Employers struggling to fill positions with hundreds of thousands unemployed

Dempo1

martingriff wrote: »

Simple way to stop this. If you were working and then put on the PUP but still an employe if you refuse to go back to work (unless a good reason such as underlying health and not got second jab), then taken off the PUP and on to dole. Its not possible put you should be made pay back the PUP as you effect quite your job as you had no idea of going back when your job opened up

I think you might be missing the point, this is actually the current policy re PUP and again, there is ZERO evidence of anything needs to have a stop put to it. Employers moaning like the boy who cried wolf does not equate to the recruitment problem being anything to do with PUP, the two most vocal industries, Hospitality have lost staff to other career's and as explained, if they were so concerned about retaining staff, they had the option of wage subsidy schemes at practically no cost to them, instead, they dropped staff like bad habits and now crying because they disappeared.

Personal care/Salons next, this I'll grant you might be a concern and an enormous black market has been created due to Salon closures, I've absolutely no doubt there are lots who we're in this industry thinking they are much better off doing private work. Unfortunately it's very difficult to investigate a black market.

jimmycrackcorm

There's an upside, Thanks to PUP having people refusing to go back to work, my youngling who finished school last year, just got offered a job.

Dempo1

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There's an upside, Thanks to PUP having people refusing to go back to work, my youngling who finished school last year, just got offered a job.

A bit of tongue and cheek in your post? But delighted for her but again, few if any refusing to return to work.

Shauna677

punisher5112 wrote: »

I know hotels are bringing in staff from abroad.

If they have any sense they will stay away.

Shauna677

The DayDream wrote: »

So sick of all these articles about hoteliers moaning they can't get staff and blaming the PUP.

I've worked in 3 Irish hotels and I would rather live starving in a tent than do it again. Treat you like muck, pay is a joke, expect you to work all the hours available during the busy periods (which happen to be the times you want off to go socialize yourself) and then give you nothing when it's quiet.

If you're Irish you will probably feel like an outsider in most places as the staff (and lots of management) will often be Eastern European. Often they don't bother speaking English unless speaking directly to you. And the Irish ones that manage in them are so used to foreign workers that they can work like a dog, who will never insist that they give proper breaks or rest times between shifts, or be treated decently, that they treat the Irish staff like dirt, too.

Unless they change how they treat workers and how they pay nowhere near a living wage I hope their struggles get even worse.

It is appalling how badly the staff were treated, working for a pittance with no hope of ever getting on the housing ladder, no work benefits like personal pensions or medical insurance. Do employers not grasp that all people deserve a proper living wage, they were not born to be slaves and these employees have decided enough is enough and many gone off to look for better careers and good luck to them all. Covid has shown us how unequal we were as a country and things are going to have to change in one way or another as we go forward.

ineedeuro

Shauna677 wrote: »

It is appalling how badly the staff were treated, working for a pittance with no hope of ever getting on the housing ladder, no work benefits like personal pensions or medical insurance. Do employers not grasp that all people deserve a proper living wage, they were not born to be slaves and these employees have decided enough is enough and many gone off to look for better careers and good luck to them all. Covid has shown us how unequal we were as a country and things are going to have to change in one way or another as we go forward.

It's great to be back in 2002

What could go wrong

ZX7R

I don't think people realise, there has been a mass exodus of foreign labour in the Irish market since last March, I am irish living in Poland and the amount of polish that have returned is amazing.
From listening to friends, family and old work contacts, construction and security have also been impacted by a loss of labour force since last March.

Shauna677

Dempo1 wrote: »

I


Personal care/Salons next, this I'll grant you might be a concern and an enormous black market has been created due to Salon closures, I've absolutely no doubt there are lots who we're in this industry thinking they are much better off doing private work. Unfortunately it's very difficult to investigate a black market.

I think you might be right there, I saw very few people with messy hair over the five months since hair salons closed in December. They were obviously getting it professionally done somewhere and it sure wasn't in the salons.

Shauna677

ineedeuro wrote: »

It's great to be back in 2002

What could go wrong

Many of these people can't even afford to rent their own places, is it any wonder there is a mass exodus of foreign workers leaving the country.

