The annual ASTI Easter strike threat

Quin_Dub

khalessi wrote: »

As sure if it is safe for a 25 year old in a classroom, and ye all say it is, to teach while waiting for their injection. Just open everything up. The government can go back to the Dáíl, they dont need to be in the Conference Center, wearing masks and social distancing. They can just wait for age related injection. SUre retail is mostly young staff open the shops

All those working from home can go back to the office and wait for their injection they are safe. Reopen everything, and just let age be the guide.

You really don't understand how a virus works do you?

Lockdowns have absolutely nothing to do with who gets the vaccine first - It's about reaching a critical mass of vaccinated people , whether those people are teachers or not.

meeeeh

khalessi wrote: »

As sure if it is safe for a 25 year old in a classroom, and ye all say it is, to teach while waiting for their injection. Just open everything up. The government can go back to the Dáíl, they dont need to be in the Conference Center, wearing masks and social distancing. They can just wait for age related injection. SUre retail is mostly young staff open the shops

All those working from home can go back to the office and wait for their injection they are safe. Reopen everything, and just let age be the guide.

Safer doesn't equate safe.

However if you are asking me of TD's should go back to Dail I have no objection (I think that RDS thing is more of an unnecessary charade). I think you are angry and that's fine but angry reaction often isn't the most logical.

khalessi

Quin_Dub wrote: »

You really don't understand how a virus works do you?

Lockdowns have absolutely nothing to do with who gets the vaccine first - It's about reaching a critical mass of vaccinated people , whether those people are teachers or not.

Go on explain how a virus works happy to learn:D

khalessi

meeeeh wrote: »

Safer doesn't equate safe.

However if you are asking me of TD's should go back to Dail I have no objection (I think that RDS thing is more of an unnecessary charade). I think you are angry and that's fine but angry reaction often isn't the most logical.

Just to clarify not angry at all

Finty Lemon

Valhallapt wrote: »

Exactly - self entitlement is unreal. I hope the government takes a hard line.

The Norma-nator has ruled out any changes. She is a good one.

Meanwhile Aodhan O'Riordain takes to twitter to butter up the unions as per usual. That man has the spine of a cuttlefish.

Quin_Dub

khalessi wrote: »

Go on explain how a virus works happy to learn:D

In the context of your post , I think my reply stands for itself.

Now that the key risk groups are vaccinated , the pathway to the removal of restrictions is a matter of volume - It's got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the order in which people get vaccinated.

The quickest and easiest way to get through the numbers is to use the simplest and most readily available method to filter and organise the outstanding list of people.

That method is DOB and doing it in reverse order (oldest first) makes the most sense as well in terms of maximising benefits.

Trying to work out who goes next based on a list of poorly defined criteria with incredibly low levels of confidence in the accuracy of the data would be a mess and just prolong everything.

suicide_circus

Would supermarket workers not have a better case than teachers? Exposed to a parade of randomers all day long without a pause throughout the pandemic for low wages while teachers at least have the same 20-30 kids to deal with and had a lot of time WFH

Newbie20

suicide_circus wrote: »

Would supermarket workers not have a better case than teachers? Exposed to a parade of randomers all day long for low wages while teachers at least have the same 20-30 kids to deal with

The funny thing is this argument could easily be made. But teacher unions aren’t making the case for the supermarket workers. The teacher unions represent the teachers. Why people think they should be making a case for gardaí or supermarkets is beyond me when they don’t represent them.

Quin_Dub

suicide_circus wrote: »

Would supermarket workers not have a better case than teachers? Exposed to a parade of randomers all day long for low wages while teachers at least have the same 20-30 kids to deal with

There are a multitude of groups that could claim to be deserving of prioritisation

Teachers
Bus Drivers
Taxi Drivers
Shop Workers
Delivery drivers
Cleaning Staff in Shops , Schools etc.

But how in the hell is anyone supposed to establish who meets the criteria for one of these groups?

Now that we are past the medically most vulnerable and those working directly with the medically vulnerable trying to apply a host of other variables just over complicates everything.

Just use DOB and ramp up the volumes of vaccinations - We should be aiming for 35-40k per day nationally.

