Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

Tell me how

osarusan wrote: »

Maybe, but those arguing that this is an example of systemic racism still have to argue their case, rather than just assert it. I've never seen any evidence presented of either direct or systemic racism playing a part in the killing.


Just because a crime happens and there is a difference between the perpetrator and the victim (different skin colour, sex, nationality, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc), that doesn't mean the crime occurred because of, or the perpetrator was motivated by, that difference.


It's a possiblity, for sure, but the argument still needs to be made.

Two questions?

1. Do you think systemic racism could ever exist in any organisation?
2. If yes, what form of evidence do you think would have to be present for you to believe that it played a factor in the incident that led to GF's death?

Mic 1972

Deleted User wrote: »

:rolleyes: You're involved in topics on a regular basis where you get annoyed by any highlighting of racism. Eg you're the type of person who would be annoyed by the statement that systemic racism is an issue in the US police force. So shout that you're the biggest advocate against racism etc. It's just not very visible in your posts.

Being against racism also means being against the systemic racism argument, which is basically a fancy term for racism against white people

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that's where opinions differ. I find you making this or even allowing the implication that this was a racist murder ultimately more disgusting.

Racism is a huge part of my life and something I am passionate about and something I advocate against.

Can I go back to this and ask, how do you advocate against racism?

I ask because you were against footballers kneeling to call attention to racism, you were against BLM protests throughout last year calling attention to racism.

So what form of advocacy do you do that I presume you think others should do?

Mic 1972

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Being against racism also means being against the systemic racism argument, which is basically a fancy term for racism against white people

Sure thing Mic.... White people are really struggling due to racism. :rolleyes:

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

:rolleyes: You're involved in topics on a regular basis where you get annoyed by any highlighting of racism. Eg you're the type of person who would be annoyed by the statement that systemic racism is an issue in the US police force. So shout that you're the biggest advocate against racism etc. It's just not very visible in your posts.

Roll you eyes all you want Michael.

I'm annoyed that the death of Floyd being labelled incorrectly as racist would have a knock-on effect in Ireland of nkenchos death also being used as an example of racism.

All the while, actual racism is swept under the carpet, allowed and tolerated because it isn't popular or in the news.

I ****ing hate when your type of racism is highlighted. I genuinely do. The type that is begging to be accepted. The type that makes anyone who isn't white a victim. The one that makes every white person the recipient of privilege.

You're right. I ****ing hate that.

Racism exists and is disgusting. But a lot of it comes from your side of the aisle, knowingly or not.

Being told that you are a victim constantly is sometimes just as bad as being told you are inferior rarely.

Mic 1972

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure thing Mic.... White people are really struggling due to racism. :rolleyes:

Critical race theory says hi

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure thing Mic.... White people are really struggling due to racism. :rolleyes:

Yeah mic. Non whites are the victims. Jeeze.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Roll you eyes all you want Michael.

I'm annoyed that the death of Floyd being labelled incorrectly as racist would have a knock-on effect in Ireland of nkenchos death also being used as an example of racism.

All the while, actual racism is swept under the carpet, allowed and tolerated because it isn't popular or in the news.

I ****ing hate when your type of racism is highlighted. I genuinely do. The type that is begging to be accepted. The type that makes anyone who isn't white a victim. The one that makes every white person the recipient of privilege.

You're right. I ****ing hate that.

Racism exists and is disgusting. But a lot of it comes from your side of the aisle, knowingly or not.

Being told that you are a victim constantly is sometimes just as bad as being told you are inferior rarely.

One lunged at armed police officers and was shot in self defence.

Ones neck was knelt on for 10 minutes even when no pulse was present and had told the officer he couldn't breath.

Two totally different things.

Tell me how

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Critical race theory says hi

Can you explain what Critical Race Theory is, in your words? Thanks.

osarusan

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think systemic racism could ever exist in any organisation?

Yes.

Tell me how wrote: »

If yes, what form of evidence do you think would have to be present for you to believe that it played a factor in the incident that led to GF's death?

This is the heart of the matter.

And i think it's an almost impossible question to answer in this case. But one thing you'd look for is that when all other factors are equal, black people are still more likely to suffer (be arrested, be found guilty,be shot, be killed, etc) in certain situations than others. You'd want to use statistics and establish a pattern.