Up here in a hotel in Inishowen. Very obvious that new untrained staff have had to brought in last minute for probably the same reason. Things are a mess. No organisation.

I feel very sorry for the young ones having to learn on the job to a very large volume of customers, that's for sure.

I have a friend in the construction industry reporting the same.

ulster

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There's an upside, Thanks to PUP having people refusing to go back to work, my youngling who finished school last year, just got offered a job.

As a jedi padawan.....

Del2005

Kewreeuss wrote: »

If they want to continue to do business in this country they need to keep their employees in this country, or else set themselves up as an employer in all the countries where they have staff wfh and pay the taxes and social security there. That’s if they want to do business here. Otherwise move out altogether.

They need 1 employee to stay in the country to trade here. So they can move the remaining jobs to countries that are paid way less and still trade here with a single employee, there's plenty of companies in the IFSC already trading this way.

Pauliedragon

It's amazing how all these hospitality operators are saying they can't get staff yet I've over 20 years worth of experience and can't even get an interview after applying day after day let alone a job. They can't be that stuck.

Shoelaces

Worked my last shift in a hotel restaurant on the 23rd. Have worked in hospitality for 9 years. Christmas this year sealed it. Insane hours for little pay in a place that was breaching Covid regulations so they could jam as many in as possible. No problem enforcing the 90 minute rule to ensure maximum table turnover. Im going back to college and I hope that industry burns to the ground.

Wildly Boaring

ZX7R wrote: »

I don't think people realise, there has been a mass exodus of foreign labour in the Irish market since last March, I am irish living in Poland and the amount of polish that have returned is amazing.
From listening to friends, family and old work contacts, construction and security have also been impacted by a loss of labour force since last March.

The main steel fixers and shutters are now Romanian on a lot of Dublin sites.
I spoke to 2 guys in the last month who would enerally have 50 to 100 guys here.
Neither can get more guys to come to Ireland. It's too obvious that we'll just shut construction if covid is an issue again.
Only country in Europe to do so in 2021.

Edit. Like the UK we are forcing hem all into fame self employment with no rights. This can't continue.

Shauna677

Shoelaces wrote: »

Worked my last shift in a hotel restaurant on the 23rd. Have worked in hospitality for 9 years. Christmas this year sealed it. Insane hours for little pay in a place that was breaching Covid regulations so they could jam as many in as possible. No problem enforcing the 90 minute rule to ensure maximum table turnover. Im going back to college and I hope that industry burns to the ground.

The very best of luck to you on your return to education. Onwards and upwards!

enricoh

ZX7R wrote: »

I don't think people realise, there has been a mass exodus of foreign labour in the Irish market since last March, I am irish living in Poland and the amount of polish that have returned is amazing.
From listening to friends, family and old work contacts, construction and security have also been impacted by a loss of labour force since last March.

I get some work done from time to time in a big engineering workshop they'd have 50+ lads there and on sites. The gaffer was stuck for staff and was saying the majority of his good polish lads had gone home in the last year or two.

Poland had picked up and they were sick of paying the increased rents here. It'd be e1500 a month on average now for a 3 bed semi where I am. He said the useless ones had packed in but were staying here for the dole and housing. It's easy to tell him to pay more but he's competing against northern crowds with much lower overheads for jobs.

punisher5112

It's simply a cost savings tactic, cheapest labour they can find and mad hours.

Guy I know is renting out a room, guy only arrived in the country, he has siblings here already and he is doing the crappy jobs in the kitchen for buttons, he is here around 2 weeks, they are calling him in early, staying late, days off getting called in etc.... Now I can't say if he is happy or not going this or is happy to get the extra for more money but by God he is working very hard for buttons.


This I know has gone on years but it's a worrying trend across a lot of sectors where these businesses and business owners are really really doing unbelievably well and making an absolute killing.


If I were young id be very worried especially now more so with these types willing to work for so little but also the housing nonsense and how it's going to be near impossible to get a mortgage.

We got approved in 2019 and I can say I know for a fact if we had of been held up any longer we wouldn't have a hope in hell of getting on it now.....