That would have everyone over 18 done by the end of August and probably a good bit sooner with the one-shot J&J vaccine coming online now as well.

Trying to apply any other prioritisation will just slow things down.

suicide_circus

Newbie20 wrote: »

Why people think they should be making a case for gardar supermarkets is beyond me when they don’t represent them.

I dont think they should.

I think it's a legitimate act by the unions. I also think it's an ugly sight to see people trampling over the more vulnerable to get to the lifeboats first but i understand it.

Necro

tayto lover wrote: »

People should lay-off Unions.
Without them we’d be still working in the dark ages with little or no rights.
Take that from someone who worked in a job where there was no union a lot of years ago.

Unions absolutely have a purpose though it does seem in this country they have far, far too much power - particularly in the public sector. (Public sector worker btw before you ask, not in a union though)

I respect the job that unions have done in the past but nowadays it seems every little aspect of a job has the unions howling and gnashing their teeth and threatening to ballot their members (not just teachers unions, the whole lot of them).

Personally I think changing to the age related method is what should have been done in the first place, whatever gets the vaccine pushed out there faster is the method that should be used.

As Quin_Dub has been saying, the issue is you can make a case for a lot of specific employments or roles in society that should go first (HCWs and the elderly put to the side for a moment)

Teachers
Gardai
Carers of children with disabilities
Supermarket workers
Bus Drivers
Taxi Drivers


Get rid of the 'essential worker' tagline and just do it by age, and start pumping needles into arms and get the country back open.

corollake35

Unfortunately, unions are a necessary evil in this country.
From my experience they are generally run by the laziest self important me feiners out there.
They have to be seen to be earning their salary, so cause an unnecessary fuss to be in the lime light.
I do believe when teachers come along and say they are not representing them, if only the unions would listen.
The unfortunate part is that without these same unions, employees in a lot of low paid sectors would be absolutely hammered by their employers.

khalessi

suicide_circus wrote: »

Would supermarket workers not have a better case than teachers? Exposed to a parade of randomers all day long without a pause throughout the pandemic for low wages while teachers at least have the same 20-30 kids to deal with and had a lot of time WFH

Supermarkets were among the first last year to role out protective measures like gloves, perspex screening in by May in a lot of places, masks. They also have mechanical ventilation which considered extremely important in fighting this. Lidl have said they will be starting to carry out antigen testing on staff twice weekly. They have large spaces, high ceilings, limited numbers in store, social distancing and handle products with gloves though fomites on surfaces are not considered as much as threat as airborne aerosols in latest studies. Customers dont spend 5 hours instore with them.

However despite all that they should be vaccinated at same as all frontline workers but we got rid of that so it is a pointless argument it is age now.

Triangle

Jada Gray Archive wrote: »

The only reason the government have switched to going by age is because they did not bother putting together a proper central database that would enable them to give vaccines to particular cohorts. This is the reason.

It's not that simple.
First of all, it's not the government. It's NIAC.
Socondly, which database would you use as a central one? Does it have occupation status in it? Is it accessible by the HSE? Gdpr would prevent some databases like revenues to be accessed by HSE? Then some wouldn't be on revenues database unless they've worked or claims SW.
I work in IT and linking databases to get a large one with different information from various sources is very tricky and impossible in a medium time frame.
There is an insane amount of complexity. And then needing to rely on those results without weeks of testing........

Louis Friend

Teachers have lost the dressing room.

The age-related approach makes perfect sense; a 59 year old accountant is more at risk than a 27 year old teacher.

But there’s a deeper issue; the Unions talk about “betrayal” but many of the parents of Ireland feel betrayed by teachers. They showed themselves not to be frontline workers when they hid under their beds other than doing the odd Zoom call here and there.

PeadarCo

Newbie20 wrote: »

The funny thing is this argument could easily be made. But teacher unions aren’t making the case for the supermarket workers. The teacher unions represent the teachers. Why people think they should be making a case for gardaí or supermarkets is beyond me when they don’t represent them.

Because its an abuse of their power. Unions were set up to stop abuse of power.

People in both the Coombe and Beacon hospitals have been rightly received criticism for bumping people up the vaccination queue.

