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The annual ASTI Easter strike threat
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Louis Friend wrote: »They showed themselves not to be frontline workers when they hid under their beds other than doing the odd Zoom call here and there.
I have a young female relative who teaches and I can assure you she didnt "hide" anywhere and is a lot braver than someone "hiding" behind a keyboard spouting populist idiotic craap to get thanks for self validation.0 -
I don't doubt your expertise, definitely better than mine. So if this was too complex why propose this system in the first place.
Did the government, and their advisers not realize that organizing a database based on occupation was near impossible.
Maybe NIAC are specialised in health but lack the expertise in logistics or procedures. But again, it's not the government, its NIAC.
I've seen the testing center in Galway and the logic behind it could have been better. 1 slow person taking a test delays up to 5 tests. This delay has a ripple affect throughout the day. I put this down to lack of logic on the planners, but then again, they're health care professionals they mightnt have had training in this area.0 -
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Regarding teachers, the government had a minimum of 3 databses to choose from. The Teaching Council - all teachers need a number to teach, Dept of Ed payroll, Revenue.- Do any of them tell you if they are actually physically teaching in a classroom right now? Perhaps they are in an admin role now (Principal , Vice Principal) , Career break etc. etc.
- How often are those tables updated?
- Where does that data exist?
- Who is allowed access it?
- Do we have GDPR approval and authorisation from the owner of each entry in this table to share it with another organsiation?
- What format is it in?
- Is it compatible with whatever database solution is being used by the vaccination teams?
- Do they all use the same naming conventions?
- Etc. etc. ad infinitum.
There is absolutely no way to establish a risk based vaccination schedule for Teachers or indeed any other potentially "at increased risk" group in a time line that does not massively impact the countries ability to reach a critical mass of vaccinated adults.
People can have a moan about what they were told/promised a year ago , but the factual realities of right here and right now are inescapable.
It cannot be done - Use D.O.B. and get on with it.
Teachers and everyone else can express their displeasure at the ballot box - Any other action is damaging to the country as a whole.0 -
Regarding teachers, the government had a minimum of 3 databses to choose from. The Teaching Council - all teachers need a number to teach, Dept of Ed payroll, Revenue.
You're missing the point, handing data between depts is a huge issue under GDPR.
So there might be laws saying revenue can get HSE data. I know they can get personal social welfare data.
But until now, I don't think anyone would have thought the HSE should have access to revenues data or the teachers database.
This would probably have to be put into leglislation or the teachers would have to give permission for it to be given.
And this is only taking into account teachers, what about the rest (gardai, bus drivers, snas, cleaners, etc)
Keep in mind I work with GDPR but I don't know what laws are in place for public bodies transferring data, just that it's not as simple as some think. The 'government' don't have access to everything, each dept is a separate entity.0 -
The minister did originally tell the teachers that they would be prioritised. Now they are being told they will not be prioritised. I think betrayal isn't that far off the mark.
That said, I don't think they should be prioritised. Nor should other sectors outside a medical/nursing home setting. The age based system seems the most efficient. That should be the focus.
My young relatives (primary school aged) had great experiences with their teachers during lockdown. The level of interaction/feedback was great by all accounts.
The reason they were promised it in the first place was to cajole unions and plamas teachers into returning to their workplace.
They must be the only profession that needed such promises to make them go back to their place of work.
Most businesses would be only delighted to return. They've been told now that the vaccination plans won't be changed to suit them.
Things change quickly and the vaccination rollout has changed numerous times. Teachers have been really shown up during this past year and their unions don't do them any favours (I heard they made a right show of themselves on a couple of radio segments today).
Those unions would do well to remember that we still have nearly half a million people on PUP even now and maybe be grateful for their members having a job with such good conditions when our economy bottoms out.
People are angry and the continued demands for special treatment from unions will go down like a lead balloon.0 -
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Locotastic wrote: »The reason they were promised it in the first place was to cajole unions and plamas teachers into returning to their workplace.
They must be the only profession that needed such promises to make them go back to their place of work.
Most businesses would be only delighted to return. They've been told now that the vaccination plans won't be changed to suit them.
Things change quickly and the vaccination rollout has changed numerous times. Teachers have been really shown up during this past year and their unions don't do them any favours.