Scenarios such as this - slow asphyxiation while under police restraint - are mercifully so rare that I think establishing such a pattern is extremely difficult. In fact, the only similar incident I can think of that was captured on film was Tony Timpa, who was white.

Now I have questions for you:

1. Are you arguing that systemic racism played a role in Chauvin's killing of Floyd?

2. If yes, what evidence do you offer to support that argument?

Timberrrrrrrr

Tell me how wrote: »

Can you explain what Critical Race Theory is, in your words? Thanks.

I'd say there is some frantic Googling going on right about now

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Can I go back to this and ask, how do you advocate against racism?

I ask because you were against footballers kneeling to call attention to racism, you were against BLM protests throughout last year calling attention to racism.

So what form of advocacy do you do that I presume you think others should do?

I don't treat others differently based on their skin colour.

I don't advocate for special treatment based on skin colour.

I believe that everyone to have the same opportunity regardless of skin colour.

I encourage inclusivity based on merit not on skin colour.

I don't encourage non white people to perceive themselves as victims

I oppose any white person who deems themselves as better or more privileged than any non white people.

I don't think that every white on black crime is a crime based or steeped in racism.

I don't immediately assume racism as the most probable cause.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

One lunged at armed police officers and was shot in self defence.

Ones neck was knelt on for 10 minutes even when no pulse was present and had told the officer he couldn't breath.

Two totally different things.

I agree. Completely different.

Yet a large cohort of people claimed that both were examples of racist policing and were linked somehow.

I agree. Hugely different.

Timberrrrrrrr

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I'd say there is some frantic Googling going on right about now

We've got the true advocates against racism here.

Tell me how

osarusan wrote: »

Scenarios such as this - slow asphyxiation while under police restraint - are mercifully so rare that I think establishing such a pattern is extremely difficult. In fact, the only similar incident I can think of that was captured on film was Tony Timpa, who was white.

You didn't hear of the Eric Garner incident?

osarusan wrote: »

Now I have questions for you:

1. Are you arguing that systemic racism played a role in Chauvin's killing of Floyd?

2. If yes, what evidence do you offer to support that argument?

1 - I'm not saying definitively yes, but I think it is possible/likely.
2 - The ambivalence with which Chauvin carried himself throughout the incident, hands in pockets, no concern that his actions were being recorded or watched by so many bystanders. 8 minutes is a long time. Something led to Derek Chauvin doing what he did for those 8 minutes and not thinking it was a problem.

(I'm aware his superiors testified that he behaved contrary to recommended dept practices but I can not look past his comfort with what he was doing for such a long time and wonder what led him to think that it was not a problem)

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't treat others differently based on their skin colour.

I don't advocate for special treatment based on skin colour.

I believe that everyone to have the same opportunity regardless of skin colour.

I encourage inclusivity based on merit not on skin colour.

I don't encourage non white people to perceive themselves as victims

I oppose any white person who deems themselves as better or more privileged than any non white people.

I don't think that every white on black crime is a crime based or steeped in racism.

I don't immediately assume racism as the most probable cause.

None of which advocates against racism

cdeb

Tell me how wrote: »

1 - I'm not saying definitively yes, but I think it is possible/likely.
2 - The ambivalence with which Chauvin carried himself throughout the incident, hands in pockets, no concern that his actions were being recorded or watched by so many bystanders. 8 minutes is a long time. Something led to Derek Chauvin doing what he did for those 8 minutes and not thinking it was a problem.

Innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental cornerstone of Western justice systems.

The points you've outlined in (2) above have nothing at all to do with race. Chauvin could just be a prick. I doubt a psychopath would get into the police, but I would expect a psychopath to behave in that kind of way too.

Are you really ok judging someone guilty of being a racist on no tangible evidence? That hardly seems fair or reasonable.

Incidentally, you can add Timothy Coffman (who was white) to the list of people killed by asphyxiation by the US police.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't treat others differently based on their skin colour.

I don't advocate for special treatment based on skin colour.

I believe that everyone to have the same opportunity regardless of skin colour.

I encourage inclusivity based on merit not on skin colour.

I don't encourage non white people to perceive themselves as victims

I oppose any white person who deems themselves as better or more privileged than any non white people.

