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Private school teachers prioritised for vaccinations

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    #2522
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    It's almost as if there is a concerted attempt to justify this. Weird opinion to hold. Everyone knows it was wrong. No justifying it.


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    #2523
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    First Up wrote: »
    Yes, I'm still pointing out the obvious.

    But it's not obvious. No one is saying they should have been wasted.


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    #2524
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    caveat emptor wrote:
    It's almost as if there is a conceded attempt to justify this. Weird opinion to hold. Everyone knows it was wrong. No justifying it.


    I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

    The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

    The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.


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    #2525
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    First Up wrote: »
    I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

    The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

    The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

    In fairness the investigation will show whatever they want to be shown.


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    #2526
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    caveat emptor wrote:
    In fairness the investigation will show whatever they want to be shown.


    Ah, another open mind on Boards.


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    #2527
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    First Up wrote: »
    Ah, another open mind on Boards.

    How open is your mind? most people know full well that paid for, internal investigation by a corporate lawyer is nothing more than window dressing.


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    #2528
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    First Up wrote: »
    I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

    The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

    The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

    But why pick that school....what was/is so special about that school.

    If you want to go the school route why not pick a school on your doorstep.

    Contact details are easy to find, any secretary /personal assistant worth their salt would have them within minutes....you can walk to some of the local schools within minutes.

    So again leaving the emotive stuff about cancer patients being bypassed aside, I ask the question what was/is so special about this school that it was chosen?

    I will follow up with the question what was/is so special about the 20 teachers chosen and why the secrecy around it?


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    #2529
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    First Up wrote: »
    I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

    The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

    The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

    So cancer patients attending and living near the Beacon were lying about being passed over?


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    #2530
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,376 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    First Up wrote: »
    The Beacon knew nothing about double bookings. It seems the HSE only realised it after the Beacon reported the no shows.

    Anyone dispensing vaccines will do so as quickly as possible, which means having them ready. Some no shows may be inevitable but 200 is outside the statistical range.


    City West had approx 500 no shows out of 1300 scheduled vaccinations but didn't have to find teachers in their CEO's children's school to give 'excess' doses to.

    HSE chief executive Paul Reid has denied that any doses were wasted: "You don't go opening all these vials, and then have a scurry around at the end of the day to use the vials, you organised the vials, and the administration of the vials as your day is progressing so you don't go piercing vials for 572 people, you do it as a is progressing so it wouldn't be all that waste. "

    Having them ready is as simple as removing a vial from the fridge and wiping the top of the vial with an alcohol swab.

    The vial needs to be used within six hours of the seal being broken when it is pierced by needle drawing the first dose from the vial.

    The no show rate should have been discernable during the course of the day. Unless you want to have 'excess' doses at the end of the day, there is no reason why vials should be lying around for approaching six hours.


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    #2531
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,576 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    First Up wrote: »
    I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

    The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

    The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.


    So let me get this right, you are okay with the CEO of Beacon bypassing the guidelines he was supposed to follow, miss out local teachers that would have been just as worthy to receive the vaccines and are probably closer to the hospital to receive their dose and decide to offer the vaccines to the private school where his children go to, all because the HSE made double bookings?

    Because had he given the vaccines to local teachers where he had no involvement it would have still been a breach of guidelines, but at least it would have been understood. What doesn't seem to compute is not that he found teachers for these vaccines, its that he found teachers at the fee paying school where his children go to. That is the problem here, not that the HSE screwed up but the decision he took on who would be worthy of these vaccines.


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    #2532
    pjohnson
    Registered Users Posts: 23,234 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    First Up wrote: »
    The Beacon knew nothing about double bookings. It seems the HSE only realised it after the Beacon reported the no shows.

    Anyone dispensing vaccines will do so as quickly as possible, which means having them ready. Some no shows may be inevitable but 200 is outside the statistical range.
    First Up wrote: »
    Yes, I'm still pointing out the obvious.

    Ehhh for someone "pointing out the obvious" you dont appear to have realised that in order to actually dispense them as quickly as possible would mean that it would go to the people nearest the location who had yet to recieve one.


