United Ireland Poll - please vote

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

does that include American paid Serbian social media accounts ? :pac::pac::pac:

Yes, Irish people living in Serbia may return home and use their franchise, if they have retained it.

eire4

Seathrun66 wrote: »

SOME in NI are stuck in the past. Very far from the majority.

It was the same siege mentality taking hold before the end of Apartheid South Africa. This too will pass.

The comparison with Apartheid South Africa is very apposite. I also agree with you that in time it will pass.

FrancieBrady

eire4 wrote: »

The comparison with Apartheid South Africa is very apposite. I also agree with you that in time it will pass.

Ian Paisley could bring 100,000 out onto the streets.

There is nothing as stark as the decline in belligerent Unionism/Loyalism.

Seathrun66

6 wrote: »

No doubt it will pass. Hopefully for good. Nobody down here wants to inherit that rubbish.

Couldn't be further from the truth. Consistent polling sows between 65% and 80% in the Republic will vote for a United Ireland.

The vote will pass in the Republic.

gmisk

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ian Paisley could bring 100,000 out onto the streets.

There is nothing as stark as the decline in belligerent Unionism/Loyalism

Thankfully.

I was born in northern ireland and lived there til I was 20ish. It is a basket case, leave it as is imo.
Self governing (to a small degree at least).
one side won't accept being part of ireland, one side won't accept being part of the UK, the majority (I think) in the middle don't really care massively as it doesn't impact their daily lives in general.

Bobeagleburger

Seathrun66 wrote: »

Couldn't be further from the truth. Consistent polling sows between 65% and 80% in the Republic will vote for a United Ireland.

The vote will pass in the Republic.

I'm talking about loyalist riots. Who wants that rubbish? Nobody

Bobeagleburger

gmisk wrote: »

Thankfully.

I was born in northern ireland and lived there til I was 20ish. It is a basket case, leave it as is imo.
Self governing (to a small degree at least).
one side won't accept being part of ireland, one side won't accept being part of the UK, the majority (I think) in the middle don't really care massively as it doesn't impact their daily lives in general.

It will be left to rot and we'll eventually scoop it up after the next generation die off. You're right though, it's a complete basket case. The Republic is light years ahead of it.

FrancieBrady

6 wrote: »

I'm talking about loyalist riots. Who wants that rubbish? Nobody

'Who wants it'?

It is a part of this island and affects Irish people. It is not a case of 'who wants it' it is a case of who wants to deal with it and end it.

blanch152

trixi001 wrote: »

As per the terms of the GFA - NI and RoI only and yes each will need a 50% +1

AS to when it is called, i personally think the grounds have already been met, a UK Prime Minister stated that she couldn't be certain the unionists would win..

"The Times of London reported that British Prime Minister Theresa May has told militant Tory backbencher Jacob Rees Mogg that she will not hold a poll on Irish unification in Northern Ireland as Rees Mogg had called for, as she could not predict that unionists would come out ahead. It was an astonishing admission"

As per the GFA a poll should be called when it appears likely that the poll might have a majority in favour of a UI, then the secretary of state should call the poll..

Also, i believe, that like the Scottish Refernedum, the first poll won't succeed, so the sooner it is called the better..and then 7 years later, the 2nd poll will succeed

If the SOS shares your belief that the first poll won't succeed, then he is legally obliged not to call a poll.

There won't be a second poll seven years later, there is no maximum gap between polls.

Bobeagleburger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Who wants it'?

It is a part of this island and affects Irish people. It is not a case of 'who wants it' it is a case of who wants to deal with it and end it.

It doesn't affect anyone in the Republic. It's a NI issue.

Seathrun66

6 wrote: »

It doesn't affect anyone in the Republic. It's a NI issue.

It affects me. And it affects everyone else in the Republic.

A united Ireland removes all the time-wasting dealing with the UK over Brexit. No protocols, no border discussions. We just deal with the UK as a non-EU 'third country.'

RandomName2

There seem to be few places as bad to annex as Northern Ireland.

A place of no value (no industry or resources) where half the population hates the idea of being annexed (and supported terror groups, either tacitly or directly to the end of no surrender), and the other half predominantly supported terror groups (either tacitly or directly) that spat on our institutions.

It is a financial hole. It is an underdeveloped relic where parochial petty grudges still hold sway. It is a country where the two main parties have given succor to extremists, can barely agree with each other, and hardly manage their own affairs without having to have others step in to stop them tearing each others' throats out. These two parties have endlessly had completely contradictory positions: that the DUP wanted Brexit, but also frictionless trade with both ROI and the UK is just the end of a long list.

