The annual ASTI Easter strike threat

Cork Lass

BanditLuke wrote: »

Yes but they are being put ahead of the 40 year old bus driver or teacher who will encounter countless close household contacts in a small environment daily,

Because the 40 year old is at a lesser risk - can you not see that?

Figerty

blanch152 wrote: »

The real hypocrisy of the teacher unions is yet to be seen on this issue. Come September, if a school attempts to dismiss a teacher who has refused to be vaccinated and is putting everyone else in the school at risk, the teacher unions will be up in arms defending that teacher.

You are mistaken there., There unions job will be to represnt the teacher not to defend it. The union will make sure that due process is used. Again, people mix up what a union can do and what they think happens.

IF there is an indefensible case, the unions will not defend it, they will make sure that the case is made for the person in the process correctly.

Quin_Dub

BanditLuke wrote: »

The bottom line is the virus spreads in crowded conditions, it thrives there. Teachers, bus drivers etc.. and anyone else who works in crowded conditions should be vaccinated as a matter of priority.

Here's the thing though - How do they get that information?

• Where is the definitive register that says Person A works in a crowded environment and Person B doesn't ?
• Who does that work to determine who meets these additional criteria?
• How long will that take?
• How scalable will those filters be across the country to ensure the most efficient consumption of supplies?

That is the key challenge - The more pieces of information required to allocate an appointment the slower/harder is becomes to get through the population.

DOB is something that they readily have access to and there are clear links between age and illness impact.

It's not perfect and lots of groups may have possible legitimate reasons to feel hard done by , but in terms of the responsibility to get the vaccine to the most people in the shortest period of time then the simplest option is the best here.

blanch152

Figerty wrote: »

You are mistaken there., There unions job will be to represnt the teacher not to defend it. The union will make sure that due process is used. Again, people mix up what a union can do and what they think happens.

IF there is an indefensible case, the unions will not defend it, they will make sure that the case is made for the person in the process correctly.

I am expecting the teacher unions to make it a clear issue that no teacher can be dismissed for refusing to be vaccinated. This won't be about defending invididual teachers, it will be about establishing that teachers are untouchable.

Figerty

Locotastic wrote: »

Teacher unions trying to coordinate potential strike action over vaccine rollout change.

https://www.thejournal.ie/teachers-vaccine-5401487-Apr2021/

They really like to think they are comparable with frontline doctors and nurses. Those unions are despicable and I hope the government tells them where to go.

Let them spend the rest of the school year without pay and dock the days not worked from their holidays and pensions. If I was a teacher I'd be disgusted by this alleged representation of their profession.

You have your view, god love you as Joe Biden says. Tell the parent that their students are going to be locked out of school for the remainder of the year and with no online tuitiion or learning support and watch the fall out!

Strike action means no pay or pension for those days lost.

History Queen

blanch152 wrote: »

I am expecting the teacher unions to make it a clear issue that no teacher can be dismissed for refusing to be vaccinated. This won't be about defending invididual teachers, it will be about establishing that teachers are untouchable.

Why would they be dismissing unvaccinated teachers when there are unvaccinated students in the classes? None of the vaccines have been approved for u16s here yet as far as I'm aware?

blanch152

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Here's the thing though - How do they get that information?

• Where is the definitive register that says Person A works in a crowded environment and Person B doesn't ?
• Who does that work to determine who meets these additional criteria?
• How long will that take?
• How scalable will those filters be across the country to ensure the most efficient consumption of supplies?

That is the key challenge - The more pieces of information required to allocate an appointment the slower/harder is becomes to get through the population.

DOB is something that they readily have access to and there are clear links between age and illness impact.

It's not perfect and lot's of groups may have possible legitimate reasons to feel hard done by , but in terms of the responsibility to get the vaccine to the most people in the shortest period of time then the simplest option is the best here.

The government have seen already that the HSE staff protocol was abused. You can be certain that teachers on secondment to office jobs will find a way to be included if teachers are prioritised.

Irish people game every system there is, honesty is not our strongest cultural reference.

meeeeh

BanditLuke wrote: »

The bottom line is the virus spreads in crowded conditions, it thrives there. Teachers, bus drivers etc.. and anyone else who works in crowded conditions should be vaccinated as a matter of priority.

Well Pfizer tested their vaccine on 12 year olds and deemed it safe. They are in crowded spaces. Should they be prioritised ahead of 55 year old working from home?

Over 65 didn't disproportionately catch Covid yet they were the ones mostly dying from it. It's not just about catching Covid it's about the prognosis after you catch Covid.

blanch152

Figerty wrote: »

You have your view, god love you as Joe Biden says. Tell the parent that their students are going to be locked out of school for the remainder of the year and with no online tuitiion or learning support and watch the fall out!

Strike action means no pay or pension for those days lost.

Thing is teachers won't go on strike.

They won't want to lose pay. They will block parent/teacher meetings, refuse to do planning, attend training etc. They don't have the guts to actually properly strike and have pay deducted.