Those unions would do well to remember that we still have nearly half a million people on PUP even now and maybe be grateful for their members having a job with such good conditions when our economy bottoms out.
People are angry and the continued demands for special treatment from unions will go down like a lead balloon.
People are always angry you can spot the same anti teacher brigade that appear on every thread and nearly fall over themselves in glee to be negative about teachers. Long history on boards and the amount of threads since last March is hilarious, a lot of people out there with issues to be worked out.
So tell me how have teachers shown themselves up over the last year? Provide links please.
HCWs at the beginning of the pandemic had to get unions in to get better ppe in order for them to continue to work in workplace. Doctors were threatenting strike in December dont worry about that. It is only shameful to threaten strike on safety grounds if a teacher.0 -
Crocodile Booze wrote: »I have a young female relative who teaches and I can assure you she didnt "hide" anywhere and is a lot braver than someone "hiding" behind a keyboard spouting populist idiotic craap to get thanks for self validation.
They should have taught in person through the crisis.
By not doing so, they gave up their right to be classified as frontline workers.
The goverment is perfectly right to follow the UK and do the logical thing...vaccinate based on age.
Your young relative is at much less risk than, say, a 60 year old lawyer.
The Unions are betraying their members and the country. The public mood is firmly against the teachers and turning vitrolic.0 -
You're missing the point, handing data between depts is a huge issue under GDPR.
So there might be laws saying revenue can get HSE data. I know they can get personal social welfare data.
But until now, I don't think anyone would have thought the HSE should have access to revenues data or the teachers database.
This would probably have to be put into leglislation or the teachers would have to give permission for it to be given.
And this is only taking into account teachers, what about the rest (gardai, bus drivers, snas, cleaners, etc)
Keep in mind I work with GDPR but I don't know what laws are in place for public bodies transferring data, just that it's not as simple as some think. The 'government' don't have access to everything, each dept is a separate entity.
I understand your argument, I'm just wondering about the teaching council database out of curiosity. It is publically searchable would that make it easier to transfer data from, from a GDPR point of view? As in the data itself is public so would the process of gathering it and transferring it be easier as a result or would it have no bearing?0 -
People are always angry you can spot the same anti teacher brigade that appear on every thread and nearly fall over themselves in glee to be negative about teachers. Long history on boards and the amount of threads since last March is hilarious, a lot of people out there with issues to be worked out.
So tell me how have teachers shown themselves up over the last year? Provide links please.
HCWs at the beginning of the pandemic had to get unions in to get better ppe in order for them to continue to work in workplace. Doctors were threatenting strike in December dont worry about that. It is only shameful to threaten strike on safety grounds if a teacher.
Stop comparing teachers to doctors and nurses and health care workers, they don't even come close.
You want a link to how teachers have shown themselves up? Really :rolleyes:
Teachers unions have threatened strike action how many times in the past year?
I'm not anti teacher, I sympathise with any teacher trying to do a good job given the culture.
I'm anti self-entitled, greedy, selfish, self-important, out of touch with reality of our dire situation, me fein attitudes which is what is portrayed when representatives of an entire profession (that was not in their normal workplace for a good chunk of the past year) think that they can rightfully get vaccines before those who need them the most.
Vaccinating those people before teachers will benefit the whole country.
The unions are essentially advocating for older people to wait for their vaccines so that teachers can be vaccinated, and you don't know why people might be angry about that?
We all benefit if it's done with the proper priorities.0 -
Still can't believe the ASTI ( unsure of other unions ) have the gall to bring teachers pay into this very serious situation regarding a global pandemic.
Vaccination by age is the way to go. I believe the vast majority of teachers never wanted remote schooling to last this long. It's only a few delicate few souls that have fought tooth and nail to sit at home. These few have skin in the game. Time to get behind the rest of the workforce and work through the remainder of the pandemic. Unfortunately these minority not moans have done very little for the public view of teachers.0 -
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People are always angry you can spot the same anti teacher brigade that appear on every thread and nearly fall over themselves in glee to be negative about teachers. Long history on boards and the amount of threads since last March is hilarious, a lot of people out there with issues to be worked out.
So tell me how have teachers shown themselves up over the last year? Provide links please.
HCWs at the beginning of the pandemic had to get unions in to get better ppe in order for them to continue to work in workplace. Doctors were threatenting strike in December dont worry about that. It is only shameful to threaten strike on safety grounds if a teacher.