It even has worse weather.

trixi001

6 wrote: »

It will be left to rot and we'll eventually scoop it up after the next generation die off. You're right though, it's a complete basket case. The Republic is light years ahead of it.

In certain ways the South is ahead of the North and in certain ways it is years behind

The North has a much better Salary/cost of living balance - buying a house isn't an almost impossible task for young people in the North. Homelessness doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much of an issue in the North

The NHS is simply fantastic (yes, it has problems, but it is a lot better than the HSE - which spends a lot more per capital on health than the UK, and yet still doens't provide free health care - I find the acceptance of paying €50 to visit a doctor absurd - does this not just lead to people trying to home treat and health problems not being caught before they get worse?

Inequality across the "state" - The West & North West are often forgotten about by the Dublin government..The South is far too focused on what happens in Dublin..

Yes, Some inequalities exist across the North, but not the same extent.

Obviously, there are many problems in the North, a lot stemming from the orange/green spilts, but the North has come a long way in the last 20-30 years..and has the potential to be a great place, if people can see past their issues and recognise the massive potential the NI Protocol has for investment etc.

FrancieBrady

6 wrote: »

It doesn't affect anyone in the Republic. It's a NI issue.

:D Yeh right.

6

6 wrote: »

It doesn't affect anyone in the Republic. It's a NI issue.

Of course it affects the Republic and peace on the island. What are you, 6?

RandomName2

trixi001 wrote: »

Obviously, there are many problems in the North, a lot stemming from the orange/green spilts, but the North has come a long way in the last 20-30 years..and has the potential to be a great place, if people can see past their issues and recognise the massive potential the NI Protocol has for investment etc.

I'm sure that the city of Mosul will come a long way in 20-30 years. That's not really saying much.

NI requires several billion euro every year to stop it from sinking.

I don't really see why that should be Dublin's responsibility. Half the population of NI don't want anything to do with Dublin, and the other half kind of blotted their copy book when they condoned.. all that occurred.

If the two main parties were SDLP and Aliance, if it wasn't a financial sink, if the population were more open to the idea of unification, then I think unification would be a very valid consideration. As it stands, this manifest destiny seems to be vain glorious, short-sighted, and asking for trouble.

gmisk

6 wrote: »

It will be left to rot and we'll eventually scoop it up after the next generation die off. You're right though, it's a complete basket case. The Republic is light years ahead of it.

Who knows, I can't see there being a vote on a UI anytime soon, especially as the DUP etc have a good idea what the outcome would be....
Why would ROI want it? The financial drain, the unionists....

I will always have a soft spot for NI but it is still horrendously divided and backwards in some respects. In truth my folks generation were a lot more affected by the troubles than me, my mum was a nurse in Belfast at the height of things, my dad was literally ran off building sites for being a catholic.

It had a real chance of becoming a more prosperous place during the whole brexit thing, achieving the best of both to a degree! but as usual small mindedness managed to screw that up as well.

It has changed a lot but a lot further to go...I am from near Ballymena.......it is still like stepping into a time warp in many ways tbh. There is a reason why so many people leave.

gmisk

RandomName2 wrote: »

I'm sure that the city of Mosul will come a long way in 20-30 years. That's not really saying much.

NI requires several billion euro every year to stop it from sinking.

I don't really see why that should be Dublin's responsibility. Half the population of NI don't want anything to do with Dublin, and the other half kind of blotted their copy book when they condoned.. all that occurred.

If the two main parties were SDLP and Aliance, if it wasn't a financial sink, if the population were more open to the idea of unification, then I think unification would be a very valid consideration. As it stands, this manifest destiny seems to be vain glorious, short-sighted, and asking for trouble.

What do you mean by that?
You really are seemingly lumping everyone into one camp or the other based on religion or what?
I don't think that is helpful.

I don't disagree with the last paragraph to a degree

blanch152

RandomName2 wrote: »

If the two main parties were SDLP and Aliance, if it wasn't a financial sink, if the population were more open to the idea of unification, then I think unification would be a very valid consideration. As it stands, this manifest destiny seems to be vain glorious, short-sighted, and asking for trouble.

If all of that was true, the people of Northern Ireland wouldn't want or need a united Ireland.

Hence, it is in Sinn Fein's interest to keep the sectarian tug-of-war going, to promote division, to use divisive language, in the hope that one day a sectarian headcount will give them the outcome they hope for.

wicklowstevo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Who wants it'?

It is a part of this island and affects Irish people. It is not a case of 'who wants it' it is a case of who wants to deal with it and end it.

not according to the poll a the top of this thread

RandomName2

gmisk wrote: »

What do you mean by that?
You really are seemingly lumping everyone into one camp or the other based on religion or what?
I don't think that is helpful.

