Private school teachers prioritised for vaccinations

BettyS

First Up wrote: »

OK, I'll explain it more slowly for you.

The Beacon dispensed the vaccines; the HSE arranged for the people to turn up at the Beacon to get them. 200 of those people didn't turn up as expected so the vaccines were unused.


I presume the number of vials opened corresponded to the number of people the HSE had told the Beacon to expect.

Why crack open the vials all at once?

AndrewJRenko

First Up wrote: »

OK, I'll explain it more slowly for you.

The Beacon dispensed the vaccines; the HSE arranged for the people to turn up at the Beacon to get them. 200 of those people didn't turn up as expected so the vaccines were unused.


I presume the number of vials opened corresponded to the number of people the HSE had told the Beacon to expect.

That's quite different to your earlier claim that; "the HSE give back 5 vaccines", isn't it?

Do you think that maybe a professional, medical organisation could have found a different way to open the vials, in the light of the highly publicised issues in the press in previous weeks about the problems that arise when you open too many vials?

First Up

AndrewJRenko wrote:

That's quite different to your earlier claim that; "the HSE give back 5 vaccines", isn't it?

No it isn't.

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Do you think that maybe a professional, medical organisation could have found a different way to open the vials, in the light of the highly publicised issues in the press in previous weeks about the problems that arise when you open too many vials?

I'll defer to your expertise on vaccines on that one but the problems caused by opening too many vials are a lot smaller than opening too few.

First Up

BettyS wrote:

You seem to know a lot of specifics. Personally invested in the case?

No connection whatever.

AndrewJRenko

First Up wrote: »

No it isn't.

As a matter of fact, it is very different. As a matter of fact, the HSE didn't give back any vaccines to anyone in this case, regardless of your desperate attempts to spin blame away from the Beacon.

First Up wrote: »

I'll defer to your expertise on vaccines on that one but the problems caused by opening too many vials are a lot smaller than opening too few.

Do you think that maybe a professional, medical organisation could have found a different way to open the correct number of vials - not too many and not too few - in the light of the highly publicised issues in the press in previous weeks about the problems that arise when you open too many vials?

First Up

BettyS wrote:

Why crack open the vials all at once?

I don't know if they did. I'd have thought the idea is to keep people moving through the place so it would be a "just in time" system. But keeping numbers to a minimum, working with perishable vaccines and then having no shows makes for a complicated situation.

First Up

AndrewJRenko wrote:

As a matter of fact, it is very different. As a matter of fact, the HSE didn't give back any vaccines to anyone in this case, regardless of your desperate attempts to spin blame away from the Beacon.

Oh dear. OK, once again;

The HSE was responsible for producing the people to get the vaccines. The HSE told the Beacon to prepare for 1,269 but only 1,069 turned up because the HSE had double booked 200.

200 vaccines were left over and the HSE could only produce people to get 180 of those.

So yes, the HSE didn't give any vaccines back; they just left the Beacon holding them.

So when you are finished clutching at straws, would you tell us who was responsible for (a) causing the surplus vaccines and (b) making sure they didn't go to waste?

Hint - they weren't the same people.

AndrewJRenko

First Up wrote: »

I don't know if they did. I'd have thought the idea is to keep people moving through the place so it would be a "just in time" system. But keeping numbers to a minimum, working with perishable vaccines and then having no shows makes for a complicated situation.

These guys do heart surgery, cancer therapy, orthopaedic surgery every day of the week out there.

Do you think they should have been capable of managing the 'complicated situation' of vaccine vials?

AndrewJRenko

First Up wrote: »

Oh dear. OK, once again;

The HSE was responsible for producing the people to get the vaccines. The HSE told the Beacon to prepare for 1,269 but only 1,069 turned up because the HSE had double booked 200.

200 vaccines were left over and the HSE could only produce people to get 180 of those.

So yes, the HSE didn't give any vaccines back; they just left the Beacon holding them.

Awful shame that it took so long to confirm that you were spoofing on this point.

First Up wrote: »

So when you are finished clutching at straws, would you tell us who was responsible for (a) causing the surplus vaccines and (b) making sure they didn't go to waste?

Hint - they weren't the same people.

The ones who caused the surplus vaccines were the ones who opened the vials without knowing that they would be used. Really, think of all the drug therapies done in the Beacon every day, including complex chemotherapy and radiotherapy, and tell me how hard it would have been to open the vials when they're needed.

As for making sure they didn't go to waste, they had so, so many other options than the teacher buddies of the CEO.

First Up

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Do you think they should have been capable of managing the 'complicated situation' of vaccine vials?