Well ye don't help yourselves when teachers unions demand others who are more likely to get sick from C19 are pushed back in the queue so teachers can get it first.
And threaten to strike they don't get their own way.0 -
History Queen wrote: »I understand your argument, I'm just wondering about the teaching council database out of curiosity. It is publically searchable would that make it easier to transfer data from, from a GDPR point of view? As in the data itself is public so would the process of gathering it and transferring it be easier as a result or would it have no bearing?
Yes if its public then anyone can access it.
But this is only talking about teachers, should the HSE have to cross link this database with their own to make sure teachers would me marked as vaccinated? If so how, would they use name and dob, addresses might not work.
It would be hugely difficult to then mark the teachers off other databases which means they get another appointment probably for another vaccination.
Keep in mind, I don't know what information is there but cross linking databases is difficult without key identifiers on both databases like a pps number.0 -
Yes if its public then anyone can access it.
But this is only talking about teachers, should the HSE have to cross link this database with their own to make sure teachers would me marked as vaccinated? If so how, would they use name and dob, addresses might not work.
It would be hugely difficult to then mark the teachers off other databases which means they get another appointment probably for another vaccination.
Keep in mind, I don't know what information is there but cross linking databases is difficult without key identifiers on both databases like a pps number.
Oh I'm not arguing for it. After reading your previous posts I see the issues. I was just curious and thought I'd ask. It's not a field I know much about, aside from the GDPR training we get at work, which is obviously quite basic.0 -
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History Queen wrote: »I understand your argument, I'm just wondering about the teaching council database out of curiosity. It is publically searchable would that make it easier to transfer data from, from a GDPR point of view? As in the data itself is public so would the process of gathering it and transferring it be easier as a result or would it have no bearing?
It being publicly visible doesn't mean that you'd be allowed connect it with another data source (like revenue or HSE) to create the data-set you'd need.
That database also (I'm guessing) doesn't clarify the current role of the teacher - It just says they are a registered teacher , not if they are currently teaching live in a class room.
There are just a whole host of challenges - legal, technical and practical to creating a robust data-set that would provide the required information.
It *could* be done of course , but not in a manner that wouldn't negatively impact the overall vaccination schedule.
If we want to remove all the restrictions and get everyone back to work and leading lives that we'd consider "normal" time is the thing we have the least of.
The simplest ,fastest way to get our lives back is to use a single method to schedule vaccinations and that is DOB.
Totally understand that Teachers and Gardai feel they were lied to and that promises have been broken.
But - That Egg is already broken , we can't unbreak it , we just don't have the time.
Like I said , Teachers et al can and should express their frustration at the ballot box , but threats of Strike action will achieve nothing and simply should not happen in the wider context of trying to get the country back to normal.0 -
I have to say Minister Foley speaking at the INTO conference came across very cold. I'd expect she didn't win over many with her speach.0
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It being publicly visible doesn't mean that you'd be allowed connect it with another data source (like revenue or HSE) to create the data-set you'd need.
That database also (I'm guessing) doesn't clarify the current role of the teacher - It just says they are a registered teacher , not if they are currently teaching live in a class room.
There are just a whole host of challenges - legal, technical and practical to creating a robust data-set that would provide the required information.
It *could* be done of course , but not in a manner that wouldn't negatively impact the overall vaccination schedule.
If we want to remove all the restrictions and get everyone back to work and leading lives that we'd consider "normal" time is the thing we have the least of.
The simplest ,fastest way to get our lives back is to use a single method to schedule vaccinations and that is DOB.
Totally understand that Teachers and Gardai feel they were lied to and that promises have been broken.
But - That Egg is already broken , we can't unbreak it , we just don't have the time.
Like I said , Teachers et al can and should express their frustration at the ballot box , but threats of Strike action will achieve nothing and simply should not happen in the wider context of trying to get the country back to normal.