Not based on religion. I couldn't care less if someone is Catholic or Protestant.

I mean that both sides behaved abominably during The Troubles. Notwithstanding who started it, genuine greivances, or actions prompted by justified fears, I find that far too many incidents were abhorrent.

That's not too much of an issue in itself. A lot of countries have unpleasant, or even terrible acts in their histories.

The problem is that while all sides agreed to lay down arms in 1998, that seemed to be a product of necessity rather than genuinely seeing that their respective actions had been absolutely immoral. This is underscored by the two main parties in the Assembly being the more sectarian of the options available to that electorate. There seems to be an undercurrent where the respective sides consider their own actions to have been legitimate: 'it was war', with any contrition seemingly insincere and grudging. The paramilitary groups lurk in the wings, guarded by communities who keep a policy of homerta to protect those blots on humanity. Far too many apologists exist. There were no trials, there was no penance, and the entire place is still steeped in the culture of opposing clans.

While I am willing to tolerate this as a necessary evil for the sake of peace, it doesn't mean I rush to it with open arms.

And sure scratch the place and you have riots, death threats, and messages produced by balaclavad individuals promising fresh campaigns with their new knock-off improv group.

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

not according to the poll a the top of this thread

Over 55% in that poll (I didn't vote in it BTW) want a UI. 43% want to leave it as is.

Not sure what point you are making.

BluePlanet

Poll is a bit of a joke.
Why would you split the YES vote into 2 choices?
Reason: to try and present the outcome as undecided or against a UI.

RandomName2

blanch152 wrote: »

If all of that was true, the people of Northern Ireland wouldn't want or need a united Ireland.

That would traditionally be the case, though there would be, perhaps, practical imperative in a post Brexit world.

blanch152 wrote: »

Hence, it is in Sinn Fein's interest to keep the sectarian tug-of-war going, to promote division, to use divisive language, in the hope that one day a sectarian headcount will give them the outcome they hope for.

Well not just Sinn Fein. Clearly division is the lifeblood of loyalist sympathies as well. Just as Sinn Fein is defined by its antipathy to the existence of Northern Ireland, so is the DUP or UUP defined by their support of that state.

wicklowstevo

for some one who puts so much effort into this thread you haven't bothered voting ? that's laughable

21.76 % is the number your looking for ,

your whataboutry figure is a poor effort at statistical manipulation hat is below your usual level of posting.

also no telling how many of those 21.76 percent are paid internet bots and trolls controlled by unknown persons in unknown places.

Bobeagleburger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

:D Yeh right.

Great response.

It's a fact. Not our problem to sort out.

FrancieBrady

BluePlanet wrote: »

Poll is a bit of a joke.
Why would you split the YES vote into 2 choices?
Reason: to try and present the outcome as undecided or against a UI.

That was patently obvious from the get go and why I didn't bother voting in it. It's as reflective as a steamed up mirror.

FrancieBrady

6 wrote: »

Great response.

It's a fact. Not our problem to sort out.

That's not your decision to make, thankfully.

Bobeagleburger

Seathrun66 wrote: »

It affects me. And it affects everyone else in the Republic.

A united Ireland removes all the time-wasting dealing with the UK over Brexit. No protocols, no border discussions. We just deal with the UK as a non-EU 'third country.'

Very black and white way to look at it.

It may remove those issues, but instead adds other issues. Half a population that doesn't want to be here, and some of them will fight for that cause. Also, there expense of inheriting. We can't afford it. Who's going to tackle the overloaded NI public service?

FrancieBrady

wicklowstevo wrote: »

for some one who puts so much effort into this thread you haven't bothered voting ? that's laughable

21.76 % is the number your looking for ,

your whataboutry figure is a poor effort at statistical manipulation hat is below your usual level of posting.

also no telling how many of those 21.76 percent are paid internet bots and trolls controlled by unknown persons in unknown places.

Apparently I am one of those in the pay of the Shinners and I didn't vote. The conspiracy theory isn't going terribly well Stevo.

Bobeagleburger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's not your decision to make, thankfully.

Or yours thankfully.

Hopefully we'll get to see a UI in our lifetime. I reckon by 2050. Anyone giving odds.

guyfo

In a perfect world a border poll would be a good idea. In reality all you need to do is just look at the news over the last few days and it should tell you everything you need to know know.

People close to the border have been waiting for one side or the other to kick off since the Brexit vote. A few months after some small changes and the loyalist terrorist groups have dropped support for the Good Friday Agreement and people are now rioting in the streets.

