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United Ireland Poll - please vote

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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Yes, I can imagine that. What's your point?

    There won't be a political party in the south supporting the partitionist agenda.

    Partitionists will have to depend on Peter Casey and Kevin Myers types while all the political parties will be coming up with proposals for a UI.
    It will be 'get on the train' or be left in the station time.

    No Irish political party will turn it's back on Unification. That's a big hill to die on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,528 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Zaph wrote: »
    I think if it gets to the point where there's a proper reasoned debate about a poll there'll be enough politicians who will realise that in pure economic terms a UI would be massively damaging. Then there will be no option but to have a proper discussion about it, unless they want to follow the UK government's lead where they lied to the electorate about Brexit. Having seen that mess, I don't think people here will accept being asked to vote on something without having the full facts.

    Spot on, pretty much nailed it with this post.

    Taxpayers won't want to pay extra tax.
    Social welfare recipients won't want benefits cut.

    Unless these things are worked out with the unicorns and rainbows paying for them, a border poll will be defeated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Zaph wrote: »
    I think if it gets to the point where there's a proper reasoned debate about a poll there'll be enough politicians who will realise that in pure economic terms a UI would be massively damaging. Then there will be no option but to have a proper discussion about it, unless they want to follow the UK government's lead where they lied to the electorate about Brexit. Having seen that mess, I don't think people here will accept being asked to vote on something without having the full facts.

    They won't lie, they will present it as an investment in our future. Northern Ireland as a part of an Irish state, not couched as a 'cost', in the same way as Munster or Connacht is not couched ever as a cost to us all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,651 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Zaph wrote: »
    Having seen that mess, I don't think people here will accept being asked to vote on something without having the full facts.

    But that's exactly what people would have to do. The GFA does not tell us what a UI would actually look like at all. That would all have to be worked out in the event it was voted for. At best, parties could campaign on what their vision for one would be, and those versions would differ drastically between the DUP and Sinn Fein. Other parties may do the arguably decent thing and not campaign on it at all.

    Not that it's surprising the GFA had nothing concrete about a UI as there's nothing in this regard that would have been satisfactory to all signatories.




  • dd973 wrote: »
    Reunification should be seen as an opportunity, a 6m plus population, the only Anglophone EU country, the possibility of High Speed Rail from Belfast to Dublin and Cork, proper motorway and rail links from Belfast to a Derry which will be more economically integrated with it's Donegal hinterland. It should be sold as a more enticing prospect than being 1/25th of a moribund U.K that the Scots want out of. The Scots getting independence would I believe reduce the rose tinted view of Britain that the PUL community have.

    Why would an IRA of any stripe exist post reunification either? That's one angle the DUP types never proffer when reunification is discussed.

    Absolutely. The North wouldn't be the basket case it is now.

    Many great towns and areas of England have been decimated over the decades, so what hope had a plot of land across the Irish Sea?

    As for the "We can't afford it, they're given 10 billion a year."

    1. The reason Westminster gives the north 10 billion a year is because they let it rot in the first place, much like they've left the north of England fall asunder.

    2. We wouldn't be coughing up 10 billion. Westminster and the EU would subsidise it for an agreed transition period.

    As part of a United Ireland, the North becomes infinitely more attractive to investors and becomes more 'self-sufficient'.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    briany wrote: »
    But that's exactly what people would have to do. The GFA does not tell us what a UI would actually look like at all. That would all have to be worked out in the event it was voted for. At best, parties could campaign on what their vision for one would be, and those versions would differ drastically between the DUP and Sinn Fein. Other parties may do the arguably decent thing and not campaign on it at all.

    Not that it's surprising the GFA had nothing concrete about a UI as there's nothing in this regard that would have been satisfactory to all signatories.

