Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948272#Comment_121948272

Please stop.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948110#Comment_121948110

But the problem is these private entities need those same resources. So if councils and state agencies are directly building houses then the private firms will be slowed down and output will be reduced.

Also, I don't think apartment complexes are stolen from developers. I'm pretty sure they are paid for.

You are right that it can't just be social housing. The solution is to increase overall production of housing units across all sectors, a complex long-term task. And of course, you have the objectors and those who stand to lose if the housing problem is solved putting a spanner in the works whenever they can.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948059#Comment_121948059

There are 2,646 churches in Ireland. A small minority of them (like the major cathedrals) have historical and architectural significance like Newgrange and should be preserved, absolutely. But the vast majority have about as much cultural importance as a local community hall.

Mass attendance, and the number of priests in Ireland, have both been on a continual decline for decades because the Catholic church is dying in Ireland. At some point in the near future the use of prime land in the center of communities for large, empty, unused, buildings will have to be reassessed.

If there was a hockey stadium on a large plot of land in the center of a town, that was only ever 10% full, that very few people from the town attended, and was rarely in use, would you object to it being put to better use? Because its the same broad problem facing churches in years to come - underutilized prime land at a time of housing scarcity.

80% odd of churches will likely be repurposed to better use for the people and communities who actually live near them. Purpose built senior housing as suggested above would be one of the better uses of the land.

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949149#Comment_121949149

Yes go after property that is currently used rather than the many buildings sitting idle and falling into disrepair.

Our church has a community centre that operates as a creche Monday to Friday conveniently located beside the primary school with 600+ students. and a senior citizens home which unfortunately has been sold into the private sector

Roberto_gas

There are vast empty lands ffs..where did church come into the mix on this thread

herbalplants

• Friend of mine bought this 2 bedrooms house not in great condition really old needs all done including electrical but she is adding extra 2 bedrooms downstairs. So she got a builder to do all this work for 115 k. Out of 115k 13k is Vat only. So basically all this work for 101k. May I add this is in Dublin. So the whole house renovated upstairs and downstairs and add extra 2 bedrooms and one bathroom all in 100k. All included electrical, plumbing, treating floorboards, fitting kitchen, bathrooms.
• I am scratching my head here as not sure how is this possible.
• Also may I add she doesn't have a big garden so in this small garden plus what is downstairs (not a big house!!) he manages 2 more bedrooms and one bathroom.
• He also promised to deliver the whole project in less than 2 months! One payment on 3rd of April and next payment in 2 weeks but promised he has 70% done by second payment.
• Is there something I am missing or does it sound too good to be true? If this is true, this means Builders are not up to their eyeballs in work and prices have gone down.
• 
  

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948487#Comment_121948487

Not slowed down if councils employ their own builders and construction teams, therefore increasing the size of the construction imdustry.

If they cant do that due to staff shortages, then fewer private developments will get built, bit at least the public know they will be delivered to the private market.

Better 1000 private apartments are built and delivered to the private market than 1500 apparently private apartments are buit and 500 - 800 goto the social at the last minute when they near completion.

Some complexes are not bought by the council. They are only rented & so still belong to the developer.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949149#Comment_121949149

We do see some religious lands being sold off for housing in Dublin. Its amazing how much land the religious orders actually have!

The Ardstone development at Milltown Park in Milltown/Ranelagh is a prime example. Though the local residents keep objecting to this...is it going ahead now?

There cant be a better location in the city for new apartments for professionals, yet the locals complain they will disturb the bats or overpopulate the Luas etc.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949481#Comment_121949481

Someone with a chip about the church.

Take a look at Google maps and you'll see plenty of vacant lots in Dublin City centre. They're empty for decades. There's a half acre on Abbey street alone with nothing on it.

There are also plenty of vacant buildings falling down around the capital.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950518#Comment_121950518

Username checks out.

Another user rightly pointed out the massive drop off in priest numbers and mass attendances.

