F1 2021 :Round 1 Bahrain

Faugheen

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

That isn't always the only way to gain an advantage.

The thing I can make out from all the talk on Sky was that the track limits issue needs sorting. Whether it is Practice, Qualification, or the race itself it needs to be the same limits and the same enforcement - from what I got from Brundle they left it open for the race in the notes.

I think we can agree there should be a track and they should stick to it. It should be pulled up in the race as quickly as they did for qualifying yesterday.

I’m going to spell it out again.

You can’t overtake a car while off the track. Period.

There is no ambiguity on that.

This is it

Faugheen wrote: »

But Max gained a massive advantage by going off the track, he gained a position.

Why do you have an issue with this rule now? It’s been in place for years.

How are you not understanding that posters aren't talking about the overtaking, it's the run wide at turn 4. I've no issue with it myself but why you're being deliberately obtuse, I've no idea.

Cool_CM

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I think we can agree there should be a track and they should stick to it. It should be pulled up in the race as quickly as they did for qualifying yesterday.

From the clip that they showed of Bottas to mention that he got fastest lap, it looks looks like he was off track on than one too.

flazio

Norris explained it well on F1 YouTube a moment ago. You can go wide at turn 4 if you don't gain an advantage. In qualifying, lap time is an advantage, in the race the position is the advantage.

This is it

Faugheen wrote: »

I’m going to spell it out again.

You can’t overtake a car while off the track. Period.

There is no ambiguity on that.

Show us where someone said you can overtake while off the track.

Gaoth Laidir

Faugheen wrote: »

But Max gained a massive advantage by going off the track, he gained a position.

Why do you have an issue with this rule now? It’s been in place for years.

Jesus, it's been in place for years and yet Lewis claimed he didn't know about it.

Max got understeer just as he overtook and that took him off. He immediately gave it back. Why do you have an issue with that? You're completely choosing to ignore the advantage that Lewis accrued early in the race by breaking this limit.

Burkie1203

Inquitus wrote: »

Qually, lap deleted, Race, only penalised if gaining an advantage, which usually means overtaking, they only got involved because Horner whines like a......

so pitting early and using the fresh tyres to put in quick laps to close the gap isnt gaining an advantage?

artanevilla

Max's point of being allowed to continue and taking a 5 second penalty, best case, he makes up +5 and wins, worst case, he doesnt and is relegated to 2nd.

Faugheen

This is it wrote: »

How are you not understanding that posters aren't talking about the overtaking, it's the run wide at turn 4. I've no issue with it myself but why you're being deliberately obtuse, I've no idea.

I’m not being obtuse. People are only complaining because Max had to give back a position.

Why are you deliberately ignoring that?

Gaoth Laidir

flazio wrote: »

Norris explained it well on F1 YouTube a moment ago. You can go wide at turn 4 if you don't gain an advantage. In qualifying, lap time is an advantage, in the race the position is the advantage.

So gaining a few tenths lap after lap is not gaining an advantage?

McFly85

skipper_G wrote: »

But that's not what happens. They do not have somebody monitoring every car at every corner for track limits. They do not have sensors in the tarmac to automatically detect them. What actually happens is, the race director forwards suspected infringements to the stewards for investigation. Assuming that was triggered By Red Bull's commenting on it via team radio, Hamilton was then instructed to stop or risk a black and white flag and subsequently a 5 second time penalty.

To be fair, they should be monitoring it. All weekend turn 4 was being singled out for track limits.

I’m not saying Mercedes cheated, I am saying that a system that relies on one team calling it out after multiple laps when every millisecond can count is pretty poor.

Inquitus

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

So gaining a few tenths lap after lap is not gaining an advantage?

Not per the usual race rules, no it's not.

Gaoth Laidir

Faugheen wrote: »

I’m not being obtuse. People are only complaining because Max had to give back a position.

Why are you deliberately ignoring that?

Where did anyone complain that he had to give it back?

Faugheen

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Jesus, it's been in place for years and yet Lewis claimed he didn't know about it.

Max got understeer just as he overtook and that took him off. He immediately gave it back. Why do you have an issue with that? You're completely choosing to ignore the advantage that Lewis accrued early in the race by breaking this limit.

Hamilton didn’t know about what? Overtaking a car while off the track?

I must have missed that. When did that happen?

Gaoth Laidir

Faugheen wrote: »

Hamilton didn’t know about what? Overtaking a car while off the track?

I must have missed that. When did that happen?

He didn't know about the track limits. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

Faugheen

This is it wrote: »

Show us where someone said you can overtake while off the track.

Sure thing.

quokula wrote: »

Hamilton did it dozens of times and got a meaningless warning. Verstappen did it once and was told to hand certain victory that he’d earned over to Lewis.