Plenty of exploitative employers out there. I always think that something changed about us as a nation in the first Celtic Tiger where people including employers went money mad in this country, even at the expense of labour fairness.

punisher5112

enricoh wrote: »

I get some work done from time to time in a big engineering workshop they'd have 50+ lads there and on sites. The gaffer was stuck for staff and was saying the majority of his good polish lads had gone home in the last year or two.

Poland had picked up and they were sick of paying the increased rents here. It'd be e1500 a month on average now for a 3 bed semi where I am. He said the useless ones had packed in but were staying here for the dole and housing. It's easy to tell him to pay more but he's competing against northern crowds with much lower overheads for jobs.

The smart ones rent in multiple occupancy dwellings or rent a room etc....

This is another issue, some will never go back, or will never work again and would be more then happy to stay on the dole or disability etc as it's still better off then what they'd be on at home....


I've absolutely no issues whatsoever people coming to work, sure the Irish have had no choice but to leave too to get work so it works both ways but the big problems I have is those not willing to work.

punisher5112

Rose Colossal Sprinter wrote: »

Plenty of exploitative employers out there. I always think that something changed about us as a nation in the first Celtic Tiger where people including employers went money mad in this country, even at the expense of labour fairness.

The boom where lads were getting paid so much even as a labourer they didn't know what to do with the cash.....


Knew many in the motor trade and jaysus the money car sales people were getting was insane and kickback from insurance/finance company etc.... Knew of a few that were so greedy they were on the take too, some on the dole, others clearing 3 to 4k and still stroking...

LillySV

enricoh wrote: »

I get some work done from time to time in a big engineering workshop they'd have 50+ lads there and on sites. The gaffer was stuck for staff and was saying the majority of his good polish lads had gone home in the last year or two.

Poland had picked up and they were sick of paying the increased rents here. It'd be e1500 a month on average now for a 3 bed semi where I am. He said the useless ones had packed in but were staying here for the dole and housing. It's easy to tell him to pay more but he's competing against northern crowds with much lower overheads for jobs.

No a good lot of them gone back over there on pup getting 350 a week... there’s no proper checks on the payment since March 20 so they happy there on a payment higher than what professionals would get working there

ypres5

Rose Colossal Sprinter wrote: »

Plenty of exploitative employers out there. I always think that something changed about us as a nation in the first Celtic Tiger where people including employers went money mad in this country, even at the expense of labour fairness.

I do think that in terms of exploitation, pressure and overall disposability of employees Ireland is a lot more like america than it'd care to admit

Dempo1

Pauliedragon wrote: »

It's amazing how all these hospitality operators are saying they can't get staff yet I've over 20 years worth of experience and can't even get an interview after applying day after day let alone a job. They can't be that stuck.

It's your 20 years experience and reasonable expectations that scares them Pauline, they much rather hire inexperienced, cheaper staff and blame PUP for all their woes.

Banana Republic 1

Idbatterim wrote: »

Employers struggling to fill many positions with hundreds of thousands unemployed. E350 a week for many to sit on their ass or work for slightly more, if full time on minimum wage... More genius from FG, who could have foreseen such issues? Any way, take the system for all its worth lads, if you are on PUP, you have at least worked and it wont last forever. There are tens of thousands here, who live off you and I from cradle to grave! luxury apartments, medical card, welfare bonuses, few hundred euro a week cash etc... the more you take, the less that is wasted on wasters! remember that!

there needs to be a proper pay related social insurance scheme introduced, time limited, based on what you paid in and possibly, that you start paying some of it back, when re-employed...

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/you-cant-blame-them-for-taking-other-jobs-hope-of-long-retail-hours-under-threat-as-employers-struggle-to-recruit-staff-40400535.html

I think the days of people being paid a-pittance to work are numbered. Living wage needs to brought in and leave the shops and restaurants go to hell if they don’t like it.

RandomViewer

ZX7R wrote: »

I don't think people realise, there has been a mass exodus of foreign labour in the Irish market since last March, I am irish living in Poland and the amount of polish that have returned is amazing.
From listening to friends, family and old work contacts, construction and security have also been impacted by a loss of labour force since last March.