All lands and buildings that are underused should be closely looked at by the Land Development Agency, with a view to putting them to better use and building badly needed accommodation.

Tolka Park would be another great example. The majority of that stadium is derelict, the location is amazing. Dalymount Park could easily serve Bohs and Shels as a groundshare. But somebody will be along to say it can't be done because of history or some other nonsense.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950656#Comment_121950656

There's plenty of land with zero buildings and plenty of land owned by the state.

But if you want to destroy churches to build apartments then be my guest. You'd have an easier time building a 15 story in Phoenix Park.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950682#Comment_121950682

I just suggested it's land that exists in every single suburb and town across the country. The most common reason that people don't downsize in Ireland to a smaller house or accommodation is they don't want to leave the area they've been living in for many years. In my area in Dublin5 I don't see many viable options for building purpose accommodation for the elderly.

As you say, it will likely never happen in our lifetime. B

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950682#Comment_121950682

While it would be near impossible politically to target under-used churches for redevelopment; I'd be very surprised if we don't see more closing and sold soon.

Bluntly, the dioceses will want to get shift of the 50s-70s thousands capacity churches that exist in suburbia of the cities before they get added to the register of protected structures. They usually have tiny attendances (under 10% of capacity in many cases), are expensive to heat and maintain; and if they get listed, they become extremely difficult to demolish.

Finglas West is only the first, I suspect. But it'll be the religions decisions as to where and what they sell/demolish; not anyone else.

Actually, if someone in the various councils started making strong hints about listing them, that might speed up decisions. So there is a way of pushing it, just a bit dodgily.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950820#Comment_121950820

At some stage the Catholic Church is going to allow priests to marry. Priest numbers would increase if they did.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950876#Comment_121950876

Won't necessarily increase the audience, though. They may also decide to match the early 90s with high Anglicanism and allow women; but with the same result.

They're absolutely chronically short of priests to preach in the mega-churches; but they're also rather short of attendees outside of ceremonies.

Anyway, while there will definitely be a few more large sites coming up for sale from this; its about as reliable a source as waiting for/expecting random factories to close down.

Villa05

Man worries about his gravy train drying up.

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/the-low-level-of-legal-proceedings-needs-to-be-clarified-banks-and-vulture-funds-accused-of-giving-homeowners-in-arrears-free-houses/a1692885721.html

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950518#Comment_121950518

The poster you're claiming of "having a chip" made quite a reasonable / logical suggestion that theres a large amount of very underutilised, prime, central, land that could be used for senior housing to keep seniors living in their local communities. The only one responding with emotion has been you.

If you don't think this outcome is likely I'd point you to the fate of Protestant churches in Ireland. We've had hundreds close in the 20th century, due to the exact same factors - prime land and declining attendances. The exact same thing will happen to Catholic churches in the 21st century. Demographics are destiny, they don't care about emotions.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951099#Comment_121951099

If you seriously think that CPOing churches up and down the country for apartment blocksis a realistic solution I have a monorail to sell you

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951114#Comment_121951114

Nobody has suggested anything of that sort, though.

The points made have been that the church land is prime, underutilised land, that would make a useful difference if it was used for housing tomorrow. But also that its politically unlikely to happen for another decade or two, unfortunately. But that it will happen in time, just as it happened to Protestant churches in Ireland for exactly the same demographic/geographic/statistical reasons.

I don't think any of that is too controversial. The sooner the issue starts being talked about the sooner progress can be made on it too.

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951031#Comment_121951031

A leading mortgage arrears campaigner has questioned why banks and vulture funds are not taking action against people who don’t make payments on their home loans.

David Hall, of the Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation, asked whether people who are not paying and not facing repossession proceedings are being given a “free house”.

David Hall questioning why banks are unable to repossess. You really couldn't make this stuff up.

Perhaps he's finally realised the damage he's caused.