There is not a lot of difference between what happened in those 2 cases and what the teachers union are attempting to do. In some respects it's worse as what the teachers unions are doing is premeditated and would have a big impact on the rollout of the entire vaccination programme. In the two hospitals mentioned at least it wasn't the normal practice and only related to a very small number of vaccines and has had minimal impact on the overall programme (that's not a defence of what happened in the hospitals).

Newbie20

PeadarCo wrote: »

Because its an abuse of their power. Unions were set up to stop abuse of power.

People in both the Coombe and Beacon hospitals have been rightly received criticism for bumping people up the vaccination queue.

There is not a lot of difference between what happened in those 2 cases and what the teachers union are attempting to do. In some respects it's worse as what the teachers unions are doing is premeditated and would have a big impact on the rollout of the entire vaccination programme. In the two hospitals mentioned at least it wasn't the normal practice and only related to a very small number of vaccines and has had minimal impact on the overall programme (that's not a defence of what happened in the hospitals).

Comparing this to what happened in the Beacon and the Coombe is some nonsense.

Quin_Dub

Triangle wrote: »

It's not that simple.
First of all, it's not the government. It's NIAC.
Socondly, which database would you use as a central one? Does it have occupation status in it? Is it accessible by the HSE? Gdpr would prevent some databases like revenues to be accessed by HSE? Then some wouldn't be on revenues database unless they've worked or claims SW.
I work in IT and linking databases to get a large one with different information from various sources is very tricky and impossible in a medium time frame.
There is an insane amount of complexity. And then needing to rely on those results without weeks of testing........

This is the point I have been trying to make.

The information to pull together this "risk" based table simply doesn't exist today in a single location and trying to pull it together could take months or even years - Nothing whatsoever to do with Government efficiency or lack thereof.

The required data either simply doesn't exist , or exists split across a multitude of data sources with multiple different public and private owners requiring large scale complex data transformation and probably even some legislation to allow one single entity to have access to all the data consolidated in a single dataset.

All that matters now is speed.

Locotastic

Figerty wrote: »

You have your view, god love you as Joe Biden says. Tell the parent that their students are going to be locked out of school for the remainder of the year and with no online tuitiion or learning support and watch the fall out!

Strike action means no pay or pension for those days lost.

We've managed most of the last 12 months without them a few more weeks won't matter.

I'm a parent to three students (two of whom have not been inside a school yet this year) and I could care less if the teachers went on strike for what's left of the school year if it meant that those unions were told where to go.

PeadarCo

Newbie20 wrote: »

Comparing this to what happened in the Beacon and the Coombe is some nonsense.

It's no different. Senior people in both hospitals abused their positions of power to give vaccines to people who shouldn't have ie not follow the government vaccination policy.

Here we have a union that says its members should be exempt from the government vaccination policy and is prepared to use industrial action to try and force the government to change course.

The only difference is scale and organisation. Both are about people jumping the queue and ignoring government vaccination guidelines due to the political power that they hold.

Triangle

Quin_Dub wrote: »

This is the point I have been trying to make.

The information to pull together this "risk" based table simply doesn't exist today in a single location and trying to pull it together could take months or even years - Nothing whatsoever to do with Government efficiency or lack thereof.

The required data either simply doesn't exist , or exists split across a multitude of data sources with multiple different public and private owners requiring large scale complex data transformation and probably even some legislation to allow one single entity to have access to all the data consolidated in a single dataset.

All that matters now is speed.

Yeah, I saw your post after I replied to that one.
Can't agree more. Speed in rollout. The kiss method (keep it stupidly simple)

Bubbaclaus

Good article about the situation and how any attempt to pander to the teacher unions would be a kick in the teeth to small businesses and people that have been badly affected income wise.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/shouting-loudest-shouldnt-get-teachers-moved-up-vaccine-priority-list-small-businesses-40281146.html

blanch152

suicide_circus wrote: »

Would supermarket workers not have a better case than teachers? Exposed to a parade of randomers all day long without a pause throughout the pandemic for low wages while teachers at least have the same 20-30 kids to deal with and had a lot of time WFH

Lots of workers have a better case than teachers. Even within the school environment, SNAs and cleaners should be ahead of teachers.