A thousand people moving through a hospital and observing social distancing while dispensing a perishable vaccine and monitoring for adverse reactions - while adapting the system for 20% no shows.

Yeah, child's play for the Boards experts.

First Up

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Awful shame that it took so long to confirm that you were spoofing on this point.

Not spoofing; it just took longer to find how to explain it to you.

AndrewJRenko wrote:

The ones who caused the surplus vaccines were the ones who opened the vials without knowing that they would be used. Really, think of all the drug therapies done in the Beacon every day, including complex chemotherapy and radiotherapy, and tell me how hard it would have been to open the vials when they're needed.

Your logistical skills in complex medical environments during pandemics must be in high demand. Amazing you still have time to deliver lectures on Boards.

AndrewJRenko

First Up wrote: »

Not spoofing; it just took longer to find how to explain it to you.

You were spoofing when you said; "the HSE give back 5 vaccines, then give back 15 more".

There's no explanation necessary. The HSE did not give back any vaccines to the Beacon. This was a deliberate spoof, designed to try to push blame for the Beacon's screw up onto the HSE.

First Up wrote: »

A thousand people moving through a hospital and observing social distancing while dispensing a perishable vaccine and monitoring for adverse reactions - while adapting the system for 20% no shows.

Yeah, child's play for the Boards experts.

First Up wrote: »

Your logistical skills in complex medical environments during pandemics must be in high demand. Amazing you still have time to deliver lectures on Boards.

It's not my skills or expertise that is at question here. It is the Beacon's skill and expertise. If they didn't have the skills to run a vaccination centre, they shouldn't have participated. That includes having a backup list ready for the very predictable scenario of having small number of vaccines left over.

If they did have the skills, then it looks like someone allowed this situation to develop.

First Up

AndrewJRenko wrote:

It's not my skills or expertise that is at question here. It is the Beacon's skill and expertise. If they didn't have the skills to run a vaccination centre, they shouldn't have participated. That includes having a backup list ready for the very predictable scenario of having small number of vaccines left over.

20% is not a small number. You are doing hand stands to absolve the HSE of any responsibility, despite them having created the situation by twice failing to deliver the numbers they had told the Beacon to prepare for.

I understand how surplus vaccines ended up in St Gerard's. It was a poor decision and aspects of it deserve to be investigated but there is a lot more to investigate (and rectify) about this than the last couple of hours.

steddyeddy

First Up wrote: »

20% is not a small number. You are doing hand stands to absolve the HSE of any responsibility, despite them having created the situation by twice failing to deliver the numbers they had told the Beacon to prepare for.

I understand how surplus vaccines ended up in St Gerard's. It was a poor decision and aspects of it deserve to be investigated but there is a lot more to investigate (and rectify) about this than the last couple of hours.

The HSE dropped the ball as I said previously. 17% is a low number for drop outs in any appointment system. The Beacon should have had an extensive list based on priority as was discussed after previous scandal.

First Up

steddyeddy wrote:

The HSE dropped the ball as I said previously. 17% is a low number for drop outs in any appointment system. The Beacon should have had an extensive list based on priority as was discussed after previous scandal.

Getting a precious vaccine against a global pandemic isn't just another appointment. We know the no shows were almost entirely due to the double bookings that seem to be plaguing the whole HSE system. (600 at Citywest).

Could the Beacon access a HSE database that ranked the national waiting list or does each vaccine dispenser make their own?

I can imagine the fuss if the Beacon had given the surplus vaccines to private patients in their own hospital.

FishOnABike

First Up wrote: »

20% is not a small number. You are doing hand stands to absolve the HSE of any responsibility, despite them having created the situation by twice failing to deliver the numbers they had told the Beacon to prepare for.

I understand how surplus vaccines ended up in St Gerard's. It was a poor decision and aspects of it deserve to be investigated but there is a lot more to investigate (and rectify) about this than the last couple of hours.

City West managed a similar, if not greater, no show rate without having 'excess' vaccines they needed to find people for with less than two hours before vaccines expired.

There is no complicated advance reconstitution process needed for the Astra Zeneca they are ready to use. You simply take the vial out of the fridge and wipe the top with a sterile alcohol wipe.

Once you break the seal by piercing with the needle / syringe to draw the first dose you then have six hours to use the ten dose vial.

If you don't have patients to vaccinate you simply don't take the vial out of the fridge in the first place, let alone four hours beforehand as would be implied in the case of the Beacon by their rush to find suitable candidates to vaccinate before the vaccine expired.