“At the moment, borrowers in arrears don’t have to engage because there is no threat – that needs to change,” he said.

He has played a bigger role than most in removing that threat.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951099#Comment_121951099

There's no emotion here, I'm saying there are way easier ways to get the job done. There's probably a hundred acres of waste ground in DCC, and a thousand derelict buildings.
The fact it's even suggested hints there's something else going on, especially the reference to the redress scheme.

Why knock down a church when thousands of single-story brick terraces are within walking distance from O'Connell St?

The RCC has knocked it's own churches, the one in Finglas comes to mind, but I don't see the government CPOing church land.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951223#Comment_121951223

At a more basic level is the availability of land actually that much (in relative terms) of a limiting factor?

Donald Trump

I don't get the sidetrack about the churches. With all the greenfield and brownfield and derelict sites about the place. Seems a random scapegoat.

Far better to be taking action against the likes of

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3470768,-6.2519303,3a,75y,94.37h,107.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUxoVSSYQtpNP57dNwHozNg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Than the much smaller church around the corner (which does look nice at least!)

And that place must be like that for the past 20+ years at least. And it's not just the building - it is a big site. It is being used as a surface carpark (That said, I think there are relatively recent plans to put a metro related station close to there ………. but that is only very recent)

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950820#Comment_121950820

This Is totally outside the Irish Property discussion thread. It should be taken else where.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951099#Comment_121951099

Basically what the the chip on the shoulder orginally posted is BS. The percentage of land taken up by churches, is insignificant anywhere in the country compared to other vacant and underused property.

As for Protestant churches, there is one near me that is only used for an odd funeral or a service every 2-3 months.

As I posted elsewhere if this was proposed about an Islamic or Jewish place of worship it would not be tolerated

Roberto_gas

So when do people think the crash will come ? Have been waiting for 6 years now. Properties crashed a bit in US, slowed down in UK but no respite in Ireland

JohnnyChimpo

Literally nobody knows, but unlikely in the next couple of years (barring pandemic-level global disruption). I wouldn't suggest holding your breath or otherwise putting anything in your life on hold waiting for it to happen

Padre_Pio

Why should there be a crash?

There was no real crash in the US or UK, there was affordability issues since interest rates spiked. People are still paying more for houses in both those countries, unless you're a cash buyer.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952181#Comment_121952181

Look back through this thread, there have been a few who predict it every year, someday they will be right and they will be saying “told ya so”.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951301#Comment_121951301

There aren't hundreds of acres of waste ground in prime town center locations around the country, though. That was the original posters point - that church land in town centers would be ideally suited for purpose built elder living locations, in the center of their communities.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951817#Comment_121951817

Discussing the building of much needed housing on currently underutilised land is a pretty core part of the Irish property discussion thread, I would think. A core belief expressed in this thread repeatedly is the Irish state is woefully bad at long term planning, and/or at engaging in innovative solutions for the housing market. Discussing, and planning, for the reuse of church land as it falls into disuse very much falls into something that should be done sooner rather than later.

The town center land taken up by churches is not insignificant. There are almost 3000 churches around the country, most of them in prime locations, on significant parcels of land.

Some Protestant churches remain yes, but the majority closed in the 20th century. Because they suffered from declining attendances, so were no longer viable. The land was better used for other purposes. As is now happening to the Catholic church in the 21st century in the exact same manner.

If we had 3000 odd, town center, mostly dramatically underutilised mosques or synagogues, in Ireland the exact same thing would be happening. Its nothing to do with being "tolerated", demographics are demographics. When a religion is dying its dying. Policy making (in housing especially) needs to be based on real world statistics, not emotions.

Ireland has also had plenty of synagogues closed and the land repurposed over the last century for the exact same reason as the Protestant churches for what its worth, because the number of practitioners has shrunk dramatically.

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952181#Comment_121952181

I don't see it happening unless a major demand-destruction event comes along.