Thanks for that. To be honest I can't see teachers striking, could be wrong but many in my own, albeit small circle, are accepting of the new system. I'd think it a lot more likely they'll go with industrial action in the form of work to rule if the ballots pass, no unpaid work etc. That type of thing. I can't see any 6th year teacher for example, voting to further disrupt their students.0 -
Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,487 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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We don’t “ feel” we were lied to, we were ! And whilst retail workers have a claim, school staff would have a greater claim.Shop customers aren’t face to face with one staff member for in excess of 5 hours in a badly ventilated space . You’d also hope retail staff aren’t expected to tie laces, zip up coats , open lunch’s and go from customer to customer to explain tasks in greater detail and to correct work . Teachers can’t remain behind screens- it’s not the 1950s
The rules in place for other work places don’t apply to schools . In primary , half the classes don’t have to do any social distancing at all. In the older classes , it’s a metre “ where possible “ ie in no classroom here . All the children are unmasked , the teacher can’t stay behind their Perspex screen , or limit the number presenting at one time .And our poor SNAs are even worse off .0 -
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Supermarkets were among the first last year to role out protective measures like gloves, perspex screening in by May in a lot of places, masks. They also have mechanical ventilation which considered extremely important in fighting this. Lidl have said they will be starting to carry out antigen testing on staff twice weekly. They have large spaces, high ceilings, limited numbers in store, social distancing and handle products with gloves though fomites on surfaces are not considered as much as threat as airborne aerosols in latest studies. Customers dont spend 5 hours instore with them.
However despite all that they should be vaccinated at same as all frontline workers but we got rid of that so it is a pointless argument it is age now.
You expect us to all share sympathetic views with your profession, and yet you seem to take a dump on other professions’ worries and risks. Do you think that teachers have the highest risk of all?
And where does the concept of frontline end? And what about my ICU friend’s mother who looks after his kids while him and his wife go into work. Is she not a frontline worker? If you start making provisions for one, you will end up undermining and slowing down the whole pace of the national screening programme0 -
I have to say Minister Foley speaking at the INTO conference came across very cold. I'd expect she didn't win over many with her speach.
Which minister of education ever made the teachers happy?
The cynic in me feels this vaccine spat is really about guaranteeing that teachers will be fully vaccinated by September. I believe they will forego the initial demand of moving up the priority list now if they are given a September guarantee. Otherwise they will definitely strike then.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
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Regarding teachers, the government had a minimum of 3 databses to choose from. The Teaching Council - all teachers need a number to teach, Dept of Ed payroll, Revenue.
The minister health recently got a slap on the wrist for access the cervical screening database and sending them an update. GDPR is not something that can circumvented over a coffee on boards. The government cannot just start accessing and storing people’s profession.0 -
History Queen wrote: »I understand your argument, I'm just wondering about the teaching council database out of curiosity. It is publically searchable would that make it easier to transfer data from, from a GDPR point of view? As in the data itself is public so would the process of gathering it and transferring it be easier as a result or would it have no bearing?
And who would gather this information? Would you search each person individually? And then who would verify the accuracy of the data? And who would be the data controller? And what happens if somebody does not want their information held by the national screening programme?0 -
People are always angry you can spot the same anti teacher brigade that appear on every thread and nearly fall over themselves in glee to be negative about teachers. Long history on boards and the amount of threads since last March is hilarious, a lot of people out there with issues to be worked out.
I think a lot of that is self inflicted to be honest. I joined the Covid Schools thread a few months back and was actually complimentary in saying that the teacher engagement had improved significantly as Covid went on but I did criticise the initial levels of engagement (March - June 2020) for my children. For that, I was essentially run off the thread. Many teachers on Boards will not take constructive criticism or accept actual events if it doesn't suit their narrative. You yourself defended the St Gerard's teachers without question.What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?
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And who would gather this information? Would you search each person individually? And then who would verify the accuracy of the data? And who would be the data controller? And what happens if somebody does not want their information held by the national screening programme?
I know there are issues. I don't have the answers. Nor wasI seeking them. Just as a teacher whose information in on the council register I was wondering how "moveable" thedata was. That's all.