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    #2533
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Princess Calla wrote:
    But why pick that school....what was/is so special about that school.


    If you want to go the school route why not pick a school on your doorstep.

    A fair question. Expedience may have been part of it - knowing who to call etc - but it obviously suited the CEO too.

    It was a short cut to a solution when time was short. Enough for the permanently outraged but let's see what else McCague turns up.


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    #2534
    caveat emptor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,134 ✭✭✭caveat emptor


    First Up wrote: »
    A fair question. Expedience may have been part of it - knowing who to call etc - but it obviously suited the CEO too.

    It was a short cut to a solution when time was short. Enough for the permanently outraged but let's see what else McCague turns up.

    He'll turn up what he is told to turn up. That's the point of paying for an investigation. Slight conflict of interest.


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    #2535
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    pjohnson wrote:
    Ehhh for someone "pointing out the obvious" you dont appear to have realised that in order to actually dispense them as quickly as possible would mean that it would go to the people nearest the location who had yet to recieve one.


    Closest doesn't necessarily mean quickest. St Gerard's to the Beacon is about 10 minutes. How much faster than that could other schools have been contacted and organised for vaccination?


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    #2536
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,687 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    First Up wrote: »
    A fair question. Expedience may have been part of it - knowing who to call etc - but it obviously suited the CEO too.

    It was a short cut to a solution when time was short. Enough for the permanently outraged but let's see what else McCague turns up.

    I doubt you actually believe what you post.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



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    #2537
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    First Up wrote: »
    Closest doesn't necessarily mean quickest. St Gerard's to the Beacon is about 10 minutes. How much faster than that could other schools have been contacted and organised for vaccination?

    Well I think most practically minded people would think staff in the school I can see from my office window, will arrive quicker than staff from a school a motorway drive away.

    So why did he pick this particular school.... applying the "reasonableness test" what would a completely impartial person* do....pick the school they can physically see or pick one miles away?

    *Leaving aside a completely impartial person would just follow the given guidelines.


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    #2538
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote:
    I doubt you actually believe what you post.


    I'm happy to see you are capable of doubt. Your usual style is dogged certainty.


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    #2539
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Princess Calla wrote:
    Well I think most practically minded people would think staff in the school I can see from my office window, will arrive quicker than staff from a school a motorway drive away.

    There's apartments even closer. Why not them if distance was the only consideration?

    The had less than two hours until the vaccines expired to decide what to do with them. We have been dissecting their decision for a week. Most posters here have made up their minds. I'll wait until the whole picture is clear.


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    #2540
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,459 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    First Up wrote: »
    I'm not trying to justify it but I dispute it being described as corruption or the emotive stuff about cancer patients being by-passed.

    The Beacon made an expedient decision after being let down twice by the HSE.

    The investigation will show if it was anything more than poor judgement under pressure.

    There should have been no pressure involved. This scenario was entirely predictable, and if you're going to take on responsibility for vaccination, that includes responsibility for dealing with a small number of left overs. This should have been part of the plan, and not a pressure situation.

    First Up wrote: »
    Closest doesn't necessarily mean quickest. St Gerard's to the Beacon is about 10 minutes. How much faster than that could other schools have been contacted and organised for vaccination?

    The school that is three minutes walk away could clearly have been done faster, but weren't chosen for obvious reasons.


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    #2541
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    There should have been no pressure involved. This scenario was entirely predictable, and if you're going to take on responsibility for vaccination, that includes responsibility for dealing with a small number of left overs. This should have been part of the plan, and not a pressure situation.


    200 no shows; then the HSE give back 5 vaccines, then give back 15 more. One hour 45 minutes before they expire.

    A pity they didn't call you for advice.


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    #2542
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    First Up wrote: »
    200 no shows; then the HSE give back 5 vaccines, then give back 15 more. One hour 45 minutes before they expire.

    A pity they didn't call you for advice.

    In fairness we appear to have a number of world class health care administrators posting here , the future for the hse is bright !