Have been seeing it the last few weeks, they've either bought or built a house /apartment in Eastern Europe and wages have improved with lower living costs,

Dempo1

LillySV wrote: »

No a good lot of them gone back over there on pup getting 350 a week... there’s no proper checks on the payment since March 20 so they happy there on a payment higher than what professionals would get working there

Why do you assume A, they are getting PUP and B. €350? It's far more likely if they were in hospitality that they were getting far less. Rest assured checks we're and are being done, just last week 1000"s of calls went out directly to PUP recepients along with eligibility checks. Its also speculative to assume foreign nationals have left the country and still claiming PUP. I'm not doubting some abuses but certainly nothing like what some might think

enricoh

Dempo1 wrote: »

Why do you assume A, they are getting PUP and B. €350? It's far more likely if they were in hospitality that they were getting far less. Rest assured checks we're and are being done, just last week 1000"s of calls went out directly to PUP recepients along with eligibility checks. Its also speculative to assume foreign nationals have left the country and still claiming PUP. I'm not doubting some abuses but certainly nothing like what some might think

The pup payment is being abused left , right and centre. Some dough leaving the country weekly.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/supermacs-ceo-calls-for-claimants-in-personal-injury-cases-to-be-named-and-shamed-1202578

Echoing comments he made in 2020 about some of the negative impacts of the Pandemic Unemployment Payment on businesses, Mr McDonagh said the subsidy "was an issue last year and is still one now."

According to him, "up to 40,000 claimants" are living abroad at the moment and still receiving the PUP.

franciscanpunk

If covid was a few years ago and not 2019 i probably would have found myself been on the PUP at the highest rate but my gross pay if working would have been only 5-10% higher than the PUP. Why would i want to go back to work for such a tiny imcremental value? I know i would have ignored my employer as long as i could have not to go back!

for anyone who thinks that fine until the PUP scheme stops, what are you going to do then...well then just get another job, people in these areas are already being paid almost the minimum, another job cant be much worse!

especially in the bar trade, having to deal with drunks and angry customers who will be whining about early closing times, being outside in the cold, the max table sizes, time limits, i think its a wonder they managed to get anyone back at all.

I think the PUP may need to be closed on a sectoral basis going forward for this to work out but its a political minefield

LillySV

Dempo1 wrote: »

Why do you assume A, they are getting PUP and B. €350? It's far more likely if they were in hospitality that they were getting far less. Rest assured checks we're and are being done, just last week 1000"s of calls went out directly to PUP recepients along with eligibility checks. Its also speculative to assume foreign nationals have left the country and still claiming PUP. I'm not doubting some abuses but certainly nothing like what some might think

Absolutely no way they can check if pup recipient in Ireland or abroad ... as regards checks .. none ... your pc govt told dept social protection workers that nothing was to be done to anyone who doesnt respond or answer letters or calls etc ... total ****in bull**** waste of their time .... and as regards foreign workers claiming pup.. of course they did ... they work mostly in the industries affected ... and obvious as hell there’s a huge amount of em gone home

mcko

Never knew a business that pays well struggle for staff.

jimmycrackcorm

mcko wrote:

Never knew a business that pays well struggle for staff.

The world doesn't work having everyone paid the same as a neurosurgeon is.

Dempo1

enricoh wrote: »

The pup payment is being abused left , right and centre. Some dough leaving the country weekly.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/supermacs-ceo-calls-for-claimants-in-personal-injury-cases-to-be-named-and-shamed-1202578

Echoing comments he made in 2020 about some of the negative impacts of the Pandemic Unemployment Payment on businesses, Mr McDonagh said the subsidy "was an issue last year and is still one now."

According to him, "up to 40,000 claimants" are living abroad at the moment and still receiving the PUP.

O dear God, Pat Mc Donagh are you serious, the Bastion of how to Treat employee's, expert in zero hour contracts a dillusional individual that seems to stay up all night watching CCTV footage of his customers and presumably his staff. If this clown could hear himself talk he'd shut up and actually he's been relatively quite since making a fool of himself and garnering little of no support for his absurd statements on the past.

It was he who led the charge smearing PUP recepients but this odious individual didn't wait until the Pandemic eased, he started his codswallop a year ago and barely into the pandemic, infact last summer. He soon shut up when he was proven completely wrong and his premises closed for indoor dining again & again.