Keep it as it was would have been the best option, gping forward it doesn't look like that will be possible thanks to England and Wales forcing the UK to leave the EU. Worrying times ahead.

Blazer

6 wrote: »

We can't afford it. Who's going to tackle the overloaded NI public service?

Will the magic money tree SF wave around not cover it?
Not a chance SF supporters will pay for it anyway once you put it to them.
If they’re not going to pay for water charges or a tv license there isn’t a chance in hell they’ll pay towards UI once they realise the true costs of it.
And some made up nonsense about how many tourists will suddenly start coming here won’t cut it.

Bobeagleburger

Alena Jealous Possum wrote: »

Of course it affects the Republic and peace on the island. What are you, 6?

Loyalists thrashing their own neighborhood?Doesn't affect the south, nor should it. Let them at it. We've moved on from that rubbish. They are decades behind.

Bobeagleburger

Blazer wrote: »

Will the magic money tree SF wave around not cover it?
Not a chance SF supporters will pay for it anyway once you put it to them.
If they’re not going to pay for water charges or a tv license there isn’t a chance in hell they’ll pay towards UI once they realise the true costs of it.
And some made up nonsense about how many tourists will suddenly start coming here won’t cut it.

A UI will never happen until it makes economic sense. The Brits are keeping it afloat. We can't afford to.

If someone has figures on any proposals on paying for it stick them up. Interested to see them.

Floppybits

How do the business leaders (if there are any) in the North feel about brexit and what is going on at the moment? I think if I was business leader I would be fuming at the DUP and their we want the same as the rest of the UK because it looked like for a time there that Northern Ireland was going to get access to both EU and UK Markets but the DUP as usual said no. Imagine that advantage that would have given Northern Ireland.

trixi001

Floppybits wrote: »

How do the business leaders (if there are any) in the North feel about brexit and what is going on at the moment? I think if I was business leader I would be fuming at the DUP and their we want the same as the rest of the UK because it looked like for a time there that Northern Ireland was going to get access to both EU and UK Markets but the DUP as usual said no. Imagine that advantage that would have given Northern Ireland.

All depends on the business - some are fuming as like you said, the advantages the North could have are fantastic from an economic point of view..the foreign investment we could attract...

Other businesses are devastated as the protocol is directly affecting their business in negative ways - can't get supplies over from GB etc..

JimmyVik

See the comments for the regular stories about the North in the Journal are changing the last few days.
It has gone from people being very vocal in support of a UI, to a lot of people now commenting about the trouble up the North and we dont want any of that.

trixi001

6 wrote: »

Loyalists thrashing their own neighborhood?Doesn't affect the south, nor should it. Let them at it. We've moved on from that rubbish. They are decades behind.

Of course it affects the south - the "troubles" in the North affecting tourism across the whole island.,,

The riots also mean Stormont are focused on this, and North South Co-operation could be affected etc.

Regardless of whether you like it or not what happens in the North affects the South and vice versa - we share a border, we are all Irish Citizens (or entitled to be)

Riots happen everywhere, they aren't unique to Belfast....look at Tallaght..or does that not affect you either, as they were trashing their own neighbourhood, so only affects the people of Tallaght?
https://lovindublin.com/news/update-nine-people-arrested-after-lidl-incident-that-made-headlines-worldwide

blanch152

6 wrote: »

A UI will never happen until it makes economic sense. The Brits are keeping it afloat. We can't afford to.

If someone has figures on any proposals on paying for it stick them up. Interested to see them.

Don't worry, apparently we have a cast-iron case that we can take under some unknown international law to the International Court of Justice that will make the British pay for it even though they have to agree to go to the ICJ. Yes, you heard it here.

blanch152

RandomName2 wrote: »

That would traditionally be the case, though there would be, perhaps, practical imperative in a post Brexit world.



Well not just Sinn Fein. Clearly division is the lifeblood of loyalist sympathies as well. Just as Sinn Fein is defined by its antipathy to the existence of Northern Ireland, so is the DUP or UUP defined by their support of that state.

Yes, indeed, two halves of the same rotten apple.

FrancieBrady

trixi001 wrote: »

Of course it affects the south - the "troubles" in the North affecting tourism across the whole island.,,

The riots also mean Stormont are focused on this, and North South Co-operation could be affected etc.

Regardless of whether you like it or not what happens in the North affects the South and vice versa - we share a border, we are all Irish Citizens (or entitled to be)

Riots happen everywhere, they aren't unique to Belfast....look at Tallaght..or does that not affect you either, as they were trashing their own neighbourhood, so only affects the people of Tallaght?
https://lovindublin.com/news/update-nine-people-arrested-after-lidl-incident-that-made-headlines-worldwide

It's lazy, turn a blind eye partitionism. No other description fits.