    The Irish government will be making the proposal in a border poll and framing the ballot 'question; whether that be a change to the constitution as the agreement to the GFA question was framed (we weren't asked about the GFA at all) or some other question.
    The Government will lead on what is proposed for a UI, they will be tasked with producing the facts and figures and changes...not political parties. Probably after a citizens assembly type process.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,914 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I feel a responsibility and I will vote for a UI. My vote is as valid as yours.
    Your selfishness does not infuriate me, it makes me sad actually. Where would you be had others not made sacrifices.

    LOL did you actually just try to compare yourself to those who fought and died for our independence?

    I would argue you're need to see a UI is also rooted in a perverse selfishness, in my opinion you and others like you just want to win the war, you don't care about the consequences for anyone involved and the ends justify the means.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    The UK is very precarious country. There is rising English and Scottish nation amongst the younger generations. This is the real elephant in the room for the UK. If Scotland leaves the UK, England will not be long behind. Where will this leave the North? Can't support themselves so would have to join the South. No such thing as a British citzen. but can you ever see those DUP supporters excepting they are Irish despite living on Ireland all their lives.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    ittakestwo wrote: »
    The UK is very precarious country. There is rising English and Scottish nation amongst the younger generations. This is the real elephant in the room for the UK. If Scotland leaves the UK, England will not be long behind. Where will this leave the North? Can't support themselves so would have to join the South. No such thing as a British citzen. but can you ever see those DUP supporters excepting they are Irish despite living on Ireland all their lives.

    That be perfect solution we could buy one-way tickets, we all be one big happy Republic...


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    The Irish government will be making the proposal in a border poll and framing the ballot 'question; whether that be a change to the constitution as the agreement to the GFA question was framed (we weren't asked about the GFA at all) or some other question.
    The Government will lead on what is proposed for a UI, they will be tasked with producing the facts and figures and changes...not political parties. Probably after a citizens assembly type process.

    I am sure the Irish Government there need be political reform if North come in with us, at the moment the North has 18 MPs and SF i think do not vote but this may have changed.
    If t fallows that we stay as per present numbers we have about 75 more TDs, i cannot see the Northern people standing for that.
    Interesting times ahead..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    almostover wrote: »
    Hate to break it to you, you're 1 man with 1 vote. Same as the rest of us when the border poll does happen.


    Im willing to bet that the other few million are just as worried about how much money is left in their own pockets after a UI :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    So a no-to-UI vote happens in the south. There will be a very serious political schism and the state's very legitimacy is called into question. The flag would no longer be appropriate, as would the anthem, the constitution would be defunct and so on.

    What then?


    A few bombs south of the border will soften everyones cough.
    It only takes one lunatic group to decide that that is the solution and we will feel the sharp end of it here.
    They havent gone away you know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,200 ✭✭✭hots


    If no major political party would be willing to campaign against a UI is there any way it doesn't happen? Brexit got through against clear logistical and economic negatives, and that had decent opposition in government, surely a UI would be the same?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Risteard81


    Free Ireland - not just “United Ireland". Ireland was united under English rule - typical anti-Republican pro-British Provo speak.

    The so-called "EU" has no place in a free Ireland either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭drdidlittle


    Brings it all back to an independent Northern Ireland state.
    50 years on their own feet. Then have a referendum...


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Brings it all back to an independent Northern Ireland state.
    50 years on their own feet. Then have a referendum...

    We are at this point because Northern Ireland as a 'state' has failed, it cannot govern itself, it requires an internationally binding agreement between two sovereign states in order to function.

    An 'independent' state is not viable therefore and creating one would be as irresponsible as partition was.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Voted no. I sympathise with the idea but currently, it's far too economically damaging. On top of that, incorporating a truculent and substantial ethnic minority against their will is going to be highly damaging and costly.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Voted no. I sympathise with the idea but currently, it's far too economically damaging. On top of that, incorporating a truculent and substantial ethnic minority against their will is going to be highly damaging and costly.