Figerty

blanch152 wrote: »

I am expecting the teacher unions to make it a clear issue that no teacher can be dismissed for refusing to be vaccinated. This won't be about defending invididual teachers, it will be about establishing that teachers are untouchable.

Not true. Haven't kept up with legistative changes have you. Teachers can be fired. Whether any person in the state can be refused for not taking a vaccine is a much , much bigger issue. Not just teaching, this crosses all sectors. Again, all a union will do is to make sure the HR processes are applied fairly.

15 months ago there was an outbreak of mumps in colleges due to a lack of vaccinations. Not so smart people decided that they wouldn't vaccinate their children 20 years ago.

BettyS

Why should the bus-drivers and taxi drivers (particularly the airport ones and the ones that pass by hospitals) fall behind teachers in the line?

Figerty

blanch152 wrote: »

Thing is teachers won't go on strike.

They won't want to lose pay. They will block parent/teacher meetings, refuse to do planning, attend training etc. They don't have the guts to actually properly strike and have pay deducted.

Hello.. do you not remember strike days in the past. Yes they will strike, and miss days pay and have done in the past. Will teachers strike for weeks on end? No. they don't need to. Strikes are not about being popular.

A simple one is that teacher may not volunteer to correct Leaving cert exams. They were having enough trouble in the past getting invigialators and correctors for the past few years. not too many retired teachers will invigilate now due to the risk. Think about that one.

Bubbaclaus

BettyS wrote: »

Why should the bus-drivers and taxi drivers (particularly the airport ones and the ones that pass by hospitals) fall behind teachers in the line?

You could have an argument for half the country I'd say. Even in my case, I work from home but my other half is a doctor and seeing sick patients 5/6 days per week. Should I get to jump the queue because I'm at increased risk due to what she could accidently bring home?

(I don't believe I should, just using myself as an example of why the arguments for preferential treatment would never stop)

BettyS

Figerty wrote: »

Hello.. do you not remember strike days in the past. Yes they will strike, and miss days pay and have done in the past. Will teachers strike for weeks on end? No. they don't need to. Strikes are not about being popular.

A simple one is that teacher may not volunteer to correct Leaving cert exams. They were having enough trouble in the past getting invigialators and correctors for the past few years. not too many retired teachers will invigilate now due to the risk. Think about that one.

I always had extremely high regard for my teachers in school. Most of them are hard-working people, who care about their students well. If they strike and cause even further angst for the poor LC students, I will completely turn against teachers and will never support any of their causes again. The ASTI needs to read the room. If they strike and disrupt the LC, there will be no way back for redemption

Quin_Dub

BettyS wrote: »

Why should the bus-drivers and taxi drivers (particularly the airport ones and the ones that pass by hospitals) fall behind teachers in the line?

That's the point - There will always be a group that can put their hand up and say "We should be next because XYZ" and most will have some degree of legitimacy in that claim.

The more we complicate the process, the slower it will be - The details required to identify all these potential categories of people simply doesn't exist.

We have everyones DOB , it's clean , it's simple and easy to administrate.

The focus should now entirely be on increasing the volume of vaccinations administered , not fidgeting with tables to move someone or other up or down the list by a few weeks.

Treppen

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

How do you know how many hours a locum doctor might have in a week?

I don't but how do you know how many hours teachers work each week!

But go on do tell, what's the hours a typical locum works every week?

khalessi

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

You could have an argument for half the country I'd say. Even in my case, I work from home but my other half is a doctor and seeing sick patients 5/6 days per week. Should I get to jump the queue because I'm at increased risk due to what she could accidently bring home?

The simple answer to that is no as demostrated by the fact they already vaccinated HCWs but not their families so it is a poor example.

BettyS

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

You could have an argument for half the country I'd say. Even in my case, I work from home but my other half is a doctor and seeing sick patients 5/6 days per week. Should I get to jump the queue because I'm at increased risk due to what she could accidently bring home?

(I don't believe I should, just using myself as an example of why the arguments for preferential treatment would never stop)

I am in the same boat as you!

I was trying to point out how dangerous the argument could become. It could become a free-for-all, and disrupt the critical national vaccination programme

Bubbaclaus

Treppen wrote: »

I don't but how do you know how many hours teachers work each week!

But go on do tell, what's the hours a typical locum works every week?

Go back to the post you were arguing against, and see why I made the point I did. There are no "typical" hours for a locum.

BettyS

khalessi wrote: »

The simple answer to that is no as demostrated by the fact they already vaccinated HCWs but not their families so it is a poor example.