I don't think that every white on black crime is a crime based or steeped in racism.

I don't immediately assume racism as the most probable cause.

You said you advocate against racism, what you have listed are beliefs or views that indicate you are not racist. But not that you advocate against racism which would be to express the above views, and more specifically, to call a halt to views that are in opposition to yours in a public manner (ie one where you can be identified and observed for doing so).

So do you advocate against racism, or just belief that it is wrong and that you yourself do not practice it? Either is fine, you don't have to answer to me or anyone else on here, I'm just curious as to where exactly you stand given what you have said and because of your opposition on here to people who do publicly call for an end to racism (BLM protest attendees and kneeling footballers for example).

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

None of which advocates against racism

They all actually do.

Unless you want to give a more detailed rebuttal to my post rather than an incorrect one liner, there is a racism thread where we can discuss this further. I look forward to seeing you there.

osarusan

Tell me how wrote: »

You didn't hear of the Eric Garner incident?

Actually yeah, I had completely forgotten that.

Tell me how wrote: »

1 - I'm not saying definitively yes, but I think it is possible/likely.

I think it's possible too. To say it's likely, I need some kind of argument or evidence.

Tell me how wrote: »

2 - The ambivalence with which Chauvin carried himself throughout the incident, hands in pockets, no concern that his actions were being recorded or watched by so many bystanders. 8 minutes is a long time. Something led to Derek Chauvin doing what he did for those 8 minutes and not thinking it was a problem.

'Something', yes. But that something could just as easily be that he's an equal opportunity allround scumbag. 'Something' caused those police officers to sit on Tony Timpa and taunt him as he died. Maybe it's the same 'something', maybe it's different.


But as always, the onus is on those making a claim to support it.

Tell me how

cdeb wrote: »

Innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental cornerstone of Western justice systems.

The points you've outlined in (2) above have nothing at all to do with race. Chauvin could just be a prick. I doubt a psychopath would get into the police, but I would expect a psychopath to behave in that kind of way too.

Are you really ok judging someone guilty of being a racist on no tangible evidence? That hardly seems fair or reasonable.

Do you think racist acts are only racist if there is physical evidence to irrefutably confirm it?

It's more of the 'don't ask, don't tell' type instruction which would be encouraging for racists to actually here being advised.

cdeb

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think racist acts are only racist if there is physical evidence to irrefutably confirm it?

But without any evidence, how do you distinguish between racist acts and non-racist acts?

Do you just make your own assumption based on what suits you?

That's why we need evidence before making major accusations like you've made.

bewareofthedog

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think racist acts are only racist if there is physical evidence to irrefutably confirm it?

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

You said you advocate against racism, what you have listed are beliefs or views that indicate you are not racist. But not that you advocate against racism which would be to express the above views, and more specifically, to call a halt to views that are in opposition to yours in a public manner (ie one where you can be identified and observed for doing so).

So do you advocate against racism, or just belief that it is wrong and that you yourself do not practice it? Either is fine, you don't have to answer to me or anyone else on here, I'm just curious as to where exactly you stand given what you have said and because of your opposition on here to people who do publicly call for an end to racism (BLM protest attendees and kneeling footballers for example).

Well as I've said previously on a different thread, my daughter isn't white, which gives me an insight into the frequent racism she experiences on a near daily basis. I often have to confront other children, and parents of children who feel it ok to make fun of her.

I also have to confront parents and children who patronise her because of her ethnicity and make her feel like she should feel victimised.

It's a horrible balancing act and to be honest, she gets more upset about being seen as a victim than she does as when she actually "is" the victim of racism.

I am heavily involved in the PAC in our locality and am looking into other ways I can get involved. My local football team has an anti racist initiative and I am involved with them.

My focus is on my family and not the community at large if I am being brutally honest, but I do my level best to combat racim in all its forms.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think racist acts are only racist if there is physical evidence to irrefutably confirm it? .

I'm sure there are racists who don't give any proof. It still doesn't give you the right to call them one.

I mean, what's to stop anyone calling anyone else a paedophile? They've no evidence but, hey, they might be.

Tell me how

cdeb wrote: »

But without any evidence, how do you distinguish between racist acts and non-racist acts?