    I never even thought of it like that.
    Thats cruel actually.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I am just trying to think how I would feel if there was an official united Ireland tomorrow. Would I feel any different tomorrow morning than I did this morning? What actual difference would it make to my life?

    Its all a state of mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭mehico


    Voted no. I sympathise with the idea but currently, it's far too economically damaging. On top of that, incorporating a truculent and substantial ethnic minority against their will is going to be highly damaging and costly.

    Would it not also be damaging to keep an ethnic majority within a state against their will?


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,252 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    mehico wrote: »
    Would it not also be damaging to keep an ethnic majority within a state against their will?

    Phrasing. Nationalists weren't kept in the state, they could have left just as Unionists could leave NI for mainland Britain should Irish unification happen. Margaret Thatcher famously wondered why they didn't in the eighties. Ultimately, partition was done to serve Unionists. They initially wanted four counties but the proposed entity was deemed unviable so two more counties were added.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I am just trying to think how I would feel if there was an official united Ireland tomorrow. Would I feel any different tomorrow morning than I did this morning? What actual difference would it make to my life?

    Its all a state of mind.


    Find out what your tax rate the year after is going to be first :)
    You might feel different at that point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    mehico wrote: »
    Would it not also be damaging to keep an ethnic majority within a state against their will?

    Apparently they don't and never have mattered. There are people fervently trying to construct a veto for Unionists to this day, even though the removal of that veto in the Anglo Irish Agreement was pivotal to achieving peace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,528 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    A few bombs south of the border will soften everyones cough.
    It only takes one lunatic group to decide that that is the solution and we will feel the sharp end of it here.
    They havent gone away you know.

    We already have the Taoiseach and Tanaiste under 24-hour protection because of credible death threats from loyalists. That is before we even contemplate a border poll.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    blanch152 wrote: »
    We already have the Taoiseach and Tanaiste under 24-hour protection because of credible death threats from loyalists. That is before we even contemplate a border poll.


    Nothing concentrates the mind more than a big bang and smoke that can be seen all across a city. Death threats have nothing on that kind of exposure. And these guys know how to do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    We already have the Taoiseach and Tanaiste under 24-hour protection because of credible death threats from loyalists. That is before we even contemplate a border poll.

    So you advocate bowing to some terrorists?
    I believe the threats are regarding the NI protocol, something signed up to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,290 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    We already have the Taoiseach and Tanaiste under 24-hour protection because of credible death threats from loyalists. That is before we even contemplate a border poll.

    Bizarrely ironic that senior members (Edwin Poots) of the party FG were applauding at their Annual conferences (DUP) are caught inventing threats and treating them as 'credible' to try and get their way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    I am just trying to think how I would feel if there was an official united Ireland tomorrow. Would I feel any different tomorrow morning than I did this morning? What actual difference would it make to my life?

    Its all a state of mind.

    I think the world, or much of it, will celebrate unification. I would expect supporting US and EU investment. I would expect and hope the NI parties coming in would disrupt the civil war party hold on the state. I would expect issues like the mother and baby homes to be addressed in an honest and open manner. I would hope we could begin to address the conflict/troubles and get into great debate and some form of reconciliation. I believe once unionists see that have they same rights as everyone else any animosity might begin to fade. Especially if given an ethnic minority status.
    Change the flag, anthem etc. Also the crony FF/FG parties will have their channels of nod wink disrupted at least for a time.
    I think a UI would be a great positive for the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,528 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    There won't be a political party in the south supporting the partitionist agenda.

    Partitionists will have to depend on Peter Casey and Kevin Myers types while all the political parties will be coming up with proposals for a UI.
    It will be 'get on the train' or be left in the station time.

    No Irish political party will turn it's back on Unification. That's a big hill to die on.

    They will campaign on the basis of "Not Yet", rather than "No".

    I thought that would be obvious.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    They will campaign on the basis of "Not Yet", rather than "No".

    I thought that would be obvious.

    The can't once it's called.


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