erasure

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

You cant see tits on the radio...

But you can hear them...

Tubridy springs to mind

ArtyM

Mister Vain wrote: »

God you know its an old chat show when you see people shmoking on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BXALFRMpCw

Its such a shame the modern chat show has become a watered down event.
It was nice to watch some actual discussion in that clip, without someone flogging a DVD or upcoming movie.

ArtyM

ArtyM wrote: »

Its such a shame the modern chat show has become a watered down event.
It was nice to watch some actual discussion in that clip, without someone flogging a DVD or upcoming movie.

It really is a joy isn't it?..
Intelligent people being civil to each other having a discussion..
What has been lost in the intervening period?..

guy2231

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

Degradation is where the good money is



You cant see tits on the radio...

Degradation is where the good/easy money is for women, for boys it is selling coke and cannabis.

YellowLead

guy2231 wrote: »

Degradation is where the good/easy money is for women, for boys it is selling coke and cannabis.

Good point

Ms. Newbie18

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Its becoming so mainstream that it's influencing kids growing up. I see that in own family, niece 14 impossible to get to school, my sister asked, ''what are you doing to do if you don't go to school'' and within a split second it was '' onlyfans!!!''
Then you have radio station in the middle of the day inviting on 18 years olds to discuss how they make so much money, with the host cheering them on, same with Claire Byrne basically promoting Matty boring as a bag of rocks Gilbert , who was on 50k a month, but after that appearance it's now 125k a month.
You really shouldn't be promoting it, especially on day time radio FFS.

I hear this way to often only replace onlyfans with Instagramer or YouTuber...

TomTomTim

Deleted User wrote: »

It really is a joy isn't it?..
Intelligent people being civil to each other having a discussion..
What has been lost in the intervening period?..

A slow or fast, defending on how you look at it, transition away from debate even being displayed in main stream avenues. This has led to only one side getting their views aired, which means that many people have not been normalized to back and forth debate, which has resulted in great ideological intolerance.

TomTomTim

Anyway. What happened to objectification? It was all the rage with feminists a few years ago, yet now many of them support female objectification, once the females get paid for it. It's all so confusing.

TomTomTim

TomTomTim wrote: »

Anyway. What happened to objectification? It was all the rage with feminists a few years ago, yet now many of them support female objectification, once the females get paid for it. It's all so confusing.

Double standards are the most popular fashion item for feminists, and activists.

You can see them applying double standards to just about everything these days, because it allows them to preach about female empowerment, while also complaining about unrealistic expectations of beauty from men (never mind that it's women, as much as anyone, who are pushing the overall movement of beauty in society)