Do you just make your own assumption based on what suits you?

That's why we need evidence before making major accusations like you've made.

Sigh, what major accusations have I made? This is a thread in an online forum discussing a very active current affairs topic which has influenced the occurrence of several other very active current affairs topics. Stop making it sound like I just pulled something from thin air.

That aside, to answer the premise of your post, sometimes, you can't, but you look at the reaction of those on all sides of the arguments (and the bigger picture) to determine are things generally moving towards a better place, for everyone involved, or are unacceptable behaviours being passed off as being inconsequential.

GF and Chauvin are significant because they were another incident in a long line of incidents which gave rise to outrage amongst black communities who feel that they are not treated fairly or equally by people who are supposed to treat them in this way.
We will never know definitively what the root cause was, but if we are progressing (we the collective societies in which these events are happening) are progressing, they will happen less and less.

And I know some people are going to point to crime in black areas and say the police have to act like this, and others are going to say race is always turned in to an issue when it is a black person involved with police, but as long as others can point to increase incidents of them being targeted excessively, or prejudicially then you can't say racism definitively isn't a factor any more than I can say it is.

But already I bet that some sergeants have warned their people to not bring another GF incident to his door and to be aware that they are being watched and filmed at all times, and ultimately, that should be a positive thing even if they don't put put a white board with the message 'Don't be racist' when saying this to their officers.

cdeb

Tell me how wrote: »

Sigh, what major accusations have I made? Stop making it sound like I just pulled something from thin air.

You're saying that Chauvin is a racist, or was racially motivated in his treatment of Floyd. Do you not think that's a major accusation? I do. It's a nasty thing to say about someone if you have no evidence of it.

And you pretty much have pulled that accusation from thin air. Your long post again contains no evidence at all to back up the suggestion that Floyd's death was racially motivated.

The problem I have with that is that if you focus on the wrong thing - and in this case, race appears to be the wrong thing, absent of any evidence to the contrary - you miss the real issues. In this case, that appears to be police training, which appears to be woeful in the US.

But how are you going to fix the real problem if you think the real problem is something else? You can't.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm sure there are racists who don't give any proof. It still doesn't give you the right to call them one.

I mean, what's to stop anyone calling anyone else a paedophile? They've no evidence but, hey, they might be.

How many incidents are there where people are just called racist out of thin air? I'm sure it has happened, but how many become a talking point or are done so with no basis of any logic behind the accusation?

I just happen to think seeing an officer kneel on someone for 8 minutes as the life drained out of them with a complete lack of concern or empathy as to what was going as enough of a reason to ask the question as to what motivated him to behave in this way.

I end up in a lot of the same conversations on here as you do, people have plenty opportunity to accuse someone of being a racist should they just want to throw that out there, but it doesn't generally happen does it.

cdeb

Tell me how wrote: »

How many incidents are there where people are just called racist out of thin air? I'm sure it has happened, but how many become a talking point or are done so with no basis of any logic behind the accusation?

You're doing it right now so far as I can see.

Tell me how

cdeb wrote: »

You're saying that Chauvin is a racist, or was racially motivated in his treatment of Floyd. Do you not think that's a major accusation? I do. It's a nasty thing to say about someone if you have no evidence of it.

And you pretty much have pulled that accusation from thin air. Your long post again contains no evidence at all to back up the suggestion that Floyd's death was racially motivated.

The problem I have with that is that if you focus on the wrong thing - and in this case, race appears to be the wrong thing, absent of any evidence to the contrary - you miss the real issues. In this case, that appears to be police training, which appears to be woeful in the US.

But how are you going to fix the real problem if you think the real problem is something else? You can't.

'Don't ask, don't tell' is the message you are giving here. It's a message racists would love to see gain prominence.

And I repeat, I'm not throwing an accusation out there, I'm discussing an active current affairs topic. You're making it sound like no one discussed race in relation to this issue in the 13 months since it happened.

But given you brought up police training, what do you think the BLM protesters who were protesting so much were calling for when they called for reform of current policing practices? The message has been that policing is not working in the best interests of society and yet cop defenders hijacked and focused on the defund message and turned that in to 'They don't want any police' because they knew that would be an easy line to target so as to dismiss the entire discussion.