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    #2543
    Princess Calla
    Registered Users Posts: 5,802 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    First Up wrote: »
    There's apartments even closer. Why not them if distance was the only consideration?

    The had less than two hours until the vaccines expired to decide what to do with them. We have been dissecting their decision for a week. Most posters here have made up their minds. I'll wait until the whole picture is clear.

    Exactly why didn't he pick them , or one of the local businesses , or the local dunnes.

    Why pick the school?, what was the advantage of picking a school miles away.

    Why break procedure and not follow guidelines?

    Why if you know there's an admin problem do you continue opening all the vials .....

    Why in his mind , was contacting that school the best course of action? What was the benefit of them getting vaccinated above everyone else?


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    #2544
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    I suspect all of those questions - and quite a few others - will have occurred to McCague.


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    #2545
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,459 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    First Up wrote: »
    200 no shows; then the HSE give back 5 vaccines, then give back 15 more. One hour 45 minutes before they expire.

    A pity they didn't call you for advice.

    The HSE didn't give back anything, as you well know. That's the second time that I've caught you trying to spin yarns about the HSE role.

    The Beacon were responsible for deciding how many vials were open.


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    #2546
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    First Up wrote: »
    200 no shows; then the HSE give back 5 vaccines, then give back 15 more. One hour 45 minutes before they expire.

    A pity they didn't call you for advice.

    Where are you getting an hour and 45minutes from? Its six hours at room temperature after the vial is opened, 10 doses to a vial, unopened vials can be stored in a standard fridge, seems to be some effort to conflate Pfizer and AZ here


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    #2547
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    The HSE didn't give back anything, as you well know. That's the second time that I've caught you trying to spin yarns about the HSE role.

    The Beacon were responsible for deciding how many vials were open.


    I previously summarised what I have learned from media reports - The Beacon was told to prepare to deliver 1,269 vaccines but 200 didn't turn up for their appointments. The HSE admitted they had double booked and undertook to find other users but left the Beacon holding 20, with time running out.

    If you have a different version of events, please share it here or better still, give it to Eugene McCague


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    #2548
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,459 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    First Up wrote: »
    I previously summarised what I have learned from media reports - The Beacon was told to prepare to deliver 1,269 vaccines but 200 didn't turn up for their appointments. The HSE admitted they had double booked and undertook to find other users but left the Beacon holding 20, with time running out.

    If you have a different version of events, please share it here or better still, give it to Eugene McCague

    Which confirms that;

    1) the HSE didn't give back anything, as you well know. [That's the second time that I've caught you trying to spin yarns about the HSE role]

    2) The Beacon were responsible for deciding how many vials were open.


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    #2549
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    RandomViewer wrote:
    Where are you getting an hour and 45minutes from? Its six hours at room temperature after the vial is opened, 10 doses to a vial, unopened vials can be stored in a standard fridge, seems to be some effort to conflate Pfizer and AZ here

    I bow to your superior expertise and knowledge of vaccines. According to the Beacon's statement that I read, there was one hour and 45 minutes left when they contacted St Gerard's. I don't know how things got to that point.

    Again, I expect all of this will be clear from the investigation.


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    #2550
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    1) the HSE didn't give back anything, as you well know. [That's the second time that I've caught you trying to spin yarns about the HSE role]
    OK, I'll explain it more slowly for you.

    The Beacon dispensed the vaccines; the HSE arranged for the people to turn up at the Beacon to get them. 200 of those people didn't turn up as expected so the vaccines were unused.
    AndrewJRenko wrote:
    2) The Beacon were responsible for deciding how many vials were open.
    I presume the number of vials opened corresponded to the number of people the HSE had told the Beacon to expect.


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    #2551
    BettyS
    Registered Users Posts: 689 ✭✭✭BettyS


    First Up wrote: »
    Closest doesn't necessarily mean quickest. St Gerard's to the Beacon is about 10 minutes. How much faster than that could other schools have been contacted and organised for vaccination?

    You seem to know a lot of specifics. Personally invested in the case?


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