Comparing track limits to overtaking while off the track. I’ll accept your hands up and acknowledgement when you’re ready.

lolie

FourFourRED wrote: »

He had his chances. Wasn’t able to take it. Maybe next time.

Regardless, what a season we may have in store for us. It would be great to see a competitive race every week.

I dont think much of Hamilton the person and still want Max to beat him this year but you cannot deny what a great driver he is, no other driver would've made those tyres last like that.
This is unfortunately what we didn't get to see between Senna and Schumacher.

Faugheen

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

He didn't know about the track limits. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

The rule I have been saying was in place for years was OVERTAKING while off the track.

You came back and said ‘well Lewis knew about it for years and got away with it.’

Show me where Hamilton overtook a car while off the track please?

mista11

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

He didn't know about the track limits. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

The rule has changed this year, last year you could go over the white lines on all the corners except what was called out by the stewards before the race

This year they are calling out certain corners but also saying that if you keep going over any of the white lines youll get a warning

The rule about overtaking is a differnet rule which has always been around

quokula

Faugheen wrote: »

The rule I have been saying was in place for years was OVERTAKING while off the track.

You came back and said ‘well Lewis knew about it for years and got away with it.’

Show me where Hamilton overtook a car while off the track please?

Can you point to the bit in the regulations that says gaining an advantage is ok but overtaking isn’t?

It’ll take you a while to find it since it doesn’t exist.

Gaoth Laidir

Faugheen wrote: »

The rule I have been saying was in place for years was OVERTAKING while off the track.

You came back and said ‘well Lewis knew about it for years and got away with it.’

Show me where Hamilton overtook a car while off the track please?

Go around in circles if you want. I was talking about Lewis on the radio stating he didn't know about the track limits at that turn, after breaking it throughout the race. No way he didn't know about it beforehand. They are all told exactly where the limits are, and others were penalised for it yesterday.

Faugheen

quokula wrote: »

Can you point to the bit in the regulations that says gaining an advantage is ok but overtaking isn’t?

It’ll take you a while to find it since it doesn’t exist.

Can you point to me where it says overtaking while off the track is ok because that doesn’t exist.

Funny how you think track limits that was being done by nearly every other car except for RB was cheating yet Max should have been allowed to overtake a car while off the track.

I completely understand that Max had to give the position back. It was just coincidence it happened at turn 4.

But I would love to know how many times during the race that Hamilton exceeded track limits and what sort of time advantage he gained when they’re all added up.

Faugheen

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Go around in circles if you want. I was talking about Lewis on the radio stating he didn't know about the track limits at that turn, after breaking it throughout the race. No way he didn't know about it beforehand. They are all told exactly where the limits are, and others were penalised for it yesterday.

Exactly, yesterday.

There was nothing in the notes about today, according to Sky before the race, then the stewards decided to clamp down.

Anything else?

Gaoth Laidir

Strawberry Milkshake wrote: »

I completely understand that Max had to give the position back. It was just coincidence it happened at turn 4.

But I would love to know how many times during the race that Hamilton exceeded track limits and what sort of time advantage he gained when they’re all added up.

More than the gap he won the race by, I would reckon.

Gaoth Laidir

Faugheen wrote: »

Exactly, yesterday.

There was nothing in the notes about today, according to Sky before the race, then the stewards decided to clamp down.

Anything else?

So why did they warn him of a black and white flag then?

flazio

flazio wrote: »

Norris explained it well on F1 YouTube a moment ago. You can go wide at turn 4 if you don't gain an advantage. In qualifying, lap time is an advantage, in the race the position is the advantage.

So making up hundreds of a second by exceeding limits during race is allowed then?

Did bottas gain an extra point for fastest lap by exceeding them?

This thread is going faster than Verstappen

Faugheen

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

So why did they warn him of a black and white flag then?

Because they clamped down when everyone was overdoing it, which is my guess. Toto alluded to that in his post-race on Sky.

From what I can see, Red Bull were the only ones not doing it.

quokula

Faugheen wrote: »

Can you point to me where it says overtaking while off the track is ok because that doesn’t exist.

Funny how you think track limits that was being done by nearly every other car except for RB was cheating yet Max should have been allowed to overtake a car while off the track.

It’s in the 2021 sporting regulations, you can google it and download a pdf.

The bit about track limits is under section 27, and says the following:

Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason.
Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

At no point does it make a special case of overtaking, it is very specific about gaining an advantage. Mercedes gained a massive advantage by ignoring this rule for half the race. They were not asked to give it back. Verstappen gained an advantage once. He was asked to give it back. It was a blatantly inconsistent application of the rules and it changed the outcome of the race.

Alun

lolie wrote: »

Maybe you could try this if you know where to point the dish.
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058164131/3/#post116711543

I'd need a motorized dish at least and probably a bigger one too.