He too let 100"s of staff go rather than availing of wage subsidy schemes and I've no doubt he's now reaping the reward with his hotels reopening.

Mother of God, of all examples to use, Pat Mc Donagh???

Albeit he's been strangely quite since Christmas, I wonder why? Horrid individual

Wanderer78

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

The world doesn't work having everyone paid the same as a neurosurgeon is.

Most don't require a neurosurgeons income to live, but pup payments have clearly shown the dole isn't enough to live on, and many aren't also paid enough, baring in mind, a significant amount of pup money has gone straight back into the economy, keeping businesses open, and people in jobs, so........

Banana Republic 1

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The world doesn't work having everyone paid the same as a neurosurgeon is.

Stupid statement

Dempo1

LillySV wrote: »

Absolutely no way they can check if pup recipient in Ireland or abroad ... as regards checks .. none ... your pc govt told dept social protection workers that nothing was to be done to anyone who doesnt respond or answer letters or calls etc ... total ****in bull**** waste of their time .... and as regards foreign workers claiming pup.. of course they did ... they work mostly in the industries affected ... and obvious as hell there’s a huge amount of em gone home

Your determination to smear is palpable and embarrassing.

Not only phone calls made, letters continously sent, Log in locations to mywelfare accounts (IP addresses etc), visits to addresses, cross referencing with Revenue and indeed work place visits by SW inspectors. I've clearly said there have and will be abuses but you fail to understand 10"s of thousands of claims suspended, closed and surely you've seen numerous arrests and criminal charges which have been well publicised.

This emergency payment was brought in literally over night, of course it was open to abuse and I might add not the only abuse/frauds that have occurred during this pandemic. Over 800k availed of the PUP scheme at some stage but you paint a picture of rampant fraud, this is factually incorrect.

Banana Republic 1

enricoh wrote: »

The pup payment is being abused left , right and centre. Some dough leaving the country weekly.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/supermacs-ceo-calls-for-claimants-in-personal-injury-cases-to-be-named-and-shamed-1202578

Echoing comments he made in 2020 about some of the negative impacts of the Pandemic Unemployment Payment on businesses, Mr McDonagh said the subsidy "was an issue last year and is still one now."

According to him, "up to 40,000 claimants" are living abroad at the moment and still receiving the PUP.

He is spewing because he can’t find people who have no choice but to work long hours for a pittance.

Dempo1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

He is spewing because he can’t find people who have no choice but to work long hours for a pittance.

That F****** started this PUP smearing at the start, middle and later part of pandemic, he's gone all quite when his embarrassing comments we're proven to not just absurd but insensitive, even his close political buddies ran a mile. A G*****S***** of the lowest order

mcko

Never said that, pay good wages you will never struggle to get staff, zero hour contracts and min wage are not the way to go.

Dempo1

franciscanpunk wrote: »

If covid was a few years ago and not 2019 i probably would have found myself been on the PUP at the highest rate but my gross pay if working would have been only 5-10% higher than the PUP. Why would i want to go back to work for such a tiny imcremental value? I know i would have ignored my employer as long as i could have not to go back!

for anyone who thinks that fine until the PUP scheme stops, what are you going to do then...well then just get another job, people in these areas are already being paid almost the minimum, another job cant be much worse!

especially in the bar trade, having to deal with drunks and angry customers who will be whining about early closing times, being outside in the cold, the max table sizes, time limits, i think its a wonder they managed to get anyone back at all.

I think the PUP may need to be closed on a sectoral basis going forward for this to work out but its a political minefield

Just a point on sectoral basis, yes a minefield but not just political.

There are 100"s and maybe more businesses in sector's now open still closed, there's also alot of cross over in sectors, for example I know account managers in communications who's entire accounts are in Aviation sector (not much going on there). I know business owners in children's activity/play areas within shopping centres still closed etc etc. Its a very complex thing. Important to also state PUP is ending, tappering starting in September and by November the majority left on it will be getting the same as JSA €203 PW.