Outside schools, retail workers, meat factory and other food production workers, carers, gardai, bus drivers, postmen, couriers, etc. all have higher risk factors than teachers. However, as others have said, identifying those at risk is problematic. We have seen self-selection fail miserably with frontline healthcare workers and that queue being jumped.

BanditLuke

Louis Friend wrote: »

Teachers have lost the dressing room.

The age-related approach makes perfect sense; a 59 year old accountant is more at risk than a 27 year old teacher.

But there’s a deeper issue; the Unions talk about “betrayal” but many of the parents of Ireland feel betrayed by teachers. They showed themselves not to be frontline workers when they hid under their beds other than doing the odd Zoom call here and there.

They've lost the dressing room in your head. I fully support them.

joe40

Triangle wrote: »

It's not that simple.
First of all, it's not the government. It's NIAC.
Socondly, which database would you use as a central one? Does it have occupation status in it? Is it accessible by the HSE? Gdpr would prevent some databases like revenues to be accessed by HSE? Then some wouldn't be on revenues database unless they've worked or claims SW.
I work in IT and linking databases to get a large one with different information from various sources is very tricky and impossible in a medium time frame.
There is an insane amount of complexity. And then needing to rely on those results without weeks of testing........

I don't doubt your expertise, definitely better than mine. So if this was too complex why propose this system in the first place.

Did the government, and their advisers not realize that organizing a database based on occupation was near impossible.

Patrick2010

Thought schools were the safest places to be?

Finty Lemon

corollake35 wrote: »

Unfortunately, unions are a necessary evil in this country.
From my experience they are generally run by the laziest self important me feiners out there.
They have to be seen to be earning their salary, so cause an unnecessary fuss to be in the lime light.
I do believe when teachers come along and say they are not representing them, if only the unions would listen.
The unfortunate part is that without these same unions, employees in a lot of low paid sectors would be absolutely hammered by their employers.

All you have to do is look at how the ASTI treated its youngest members when austerity measures were introduced a few years ago. Pulled the ladder up and let the youngest members take the hit.

They have always looked for age based increments pay increments too, to suit the teachers closest to retiring. Good ol pension bump.

Beasty

joe40 wrote: »

I don't doubt your expertise, definitely better than mine. So if this was too complex why propose this system in the first place.

Did the government, and their advisers not realize that organizing a database based on occupation was near impossible.

I would not be at all surprised. I suspect any prior announcements about priorities were to some extent political without a great depth of thought going into the practicalities. But it's not only Ireland.

And let's face it GDPR has thrown a big spanner in to the works here. Everyone was rightly obsessed with compliance and no-one would have foreseen anything like this (certainly in the world of data controllers). It's coming back to bite big time now. Of course the EU are keeping their heads down, but Brussels bureaucracy has resulted in significant practical issues in managing this pandemic (including a complete failure to work through the consequences of their approach to vaccines with other countries able to take totally appropriate shortcuts to reduce the overall risk profile of this pandemic)

KaneToad

Louis Friend wrote: »

Teachers have lost the dressing room.

The age-related approach makes perfect sense; a 59 year old accountant is more at risk than a 27 year old teacher.

But there’s a deeper issue; the Unions talk about “betrayal” but many of the parents of Ireland feel betrayed by teachers. They showed themselves not to be frontline workers when they hid under their beds other than doing the odd Zoom call here and there.

The minister did originally tell the teachers that they would be prioritised. Now they are being told they will not be prioritised. I think betrayal isn't that far off the mark.

That said, I don't think they should be prioritised. Nor should other sectors outside a medical/nursing home setting. The age based system seems the most efficient. That should be the focus.

My young relatives (primary school aged) had great experiences with their teachers during lockdown. The level of interaction/feedback was great by all accounts.

khalessi

joe40 wrote: »

I don't doubt your expertise, definitely better than mine. So if this was too complex why propose this system in the first place.

Did the government, and hatheir advisers not realize that organizing a database based on occupation was near impossible.

Regarding teachers, the government had a minimum of 3 databses to choose from. The Teaching Council - all teachers need a number to teach, Dept of Ed payroll, Revenue.