Bobeagleburger

trixi001 wrote: »

Of course it affects the south - the "troubles" in the North affecting tourism across the whole island.,,

The riots also mean Stormont are focused on this, and North South Co-operation could be affected etc.

Regardless of whether you like it or not what happens in the North affects the South and vice versa - we share a border, we are all Irish Citizens (or entitled to be)

Riots happen everywhere, they aren't unique to Belfast....look at Tallaght..or does that not affect you either, as they were trashing their own neighbourhood, so only affects the people of Tallaght?
https://lovindublin.com/news/update-nine-people-arrested-after-lidl-incident-that-made-headlines-worldwide

Riots in Shankhill doesn't affect the south. That's over the top. It does not affect tourism in the south. Where did you get that data?

DonegalBay

6 wrote: »

Riots in Shankhill doesn't affect the south. That's over the top. It does not affect tourism in the south. Where did you get that data?

As someone who works in tourism that's takes groups on All-Ireland trips, yes it will. People who might have gone North are more likely to leave out the whole of the Northern half of Ireland, having a huge impact on places like Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, maybe even Mayo. Now maybe you don't count that as the South, but it is. It would be back to the staple Dublin-Kerry-Galway tour route so yes a return to violence in the North would have a huge mpact on Tourism in the Republic.

Junkyard Tom

Seathrun66 wrote: »

A united Ireland removes all the time-wasting dealing with the UK over Brexit. No protocols, no border discussions. We just deal with the UK as a non-EU 'third country.'

Exactly. British jurisdiction is the problem and always will be until it is ended. Former Unionists in a United Ireland will just get on with it and we won't make the same mistakes their forefathers did in the 1920's.

Also, when the time comes for a vote on a United Ireland most of the world will be supportive. I suspect the majority of the UK will support a UI too putting the partitionists in a hilarious position of not supporting the unification of our people/country while the English, Americans, and continental Europeans do.

When the time comes the momentum will be unstoppable.

Bobeagleburger

DonegalBay wrote: »

As someone who works in tourism that's takes groups on All-Ireland trips, yes it will. People who might have gone North are more likely to leave out the whole of the Northern half of Ireland, having a huge impact on places like Donegal, Sligo, Leitrim, maybe even Mayo. Now maybe you don't count that as the South, but it is. It would be back to the staple Dublin-Kerry-Galway tour route so yes a return to violence in the North would have a huge mpact on Tourism in the Republic.

You are basically saying it won't affect tourism overall, but will impact certain areas. The tourists will still come to Ireland and spend money. I think we are agreeing on the general point.

By the way, I don't believe the four counties you mentioned will be affected whatsoever by the current rioting. Why would thugs on Shankhill make a difference to Mayo?


If you're talking about a full return to violence in the North, that's a different conservation entirely. Not sure anyone mentioned that.

Seathrun66

wicklowstevo wrote: »

not according to the poll a the top of this thread

57% in the above poll want a UI within ten years. Lower than polling in the Republic over the last few years as Boards.ie has a younger demographic. The older generation in the Republic having consistently polled higher in terms of support for a UI.

Bobeagleburger

Seathrun66 wrote: »

57% in the above poll want a UI within ten years. Lower than polling in the Republic over the last few years as Boards.ie has a younger demographic. The older generation in the Republic having consistently polled higher in terms of support for a UI.

The younger demographic know they'll be the ones paying for it.

Also, they don't have the same romanticism of a UI as some of the older generations (myself included in that category!).

Seathrun66

6 wrote: »

Very black and white way to look at it.

It may remove those issues, but instead adds other issues. Half a population that doesn't want to be here, and some of them will fight for that cause. Also, there expense of inheriting. We can't afford it. Who's going to tackle the overloaded NI public service?

An appropriate response to your similar lack of nuance.

But we can afford it. Plenty of cash in the country, EU and US cash on the way and short-term UK financial obligations.

It's coming. Preparing for it is what we need to do.

Seathrun66

guyfo wrote: »

In a perfect world a border poll would be a good idea. In reality all you need to do is just look at the news over the last few days and it should tell you everything you need to know know.

People close to the border have been waiting for one side or the other to kick off since the Brexit vote. A few months after some small changes and the loyalist terrorist groups have dropped support for the Good Friday Agreement and people are now rioting in the streets.

Keep it as it was would have been the best option, gping forward it doesn't look like that will be possible thanks to England and Wales forcing the UK to leave the EU. Worrying times ahead.

Yep, that there's orchestrated violence intended to warn people off having a border poll. That attempted intimidation doesn't work on me. And nor should it on you.