The data regarding transmission of the virus from a vaccinated person is still pending. What if the doctor transmits the COVID to their family? Should they be punished for treating COVID patients? I don’t think that families should be vaccinated. But if you start arguing for one group, then many other groups with “reasonable” arguments will start popping up and demanding the vaccine and ultimately will disrupt the national rollout that will save lives

Treppen

BettyS wrote: »

I always had extremely high regard for my teachers in school. Most of them are hard-working people, who care about their students well. If they strike and cause even further angst for the poor LC students, I will completely turn against teachers and will never support any of their causes again. The ASTI needs to read the room. If they strike and disrupt the LC, there will be no way back for redemption

Sometimes protecting your members - and their families' s -lives and health supersedes CAO points.

tayto lover

blanch152 wrote: »

Thing is teachers won't go on strike.

They won't want to lose pay. They will block parent/teacher meetings, refuse to do planning, attend training etc. They don't have the guts to actually properly strike and have pay deducted.

You seem to be looking for them to strike.
A strike is always the last option for anyone.
You try other means first. Always.

Figerty

BettyS wrote: »

I always had extremely high regard for my teachers in school. Most of them are hard-working people, who care about their students well. If they strike and cause even further angst for the poor LC students, I will completely turn against teachers and will never support any of their causes again. The ASTI needs to read the room. If they strike and disrupt the LC, there will be no way back for redemption

Bettys, It's not going to worry teachers if you support them or not.
They deal with all sorts of students and parents every day.

Bubbaclaus

khalessi wrote: »

The simple answer to that is no as demostrated by the fact they already vaccinated HCWs but not their families so it is a poor example.

How is it a poor example? Why shouldn't the families of healthcare workers get done sooner than the general population, given the significantly increased risk they face?

See where this goes when we start to rank professions and circumstances like that?

Treppen

tayto lover wrote: »

You seem to be looking for them to strike.
A strike is always the last option for anyone.
You try other means first. Always.

Other means like what?

khalessi

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

How is it a poor example? Why shouldn't the families of healthcare workers get done sooner than the general population, given the significantly increased risk they face?

See where this goes when we start to rank professions and circumstances like that?

Doctor f2f with people who have Covid19 but family not, children will be goign to school which we are told is safe and other adults going to work or wfh.

If we are going by age and it is perfectly safe then reopen everything.
There is no need for people to be wfh. Schools are safe, it is safe for the 25 year old and the 50 year old while waiting for injections so reopen everything, claw back financial ruin for businesses. Government has deemed it safer to do by age well reopen everything so.

Bubbaclaus

khalessi wrote: »

Doctor f2f with people who have Covid19 but family not, children will be goign to school which we are told is safe and other adults going to work or wfh.

If we are going by age and it is perfectly safe then reopen everything.
There is no need for people to be wfh. Schools are safe, it is safe for the 25 year old and the 50 year old while waiting for injections so reopen everything, claw back financial ruin for businesses. Government has deemed it safer to do by age well reopen everything so.

Your post isn't making any sense at all to me, sorry.

Valhallapt

blanch152 wrote: »

Thing is teachers won't go on strike.

They won't want to lose pay. They will block parent/teacher meetings, refuse to do planning, attend training etc. They don't have the guts to actually properly strike and have pay deducted.

Exactly - self entitlement is unreal. I hope the government takes a hard line.

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

Doctor f2f with people who have Covid19 but family not, children will be goign to school which we are told is safe and other adults going to work or wfh.

If we are going by age and it is perfectly safe then reopen everything.
There is no need for people to be wfh. Schools are safe, it is safe for the 25 year old and the 50 year old while waiting for injections so reopen everything, claw back financial ruin for businesses. Government has deemed it safer to do by age well reopen everything so.

That's not logical argument it's overly emotional mixing up of two different problems. One is limiting spread in the community with lockdowns. The other one is that most vulnerable don't get sick or get milder version if getting sick. If you vaccinate 80% of 80% of population (let's say kids are 20%) with vaccine that is 80% effective you get just over 50% immunity. It means virus can still spread around community and mutate. That's why very careful reopening is needed even in countries with higher rates of vaccination. That being said if those who are not vaccinated are younger they will less likely block beds in hospitals that are needed for other patients.

Above is back of an envelope calculation, the percentage of immunity after having Covid is not taken into account.

khalessi

meeeeh wrote: »

That's not logical argument it's overly emotional mixing up of two different problems. One is limiting spread in the community with lockdowns. The other one is that most vulnerable don't get sick or get milder version if getting sick. If you vaccinate 80% of 80% of population (let's say kids are 20%) with vaccine that is 80% effective you get just over 50% immunity. It means virus can still spread around community and mutate. That's why very careful reopening is needed even in countries with higher rates of vaccination. That being said if those who are not vaccinated are younger they will less likely block beds in hospitals that are needed for other patients.

As sure if it is safe for a 25 year old in a classroom, and ye all say it is, to teach while waiting for their injection. Just open everything up. The government can go back to the Dáíl, they dont need to be in the Conference Center, wearing masks and social distancing. They can just wait for age related injection. SUre retail is mostly young staff open the shops

All those working from home can go back to the office and wait for their injection they are safe. Reopen everything, and just let age be the guide.