But as you brought it up, don't some of your questions apply to everyone and any system of vaccination or have I misunderstood?0 -
Louis Friend wrote: »They should have taught in person through the crisis.
that wouldn't have been safe or viable.
they did teach in person when it was safe and viable, but throughout the whole pandemic wouldn't have been possible.Louis Friend wrote: »By not doing so, they gave up their right to be classified as frontline workers.
they didn't, that's not how this works.Louis Friend wrote: »The Unions are betraying their members and the country.
they aren't, they are standing up for their members as is their job.
as long as their members are happy that's all that does, and should matter to them.Louis Friend wrote: »The public mood is firmly against the teachers and turning vitrolic.
some of it is yes, from the elements who always turn vitriolic when people stand up for themselves.
it won't make any difference to what happens or the outcome.
the outcome is that the age based system will continue, whether industrial action happens or not who knows.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »that wouldn't have been safe or viable.
they did teach in person when it was safe and viable, but throughout the whole pandemic wouldn't have been possible.
they didn't, that's not how this works.
they aren't, they are standing up for their members as is their job.
as long as their members are happy that's all that does, and should matter to them.
some of it is yes, from the elements who always turn vitriolic when people stand up for themselves.
it won't make any difference to what happens or the outcome.
the outcome is that the age based system will continue, whether industrial action happens or not who knows.
The public and the government need to remember where teachers and their unions were in our hour of need.
These unions need to be crushed and teacher salaries need to be frozen for a decade.
It’s time to open up all of the old debates; these people work half-days EVERY DAY and get 3-4 months’ paid holidays every year. And still they’re not happy. Make them work in the school holidays or take unpaid leave.0 -
This is a pretty serious accusation to make. If he's not just ****stirring he is completely undermining the NIAC as well as spreading fear.
https://twitter.com/TJRyan_77/status/1379452742696058882?s=190 -
Louis Friend wrote: »The public and the government need to remember where teachers and their unions were in our hour of need.
These unions need to be crushed and teacher salaries need to be frozen for a decade.
It’s time to open up all of the old debates; these people work half-days EVERY DAY and get 3-4 months’ paid holidays every year. And still they’re not happy. Make them work in the school holidays or take unpaid leave.
Hyperbolic much ?0 -
History Queen wrote: »I know there are issues. I don't have the answers. Nor wasI seeking them. Just as a teacher whose information in on the council register I was wondering how "moveable" thedata was. That's all.
But as you brought it up, don't some of your questions apply to everyone and any system of vaccination or have I misunderstood?
Our DOB is linked to our PPS. This is stored on a national database. How do you think that the national screening programme just magically sends an appointment on the right date? The government can access this information in the interest of public safety (a pandemic will fulfil this criterion)0 -
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You expect us to all share sympathetic views with your profession, and yet you seem to take a dump on other professions’ worries and risks. Do you think that teachers have the highest risk of all?
And where does the concept of frontline end? And what about my ICU friend’s mother who looks after his kids while him and his wife go into work. Is she not a frontline worker? If you start making provisions for one, you will end up undermining and slowing down the whole pace of the national screening programme
No there is no sympaty on boards, its a tradition I dont expect anything. I dont dump on other professions worries. Do I think teachers have highest risk, well hard to tell in Ireland but international data ONS would show teachers have second highest risk of Long Covid in UK after HCW and I know how much people here love data. Many countries realise that schools are linked to R numbers closing schools lowers the R number. Teachers had 6000+ put on Covid leave in Sept/Oct, the response was not to look at safety but to change the definitions of close contacts in schools because there were not enough subs.
Every step of the way on this people have objected to teachers asking for safety in schools.What is the problem? No one objected when HCWs unions demanded better ppe, they weren't told to get on with it. Teachers are told they are being hysterical, over emotional but now countries in Europe prioritising teachers and US also.
It wasn't teachers that claimed frontline status that only happened last Autumn by the gov and was referred to a number of times by Taoiseach and Tanaiste since them when it suits them. Now that teachers aren't frontline workers that is fine but they should be given the same status as other non frontline workers and encouraged to wfh for the health and safety of the country.
There was a vast improvement in online connectivity this time around. It is not ideal but until all are vaccinated by age it will have to be done. Either that or reopen whole country, and take a calculated risk, all 25 year olds are as safe as each other no? Get everyone back to work, lessen the looming financial crisis and everyone wait their age related turn, while taking the same safety precautions, masks and hand sanitisers are enough apparently.
In regards to your friends ICU mother no she is not frontline, going by HSE guidelines at best she is a casual contact. Frontline has always been facing the public looking after family is not considered frontline, due to limited amount of people and exposure. But if you are not sure you can always contact HSE for their definition but dont expect the answer to be constant changes like the wind.0
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