My concern is the fact 1000"s of business will open, reap whatever pent up demand that might be there and come autumn close fully when the harsh reality of Landlords knocking on doors and any remaining business supports end. There is serious rental Debt owed, this not going away and whilst Business supports were welcome and needed, they have in essence created a false economy. Basically compliant (tax) businesses had up to 50% of their fixed cost covered by various grants throughout this. Giving a Bar or restaurant literally thousands of euros to create outdoor spaces will not I'm afraid save many of these businesses.

One very telling observation I've made is the financial supports afforded to businesses (all welcome) not a whisper of critical commentary about this and yet the viciousness and smearing levelled at employee's who got support is extraordinary. What was that catchy phrase again "We're all in this Together '

When PUP disappears there won't be an issue finding staff.

If anything, it'll be the opposite problem..

Dempo1

6 wrote: »

When PUP disappears there won't be an issue finding staff.

If anything, it'll be the opposite problem..

Wishful thinking perhaps, the very businesses moaning are in reality not going to survive that long. Any successful business that sensibly retained their staff or at least showed some decency and support has by far a better chance of survival. In the hospitality sector its often been shown the most successful have the same staff for years, those with high staff turnover (the moaners) will learn a very harsh lesson before this is all over.

zerosugarbuzz

sugarman wrote: »

Because there's never been a pandemic unemployment payment to qualify for.

€350 per week is not paid well, it’s not even minimum wage lol.

is_that_so

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

€350 per week is not paid well, it’s not even minimum wage lol.

With no transport nor any other associated employment costs it's a tidy enough sum for some and may well suit them for a few months. It's also €600 more a month than standard unemployment payments and people think it's tax free.

Dempo1

is_that_so wrote: »

With no transport nor any other associated employment costs it's a tidy enough sum for some and may well suit them for a few months. It's also €600 more a month than standard unemployment payments and people think it's tax free.

People need to get this notion of €350 pw out of their heads. 47% of recepients get this amount and by now much less, this was paid to highest earners. Most people on PUP still are getting €300, €250 or €203.

Whilst I agree there's a percentage of recepients who may have benifted from less transport costs etc, the cost of maintaining that transport didn't go away, nor did the weekly costs of maintaining themselves. Worth pointing out also living costs have risen dramatically over the past year, Utilities, Fuel, Food etc.

I see to a certain extent your thinking but I'd wager more PUP recepients have been worse off, not better off and this aside from the Toll this awful past year has taken on people generally.

Gael23

If they paid decent wages people would be queuing up but when only the minimum wage is on offer it’s not going to happen

zerosugarbuzz

is_that_so wrote: »

With no transport nor any other associated employment costs it's a tidy enough sum for some and may well suit them for a few months. It's also €600 more a month than standard unemployment payments and people think it's tax free.

I’ve known a few, hairdressers, builder, restaurant worker who got it, all couldn’t wait to get back to work. Its nothing compared to what they’d normally earn, even part time when tips etc are considered. Supermarket workers never got the time off in the first place. More sad begrudgery as usual pointing at the less well off in society.

is_that_so

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

I’ve known a few, hairdressers, builder, restaurant worker who got it, all couldn’t wait to get back to work. Its nothing compared to what they’d normally earn, even part time when tips etc are considered. Supermarket workers never got the time off in the first place. More sad begrudgery as usual pointing at the less well off in society.

As I said there are some who will do so and some of my anecdotes contradict your anecdotes. How did you manage to get begrudgery out of my post?

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Most don't require a neurosurgeons income to live, but pup payments have clearly shown the dole isn't enough to live on, and many aren't also paid enough, baring in mind, a significant amount of pup money has gone straight back into the economy, keeping businesses open, and people in jobs, so........

There’s a huge difference between PUP and dole. PUP was/is a flat rate emergency payment for workers who find themselves unable to work due to pandemic. Checks were not made unless glaring issues arose, due to DSP staff working from home etc. Checks are being made now and bogus claims will be weeded out.

Dole has numerous extras, from medical card to rent support to hardship payments for communions, confirmations etc

Gael23

Gael23 wrote: »

If they paid decent wages people would be queuing up but when only the minimum wage is on offer it’s not going to happen

Let's see when the dole replaces PUP will there be as much job snobbery.

If there is we'll just import workers. Then you will have people moaning about people taking our jobs etc