City West managed a similar, if not greater, no show rate without a similar crisis. Were they more capable or just more conscientious?

saabsaab

First Up wrote: »

I don't know if they did. I'd have thought the idea is to keep people moving through the place so it would be a "just in time" system. But keeping numbers to a minimum, working with perishable vaccines and then having no shows makes for a complicated situation.

They are opened in advance for the estimated number to be administered so to reach room temperature from freezing. It can take up to 8 hours depending on the vaccine used. Can't just open as you go along..

FishOnABike

saabsaab wrote: »

They are opened in advance for the estimated number to be administered so to reach room temperature from freezing. It can take up to 8 hours depending on the vaccine used. Can't just open as you go along..

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca

Astra Zeneca vaccine is stored in a normal fridge, it is not frozen. It doesn't need to be opened in advance or thawed for hours before use. Best practice would be to only remove from the fridge when ready to administer.

RandomViewer

FishOnABike wrote: »

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca/information-for-healthcare-professionals-on-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca

Astra Zeneca vaccine is stored in a normal fridge, it is not frozen. It doesn't need to be opened in advance or thawed for hours before use. Best practice would be to only remove from the fridge when ready to administer.

It can be stored at 30degrees for 6 hours after first needle prick so no where near as volatile as some seem to be trying to pretend,

expectationlost

doesn't it require a complaint to the police for them to investigate theft or fraud, doesn't the person who property it was have to claim which would be the HSE.

JP Liz V1

caveat emptor wrote: »

It's almost as if there is a concerted attempt to justify this. Weird opinion to hold. Everyone knows it was wrong. No justifying it.

CEO should be punished, held accountable, it was thief

Atlantic Dawn

expectationlost wrote: »

doesn't it require a complaint to the police for them to investigate theft or fraud

It does but additionally unless these unapproved people are properly registered on HSE systems they will not have vaccination passports issued and so from a day to day living with Covid point of view will be worthless.

paulski999

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

It does but additionally unless these unapproved people are properly registered on HSE systems they will not have vaccination passports issued and so from a day to day living with Covid point of view will be worthless.

So has it been reported as to what happens with the 2nd dose for 20 teachers? Will they get them ahead of needier others or will they go out on strike? :rolleyes:

khalessi

paulski999 wrote: »

So has it been reported as to what happens with the 2nd dose for 20 teachers? Will they get them ahead of needier others or will they go out on strike? :rolleyes:

Why would the 20 of them go out on strike?

They will get second dose when due.

Cluedo Monopoly

paulski999 wrote: »

So has it been reported as to what happens with the 2nd dose for 20 teachers? Will they get them ahead of needier others or will they go out on strike? :rolleyes:

12 weeks until 2nd dose. They will probably be in summer holidays.

Princess Calla

paulski999 wrote: »

So has it been reported as to what happens with the 2nd dose for 20 teachers? Will they get them ahead of needier others or will they go out on strike? :rolleyes:

I'd be more annoyed if they didn't get the second vaccine.

My understanding with vaccines administered over a time , is you need all doses for them to be effective. So my not getting the second dose it will render the first dose pretty much void.

It'll be the ultimate walk of shame though.

Cluedo Monopoly

Princess Calla wrote: »

I'd be more annoyed if they didn't get the second vaccine.

My understanding with vaccines administered over a time , is you need all doses for them to be effective. So my not getting the second dose it will render the first dose pretty much void.

It'll be the ultimate walk of shame though.

It certainly will be.

paulski999

khalessi wrote: »

Why would the 20 of them go out on strike?

They will get second dose when due.

It’s been reported that Teachers Unions are contemplating strike action due to the re-jigging of cohorts. The irony of the 20 going out on strike...

So you reckon they will / should get their 2nd jab ahead of others more in need? The efficacy increases the longer before the 2nd jab is given, so IMO bottom of the list, the one thing we do know they won’t be sneaking into the Beacon to get it....

khalessi

paulski999 wrote: »

It’s been reported that Teachers Unions are contemplating strike action due to the re-jigging of cohorts. The irony of the 20 going out on strike...

So you reckon they will / should get their 2nd jab ahead of others more in need? The efficacy increases the longer before the 2nd jab is given, so IMO bottom of the list, the one thing we do know they won’t be sneaking into the Beacon to get it....

In the Coombe situation they got the second dose as scheduled

jahalpin

Deleted User wrote: »

20 teachers vaccinated?

Hard to see that being so awful tbh

State employees skipping the queue like this should be fired, they knew well that the Beacon did not have permission to do this